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Claire
Silver Member
England
422 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 4:08:51 PM
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| Thanks for that Crystal Fire please if you could PM me with the details to I'd be really grateful |
      
Suffolk |
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ACGODFREY
Silver Member
United Kingdom
440 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 4:48:01 PM
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My boy went bitless earlier this year at the age of 12 as he always fusses with the bit and has never seemed happy with one (and we have tried alot!). We use the Dr Cooks bridle and although the first session in the school was odd for us both, he goes very well in it. I always hack in the bitless but still sometimes school with a bit as I'd like to start doing some dressage with him. He holds himself very well in the bitless and is far more relaxed, but has recently started to lean into it - I don''t do the noseband up very tight so this probably doesn't help and according to the chiro he had some problems in his poll which may have been responsible. He is a very respectful and gentle horse on the ground and responds very well to vocal commands and the seat which I think makes such a difference.
I would encourage the use of bitless bridles - but only in the right hands. Someone on my yard broke a hackamore recently mid hack - apparently because the horse was pulling. Knowing this person it was not the horse, me thinks  They are now enquiring about the Dr Cooks, which alarms me as I believe if force was used, my boy would certainly panic and rear up in fright. |
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Nicki
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 5:13:50 PM
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Hi all, great topic. I had horrendous problems with the first horse I ever had - my beautiful arab mare. I was told she was broken in and I think quite literally she was. All we did was bolt - it was awful. I then did some Silversand work too, and since then I rode her in the rope halter (Silversand, Natural Horsemanship, Parelli - all similar and easy to make from boating rope). To start with I rode her back back and only used really light pressure on the rope round her neck. We finally built up to a bridle because I wanted to show her, but for a long time she just wore the bridle but I actually rode off the halter. In the end the bridle was almost surplus to requirements because she went so wonderfully for me. I was sooo lucky. A lady called Lisa from Silversand came and stayed for 3 days and worked with us, I thought it was great, it really helped and educated me.
I lost this mare very sadly, and the rest of the herd are really different. One of the youngsters (colt) I started in a Dually halter because he was so boingy & just wanted to bound off anywhere that took his fancy - now we are progressing to the rope halter - that's our aim. Same with my grumpy gelding - when I got him he took no notice of bridles, rope halters or anything and just towed me about until I tried a Dually. He doesnt even try to pull. Again I am weaning him off it and onto the rope halter in the belief that really subtle light work really comes from the lightest of touch. I am about to try and get into Parelli - since seeing a fab display on Horse & Country tv. I have 3 months off riding due to a back op so am going to give all the ground work a go that way and see how it compares to Silversand & Monty style, plus I did some work with an abororiginal in Australia who was the first person I ever saw ride bitless/saddle-less. I'm trying to pick the bits that work for me from all the trainers. Sorry to ramble on - but I'm really passionate about. |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 5:51:13 PM
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I took my horses bitless due to commiting to following the Parelli program after seeing the results of advanced students.
When I looked closer at western training methods, it made absolute sense to me to educate both riders & horses using a bosal or similar mild bitless bridle before progressing to a bitted bridle.
When I changed, all 3 horses instantly went better with less resistance. This year I had 2 horses in a bitted bridle more, now that I have learnt to "give" better & they had learned to be softer. I horse is still in the hackamore as his schooling is not as advanced.
My insurance states that I am covered for western riding, which of course includes the use of western tack! Hackamores are classed as bridles, it's the term "halter" that raises safety fears for some.
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"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
Edited by - ella on 22 Oct 2008 6:49:40 PM |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 6:02:53 PM
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I used to be a Parelli student, I was heavily involved and in ground-work was working in Level 3, ridden was somewhere in Level 2. These days I prefer the Silversand approach because it just gets me to the softness I want much more quickly, and without 3 phases. Different styles will suit different people.
I have a real "thing" about rope halter fit. You might be surprised at how many quite expensive ones aren't that great, and some of the EBay offerings are terrible.
I think Rob from Lodge Ropes explains it very well here
http://www.freewebs.com/lodgeropes/haltertechnicalarticle.htm
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 6:43:07 PM
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| Originally posted by lulu
Old mae was alwys ridden in German hackamore. Went beautifully. You do need an independent seat and ride on a fairly easy contact. The German is quite severe in the wrong hands.
Not all bitless devices are kind!!!
I personally would not use a German hackamore on a Arab - they may be OK for warmbloods that are comparatively insensitive, but as they are nothing more than thin steel wire with a bit of sheepskin round it (horrified when I found out!) and have long shanks, hence have severe leverage, they can be vicious even in GOOD hands!
I was given one to try on my old girl, who like many Arabs can't fit her tongue and a bit in her mouth at the same time. I don't exactly have heavy hards, but when I (gently) stopped her with it, she pulled up dead like someone had hit her in the face with a baseball bat, then shook her head and was obviously quite distressed. I IMMEDIATELY took her home (all of 10 yards), took the damn thing off, and threw it away.
Rode her thereafter in an English hackamore (which uses heavy leather straps instead of wire and has short shanks) which IS kind, and never had any problems.
It is far too simplistic to assume that 'bits are bad, bitless is good'. You are still using pressure to control the horse in a bitless bridle - you are just applying it to a different (and not necessarily less sensitive) part of the body.
Every horse -like every person - is an individual, and for the safety of BOTH of you (e.g. my mare was fine in an English hackmore, but would take the p*ss and run off in other bitless bridles) you need to find the right *individual* solution.
Keren |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 7:06:06 PM
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Hi
I would like to add ANY rope halter can be just as bad in the wrong hands! The problem is NEVER the horse in whatever you use,it's the rider/handler
and...
I found some very good halters at Rawhide in the UK that were very good ,and cheap! and better than the parelli ones (IMO) |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 7:23:07 PM
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Thank you CF. I was like you, a Parelli student L3 groundwork and L2 ridden. When my levels horse died suddenly I'm afraid the desire to achieve levels were buried with her. Although I have to admit I was already beginning to ask big questions about it before then. I am no longer following any programme and instead just working with my horse in a way I believe in, my training, what is instinctive and what knowledge and experience I brought before I started my NH journey. Po seems happy on it, but getting her daughter soon who is only 4 and unbacked, I'd quite like to have a refresher!  I just want to make sure I give her the best start in her ground and ridden work 
ETA I meant to say Ella I love that picture of you and your horse jumping.  |
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Edited by - Fee on 22 Oct 2008 7:26:48 PM |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 7:43:25 PM
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Hi Fee I agree that's the best way to be. I have gone full circle and back to Parelli as their new dvd's cover so much more and I've found them valuable
Hi Ella Great photos, did I meet you at the EE Center when Ray Hunt was there?
For those who want to use a bit, have you looked at the Parelli Cradle Bridle? On the PNH website?
(edited to add) I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it |
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Edited by - Deboniks on 22 Oct 2008 9:18:20 PM |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 8:14:18 PM
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I confused myself a bit too much when I moved away from Parelli, sort of information overload LOL! So now I train with Steve Halfpenny, Tom Widdicombe and my classical instructor, as I find those 3 to be complementary and logical. I go see lots of others and pick up tips from them to add to the mix.
I'm not really that keen on the cradle bridle, over-complicated to me. Sometimes it feels as if Parelli has strayed a long way from their original simple principles. If you have soft feel and lightness then I don't think you need ported bits and poll pressure. But again, everyone to their own. Just a simple bit, a bridle pared down to the essentials, a nice set of soft rope reins and I'm away. |
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Arabmare
Gold Member
United Kingdom
628 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 8:46:24 PM
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I ride both my girls bitless. Jasmine I broke in bitless and bareback wgen she was 10 years old after being a broodmare.
I also ride in a bridle too.
I broke my first Arab bitless and treeless.
I have used a libbys scrawbrig with my old Arab and Jasmine and Shantih I use a Bosal.
Here are some pics:
Shantih;
Jasmine;
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Nicki
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 9:32:17 PM
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Fee - I'm really sorry you lost your horse and your will to do the Parelli. I do understand - when I lost my mare I didnt want to do any training any more but the horses make you because they need you to understand them. I think realising how little I knew about how to handle my gelding made me realise how much each horse has to teach you, and I suddenly wanted to get him as good as my mare. But to start with I just hated that he was so awful, and what I'd lost was so wonderful. Anyway I still have that dream of riding him bare back and bridle less on Holkham Beach = which is really quite hilarious to anyone who knows him and have seen us riding him "traditionally" - it can be a little interesting!! At least it's something to aim for. I really agree, that taking lots of ideas and methods from everyone is fascinating and seeing what each different horses teaches is the big learn. Getting your mares daughter sounds like wonderful fun - enjoy!
Love the pics from Ella esp jumping, and from Arabmare - they look lovely! My chestnut mare is 23 & retired because she broke a leg nearly 2 years ago - very jealous! |
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Fee
Platinum Member
2601 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 9:39:58 PM
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I doubt I'll do a full circle, was tempted with this new girl coming but I want to find something else, I don't want to go back there. Although I believe the Parelli's themselves are, or at least they started out for the horse, now, imo they are surrounded by greedy, power hungry people with their eyes firmly fixed on $ and not horses. I liked it when it was the old packs, it was simple and effective. Now there is too much. I'd hate to be starting it, apart from needing to have a small fortune behind you to buy what they say you need  The other thing that turned me off it and still turns my head away are the zealots. Parelli seems to breed it, perhaps one reason is because all Parelli students are not 'allowed' to pursue other NH formats/teaching, that's wrong imo, if it works for you and your horse that flies in the face of what they say the are about.
Anyway, enough before I start a war! 
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 10:27:32 PM
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Hi Fee
Well you won't start a war with me I'm not very good at expressing what I really mean
When I say full circle, I'm not a die hard Parelli person although that's how I come across at times
I've watched lots of different NH people, some copy cats and some unique. I started with the old packs to I just think the new ones (Horse Behaviour set especially)fill in certain gaps and there were some really HUGE ones in the old packs
I still watch who I can when I can and there will never be enough days left in my life to fulfil my dreams. All I do is in the best interest of my horses, I try to trust my instincts and look at things for the horse’s point of view. The good thing about the copycats is that some have a different way of explaining the same thing or can even add information by their own experience. Pat himself says 'It's so old it's new'(OMG there I go again, maybe I do have a problem) Yes it is expensive and it needn't be if you know where to look. I must admit though I always buy the dvd's I've never heard Parelli students are not 'allowed' to pursue other NH formats/teaching, that's new to me.
I've had fun over the years playing with Flame and now starting the colt it's been great fun, I hope (know) you will have great fun when Po's daughter arrives and will look forward to hearing all about your experiencesAt the end of the day 'Happy horses,Happy me'
edited for spelling!
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Edited by - Deboniks on 22 Oct 2008 10:33:18 PM |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 10:44:35 PM
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Love your girls Arabmare! That's a Lodge Ropes bosal isn't it? They are nice and mild, some of the more conventional bosals like you would get in western shops can be very rigid and quite severe.
I don't know what is taught in Parelli lately, but when I worked for them I sat next to Pat for lunch one day. I couldn't think of what to talk about, and when I'd exhausted the weather (!) I told him I'd got tickets to go see Mark Rashid. Pat told me that I "hadn't got enough savvy to evaluate another system until you've passed level 3". I'd got the tickets, so I went, and it was a real eye-opener. Those were the days when you brought your foldy chair to the end of an arena, and sat watching Mark teach with about 20 other spectators. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2008 : 11:02:49 PM
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That's not good at all .I wonder if he still thinks that way?
I have a great book about NH, I decided wouldn't it be great to get each trainer to sign their page as I saw them, something to look back on when I'm old (older) As Pat flicked through it he was pleased to see Ray Hunts signature, but then again Ray's in a league of his own |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 12:40:34 PM
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Hi Deboniks, yes I met you briefly at the Ray Hunt seminar
Unfortunately that weekend was far too soggy for much socialising!
You will have heard the "don't make a multi-flavoured pizza" advice from PP, but there's also advice not to close your eyes to other methods. Level 4 has a reading list of other horsemanship books. The Parelli material has certainly evolved over recent years to include more of other ideas, particularly those of some classical dressage trainers.
I don't have a cradle bridle, but I do ride in Myler bits or a lozenge bit - the same ones I was using pre-Parelli! We get on fine with thses without the "combination" extras. I never used the single joint snaffle or those horrible, slap-horse-in-the-face slobber straps as feedback from the Arabs was clearly negative. They were not happy with a contact in the snaffle or with being wacked by the rein leathers when on a loose rein.
Thanks for the nice comments on the pics 
Here is Taz on his 1st ride in company, 2002
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"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 12:44:18 PM
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| Oh, forgot to say, I've got an old set of Silversand videos (VHS) that anyone who wants can have - pm me |
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Nicki
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 1:05:36 PM
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| Well that caused lots of debate on the Parelli side of things ! I assumed (having just read Hero to Zero) that all PP students and the man himeself would be huge advocats of using lots of methods and taking anything that worked from anywhere you got it from. Surely the aim is Happy Horses and to inspire people to work humanely. Did the people who studied Parelli with Pat do so out in the States? and if so did you go to Colorado or to Florida? I spend lots of time in Florida for work, but horses are all in the UK, and I had wondered if I could do any courses over there but obviously I'd be horse - less. But I can't ride for 3 months anyway - so just trying to find anything I can do to get through the non riding time. |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 5:22:28 PM
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I think the opinion is still the same - study other methods once you've passed level 3, and the reasons are about not getting confused and having the knowledge "savvy" to understand what you are seeing first. I don't agree with that.
I've got two bits in my collection, the Rockin S french link snaffle, and a Happy Mouth straight bar snaffle. They seem to work for me and mine.
I used to work for Parelli UK, I was a working student for 6 months. We were supposed to have a lesson with our instructor once a week, but I must admit that didn't happen. I learnt heaps while there though, mostly from watching the original levels stuff and going through it with my fellow students.
I have watched Pat teach, and work with horses, but personally I wouldn't want to actually be taught by him. |
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lulu
Gold Member
763 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 7:31:46 PM
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| Going back to my old mare in a hackamore she wasn't a pure bred three-quater bred, she had been ridden western too, don't think I would want to ride Thea in a hackamore |
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Claire
Silver Member
England
422 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 8:27:05 PM
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| I rode Mirshid today for the first time in an english hackamore and he seemed to really like it! His head carriage was lower and he was very relaxed (although he is a laid back boy anyway!) I just had a very light contact as I do with my bit and didn't have any problems. The only thing I did notice is that when I asked him to canter he wasn't sure what to do with his head, but when trotting he was very long and low which was brilliant. will have another go tomorrow! |
Suffolk |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 8:56:12 PM
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Could someone let me know how you get on with lateral flexion in a mechanical hackamore? Some time back I went to see a lovely lady in Tuscany (sigh, tough life!) to help with her bolting horse. We did really well, and the horse got nice and soft in the halter, and was responsive to a 1 rein stop. However the lady wasn't comfortable riding out in ropes, not that I blame her, and wanted to continue riding in her English Hackamore. Problem was, I couldn't get the horse to flex softly sideways when she was in the hackamore.
In the end we re-introduced a simple bit of some description, I can't remember which, and then the mare gave lateral flexion again.
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 9:26:24 PM
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Hi Ella Yes that was a soggy week end! I remember being huddled up in my sleeping bag while the tent flapped about in a gale! It didn't make matters better when OH phoned me form a BBQ in Bognor where the weather was great! But I really did enjoy the whole event
I use slobber straps have done for years and have never had a problem with them? They have never hit Flame in the head But that is what is so interesting about this thread,we use slightly different things and use and fit them how we all consider the bestDifferent ropes and leathers have different weights which also make a difference.The horses let us know if things could be better in their own way don't theyThe fact we are all trying to improve speak volumes(When you're green you're growing,when you're ripe you're rotten!.....who said that ???? duck LOL)It's interesting to see what others are using and whyDoing things your own way is ok, but if things go wrong you have to know where to find the answers and if you can't afford to do courses all the time the HBC is an excellent reference. No one else has yet produced anything to equal it,but it's only a matter of time
Have you looked on the Walter Zettl site? His dvd is next on my list!
Arabmare~ Fab pictures as always!!
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Nicki
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2008 : 9:37:09 PM
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Thanks Crystal Fire - I know where to ask if i get any problems. I've just ordered the Success Series to watch while I'm laid up - can't wait to see what it's about and to compare to what I've seen/do myself. For the unitiated, Deboniks I have to ask - what in heck are slobber straps ??? and what is HBC? sorry to sound so uneducated! but if I don't ask, I won't know ...
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