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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 9:53:05 PM
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Slobber straps are a double strap of leather with a hole in both ends. They are normally used with a snaffle and mecate reins. The slobber straps are folded and fit through the rings on the bit. They are designed to be used with a bit that has at least 3" rings so that there is room for the headstall and slobber straps.
The rein is attached through both straps with a half hitch knot which allows for easy adjustment and removal -- no matter how hard the rein gets pulled, this knot will easily loosen.
Slobber straps are especially useful to avoid wear on your mecate reins and they keep the reins out of the water when your horse gets a drink. The weight of the slobber straps assist with the mecate reins in providing an instant release (reward) to the horse when training. This is essential when you consider that you only have 2-3 seconds to reward your horse when you get appropriate behavior before the horse looses the concept of relating the behavior to the reward.
HBC is Horse Behaviour Course.Sorry,not uneducated at all, I should have been clearer! I was very lucky, when I bought The Behavior dvd's there was an offer where you got the success ones for free
Sorry you're layed up, I hope you enjoy the dvd's |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 23 Oct 2008 9:59:00 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 10:05:33 PM
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Good question Chrystal Fire !
We always rode in happy mouth bits but changed to English Hackamores for our long ride to Jordan so that the horses would be as comfortable as possible and could drink easily from streams etc en route and graze effectively ( we used to stop for 10 mins every hour for a grass snack in all the countries where there was grass).
We loved these hackamores and Sealy hasn't worn a bit since we got back, she is fab to ride responds almost entirely to seat aids but does neck rein, she is agile and spins on a sixpence BUT as you say I don't always get correct neck flexion when doing lateral work, I may well just be uneducated in the correct technique but the one thing that we don't seem to get as accurately without a bit is correct lateral neck flexion.
For this reason I decided to do the basic schooling of my 4yo, Bryn, in a Happy mouth bit.. straight bar eggbutt snaffle, then, when he was established, use a Hackamore. Because of this I ended up doing a pleasure ride this year at the Red Dragon on him in a bit.... GOD... how bad did I feel when he had to try to slurp past his bit when he drank from streams  .
BTW we have recently changed from an English Hackamore to a very light s shaped alloy hackamore from Specialised Saddle people Judith and Alan Stirling (Judith S on here). These are lovely and light and very very mild , I would say milder than the English Hackamore as they are not fixed where they join the Cheekpiece so have play at this point and thus cause v little poll pressure.
Cheers
Lisa 
v nice pics btw |
lisa |
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 12:28:33 AM
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hhhmmm i've been reading this thread with a bit of interest & thought I'd drop my 2 cents in too,
I live here in Australia & have been riding in a rope headstall since I was about 7 years old, i feel Safer in a rope headstall than I do in a bridle, all the rope headstalls i use i made myself, according to the original ones we ever came across which i call a Trevor bonny due to the man my familly & horsey friends first learnt how to tie them & use them from.
Parelli's natural horsemanship came a few years after all that, when he came here to aus I went to see a few of his days, not bad stuff, what I find really weird about Parelli stuff is how commercial it has gotten to be.. anyways I'll try not to whinge to much as horse riding for me is all about learning whats best for your horse,
Personally My Family & I have advocated bitless riding for many years but there is sometimes very good reason for riding in a traditional bridle, I have found I can be very soft with the bridle now due to my years of headstall riding,
the first pony I educated by myself when I was 14 has never had a piece of steel between her teeth I promised her many years ago she would never have that, I have never broken that pact with her, her daughter i did mouth but still ride in a headstall as she dosn't need the bit.
My stallion I ride both in a headstall & a thom thumb snaffle, it really depends on the activity I'm doing with him, I haven't had any issues with either on him,
I have come across a few horses that I chose to re educate into a headstall because of the trouble I could see the bit was causing, 1 pony I redid a few years back had been beaten by his previous owners & had had his mouth jagged around so that he hated the control factor of the bridle, when I tried him in the headstall after a few hours of ground work he accepted this solution positively, no more headshaking or bucking & rearing, he even went on to being a successful jumping pony in a headstall, his new owners couldn't believe the change in him when I showed them the difference of bridle & headstall, suffice to say that little boy is one happier pony
I have seen my father train horses to carry their necks like a true dressage horse while ridden in the headstall, so I know it can be done, for me I would prefer to see my mare with her head out & down, with a more relaxed head carriage, yet again it really comes down to the type of horse/pony you ride or play with, my mums gelding is a high head carrier he really likes to look where he's going & my mare has pretty long neck for her proportions so she prefer out & long & cantering, as she's what my dad would say canti levered..
Just remember that when trying something new it may take a little bit of extra work to get used to it, or for the full effects to be seen,
thats why when starting a horse I try & get them used to pretty much the whole kit & kaboodle,
I train in headstall & mouth them & ride bareback & in the saddle, & I also play the drunken game with them too, this has been invaluable for my pony as we used to work in a trail riding place & she had young people running up to her & literally throwing themselfs at her, I never once thought she would react negatively to that, due to my initial desensitising to that,
I fall all over them, half jump up fall down their sides, hang off necks
anyways sorry I should stop typing & proving how crazy & uncoordinated my writing can be
anyways good luck to any who choose to go bitless, |
     
Last Picture Taken by Matt Bennet |
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Arabmare
Gold Member
United Kingdom
628 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 08:55:35 AM
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Thanks Crystal fire and Deboniks! I'd love to ride like that all the time. Just don't seem to have the time to see if shantih will jump with it. Well I know she will jump with it but will I have brakes lol!
What is this Silversand? I hear about it all the time and it seems really interesting. I follow my own methods really, read Monty Roberts Kelly marks and have watched a bit of Parelli but don't follow anything religiously! Just add what I think is right for my horses. |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 11:35:08 AM
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Fascinating thread, what an introduction to AL for me, brilliant!
That's very interesting about the hackamore Lisa, supports what happened to me in Tuscany then.
I would not take every horse back to the rope halter before progressing to a bit. Mainly because if I need to correct heaviness and leaning (sometimes with some bumping on the rein) I feel more comfortable doing that without a bit. Then when the bit goes back in the job's half done already. Mind you, we did some interesting long-lining on a Tom Widdicombe clinic, which is how he approaches getting a horse to understand the bit.
I'm not out to advertise Silversand, I don't think that would be right, but you could have a read on www.silversand.com.au . There are clinics all over the place in the UK you could go and watch next year. I always think watch before booking your horse on anything...
My friend is a keen blogger, and he writes up all his horsemanship experiences. This is his latest http://glenatron.livejournal.com/150588.html
On this clinic people happened to be mainly working with the bit, but that is just the stage they are at. If you've got time and a nice cuppa beside you, have a look round his other blogs, they are very readable and there is quite a lot of bitless work as well. |
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Nicki
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2008 : 1:22:17 PM
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Thanks Deboniks, one good thing to being laid up - I've read loads of great things on the forum. I never had time before to look at it. I'd just dial up and drool at the Sales pages when I was supposed to be working !!
Crystal Fire - you've got me all curious about Silversand again, might try and look Lisa up and see if she is still about ... |
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heatherr
Platinum Member
England
1882 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2008 : 9:18:36 PM
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Some really ineresting input on this thread. My brain is hurting a little though due to all the options I had never previously considered. I have never actually liked the idea of having a piece of metal/rubber/whatever in a horse's mouth but had also never really considered what other options might be available until now. I've been riding horses for well over 30 years, so it proves there is always much to learn  |
Heather
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Brigid Fairman
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 09:51:58 AM
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| Having discovered the Dr. Cook I will never go back to putting a bit in a horse's mouth. I have used it on 4 very different Arabians with great success. I school and race ride in it. Horses do not need a heavy contact to lift their backs and work in a frame - how I hate that term "on the bit". Arabians with their small mouths and thick tongues often do not cope well with bits. |
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ACGODFREY
Silver Member
United Kingdom
440 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 6:38:57 PM
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Slightly off track, but can anyone who schools or does dressage in a Dr Cooks bridle let me know how you deal with a horse being very heavy/dead on one side of it and hyper sensitive on the other. My boy always leaned and held onto the left side of the bit (along with chomping on it and constantly fussing) and is now doing something like bearing down on the left rein in the bitless. I was taught not to allow a horse to lean and therefore to give away the contact but if I do that he goes around with nose poked out to the right. He has only just started doing this after using it for 6 months, but with the awful weather this is the first month of schooling several times a week so has now become apparent. When working on the left rein it is almost impossible to get a contact on the right rein because he seems hyper sensitive to it and tilts his nose to the right, thus making the heavy contact on the left rein worse.
Any ideas or anyone I could PM directly, please let me know.
Thanks
Anne
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 6:42:04 PM
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I agree horses don't need a heavy contact to work in an outline, nor do they need a bit. But... what's the definition of a correct contact? For me it is certainly not what I was taught years ago in my posh dressage lessons. Now, if working with or without the bit, I'm aiming for just the weight of the rein.
What is on their head shouldn't dictate whether or not they work correctly should it?
When I went for some classical riding instruction I was told you have to use a "supporting rein" as a stage in training before you could let the hands down and have the horse work in self-carriage. Mind you, the instructor I have now doesn't agree with that. I don't agree with it either, having seen people who never, ever, hang on to the front end of their horses like that, and can have them working beautifully. |
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 2:05:30 PM
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For those who were curious, here are some pics of our 2 ring riding halter.
The nose band is a little big and rides up his face, but that is a size issue rather than anything I think. It seems very similar to the Enduro bridle from Lodge Ropes, except for the chin strap bit on the E bridle.
Please excuse the sleepy horse and the dirty stable walls. He poos down them. Also, the photos are rubbish - it was dark and I couldn't see what I was taking, and he kept trying to eat the camera as a bedtime snack!
Braided noseband was $5 extra - well worth it!
Please ignore the 'dobbin' here - he is an arab, I promise!
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Kelly
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Caro23
Gold Member
United Kingdom
617 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 4:36:21 PM
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Ohh Kelly - I have just ordered one of the enduro halters for Dulcie from Lodge Ropes. I always rode her in an English Hackamore but as she has got older and stronger I found it increasingly difficult to stop and had a bad experience in the middle of nowhere not being able to calm her down - I was exhausted and came home to find a bump on her nose where I had hung on. I would normally consider myself to not be a heavy handed rider and was so upset that I may have hurt her. After far more flat work she does now wear a hanging cheek myler snaffle because it fits her mouth unlike so many bits I tried. I would say she is happier bitless though, I just worry about the hacks when she gets very excited 
P.S. Please all send Dulcie big hugs- she was a very poorly girl at the weekend |
Caro
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Edited by - Caro23 on 27 Oct 2008 4:55:51 PM |
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 7:39:12 PM
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Hugs to Dulcie1 I hope it's nothing serious, and that she feels well again soon.
xx |
Kelly
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heatherr
Platinum Member
England
1882 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 9:34:15 PM
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| Oh Caro, big hugs to Dulcie. Hope she is feeling better. |
Heather
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 02:08:13 AM
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For those that are fairly new to bitless & are thinking of using the rope headstall type of accessorie,
I would advise doing the Seven games (parelli) or something very similar as this teachers a different way of stopping or slowing your horse down in an emergency,
I personally educate my horses to respond to a 1 rein stop, (lots of Flexing on the ground) when you turn a horse around in a circle you disengage the hindquaters & this is a great way of stopping or calming your horse in a rope headstall in an emergency (sorry if this has been noted before but i just wanted to reiterate) |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 1:56:03 PM
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These new halters are very pretty but it does worry me why people are altering the original design? There is a reason the original rope halters are made the way they are It seems to me equipment like rope halters and even bare back pads are now being designed to fit 'our' own comfort zones, bareback pads being the worst example!If the nose band is made too comfortable it's easy for the horse to lean into it, or push through you. There seems to be no weight to the halter,ie the fiador knot and the rope looks thinner? I wonder if the clip on reins would give the right 'feel' to the horse? Or encourage a rider to pull back on both? I've seen bittless bridles on the market which are very simular to these ,just made of leather.If you loose the 'feel' it means you might pull to the right to go right and pull to the left to go left, so if you were to pull on both the horse might get confused and think GO surely?? Another concern is that if the 'feel' is lost the horse can't feel the release which is what it's all about.
The fact that those trigger clips swivel would also means less feel.
All that said, these are my concerns from just seeing the design
I agree with Kazhak re the seven games. Also it's important to be able to ride with one rein before progressing to two.
I look forward to your thoughts
Hope Dulcie is ok today
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Edited by - Deboniks on 28 Oct 2008 9:15:02 PM |
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 4:51:40 PM
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Ok, here are my inexperienced thoughts. And they just apply to me and Jack and this particular halter - can't comment on anyone else 
I thought about the noseband being easier to lean on - so far, he hasn't done it. He has been taught to yield to pressure and is very good most of the time. He was brought up using a variety of methods that his breeder made her own, and it included parelli style things. I haven't followed that on strictly, but not far off, at least in terms of moving him around, groundwork, yielding to pressure etc. I agree 100% that horses need educating with rope halters - fortunately for me, that was done by the time I got Jack.
There is less weight to this halter, but I don't think the rope is any thinner - it is softer though. I too thought about the less weight/not as clear a release from a fiador knot (given there isn't one!) However, like the noseband, it doesn't seem to have been a problem yet.
I have to say that Jack hasn't been officially taught a one rein stop, as such. It is something I've been meaning to learn However, his brakes are excellent, and he rarely leans on either the parelli halter I have, or this one.
I would rather school in a more normal type bridle, not a rope halter, but Jack didn't like the one we had, and so I tried our parelli one, first with a 12 foot line, then with the scissor snap reins, then graduated to this. I prefer these reins as they're thinner, so easier for me to hold.
I don't really ride in this rope halter like I would in the parelli halter, more like a 'normal' bridle. I don't use the halter much at all - Jack is going mostly off my seat and legs. He is very soft when it comes to the halter, and he seems happy with it. We might not be technically correct, but we seem to understand each other
BUT, I now have the old parelli partnership pack Watch this space
As I said, this is the inexperienced me talking. I would love to learn more, so perhaps those people with more experience could comment too?
I'll start with admitting my ignorance on something (just the one thing for now!) Can someone please explain to me exactly what the difference is between riding with one rein (which you then make into a loop and it goes back to where it started), and riding with two?
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Kelly
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 5:21:53 PM
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Watch your video's Kelly!
Riding with 1 rein means exactly that - 1 rein from fiador knot to your hand. You throw it over the neck to the other side when necessary.
Having only 1 rein is by far the quickest way to teach riders not to pull back when they get worried. It can take a bit of a 'leap of faith' to first give it a go, but the results are fantastic.
NB I have seen very old photo's of Arabs ridden in their native countries with a very basic halter & a single rein &/or stick.
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"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 6:27:33 PM
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Hi Kelly
OK, I see where your problems might be coming from
I've just re read your previous posts and I think I'm getting a clearer picture.
I've copied what you wrote on page 1
"I've never ridden Jack in a bit, he's 6 1/2. We've had a Dr Cook, which he went fine in until I started schooling him. He objected and I thought it was because there is quite a lot of poll pressure, and he developed a sensitive spot behind his left ear. So we swapped to a rope halter (natural hackamore) with a fiador knot. That was fine for normal riding, but come schooling time, I couldn't get a proper contact, as when his head was in the right place, the knot was touching his neck! I've just bought a rope halter with two rings to attach reins to just under the chin - so far, great.
However, his sensitive spot showed up again last week - leading me to think that it was never the Dr Cook so much as him tensing up and twingeing."
I'm confused by what you call 'normal riding'. I presumed you had already gone through Level 1 Parelli or simular. If you are riding how you used to, but in a rope halter that would explain all the problems you've had.You said you couldn't get contact,with what? If you were putting pressure on his nose by even lightly pulling/holding you are sending all the wrong messages and even (sorry) causing painThe fact that the fiador knot was touching his neck would show this. It would cause him to tense up (brace) and cause the twingeing.It is a reaction to what 'feel' you have offered him.
I don't understand how you have taught him to stop? It's ok doing it by your seat but in a situation where you might need to use an emergency stop, you might find your self in trouble? You need to know the one rein stop, which is like Ella say's, just one rein!
Now you have the Level 1 to guide you. I'm sure you will find it really helpful and it will answer some of your questions
I hope you find this helpful, I'm not meaning to sound mean
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Sharon
Bronze Member
England
179 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 10:18:25 PM
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Hi there
I am about to go bitless with my 10yo pba, and my 4 yo egyptian arab who is new to me, I have 2 hackamores, but I like the look of the bosal, esp in crystal fires piccies, I often ride Tahj, my 10 yo pba in his headcollar around the field and we has less 'fights' than when bitted, I would love some advice plese xxxx
Sharon |
Life is like an endurance ride.....can anyone here read a map? 'cos I'm lost!!!! |
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 10:25:31 AM
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No offence taken at all Debbie, I know you don't intend to be mean It is helpful
Just to be clear - the problem with the twinging started in the Dr Cook. It is far better (only done it once) in either of the rope halters, so that isn't the cause. As such, I assumed it was the Dr Cook. However, after he did it last time, I've realised it's in response to him tensing, regardless of bridle. He's just obviously more relaxed in the rope halters, so tenses less. He's very soft in them.
I think I've been somewhat naive in thinking I could occasionally ride in the rope halter to school, in a similar way to a 'normal' bridle. In fact, they are purported to support direct reining and a 'more direct signal'. Someone else schools in the Lodge Ropes Enduro bridle - how do you find it? I would imagine that is a similar concept, but could be wrong.
Somewhere along the line I've been given/got the wrong impression about 'riding with one rein' - I seem to remember asking for clarification somewhere in the dim and distant past, and have obviously misunderstood the explanation
I really have to get round to watching those videos!
Thank you for your comments, Kelly (off to start her journey from the beginning...... ) |
Kelly
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 1:01:20 PM
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"I think I've been somewhat naive in thinking I could occasionally ride in the rope halter to school, in a similar way to a 'normal' bridle."
You CAN ride in your halter for schooling, in exactly the same way as you should use a bridle - with the outline coming from engagement/impulsion/lifted back NOT from a "contact". A proper outline can be achieved with just a string around the base of the neck.
http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php?id=34&gid=1&min=27
In the halter, if his head is where you want it, the fiador knot should be hanging loose. Otherwise you're asking for more, more ,more & a trained horse would have his nose on his chest & be running backwards trying to find the release.
This is all about teaching the horse that every rein signal means something, not teaching him to ignore a constant hold on 2 reins, which is what riding in a "contact" often is. |
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
Edited by - ella on 29 Oct 2008 6:34:45 PM |
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2008 : 04:34:16 AM
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Oh Thankyou Ella that picture just showed how it really should be.
when I was 14 I used to ride my welsh mare a little like that, just without the rope around her neck,
but that just proved my point from earlier too that collection can be gained without using a piece of steel between a horses teeth, its all about pressure & release & give & take, My Dad trains all of the horses he does to give to pressure, give to pressure at poll, give to pressure at chest, & I have seen him ride a horse in Flying changes on a loose rein in a head collar
so thankyou ella that was a beautiful pic, it well illustrates the point of true riding |
Last Picture Taken by Matt Bennet |
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