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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 11:28:39 PM
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My mare is 22, and I want to breed a foal from her, but I don't want her to go through the stress of foaling. I am investigating Embryo Transfer, and I am wondering if the AHS will let me regiser it as the offspring of my mare, and if the recipient mare would also be named on the regisration certificate?
Thanks
Emma xx
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 2:06:04 PM
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eeek have you checked out the cost yet?
very expensive..
ash
ps l seem to remembeer reading somewhere that the ahs will now except foal registrations from embryo transfer foals, but think the foal has to be dna'd before registration is compleated...doubt if the recipicant mare would be named....but am not sure |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 10:23:12 PM
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I have done...luckily my vet is an equine vet, and will do me a package cost....all I have to do is source the stallion and recipient mare!
He'll charge about £1000 all in...which is comparable to a trip to stud, covering, livery etc....and the bonus that my girl stays nice and calm at home!
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 11:42:23 PM
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and pay the stud fee...get the mare..
l have also read that it is better to use a slightly bigger mare than the donar so that there is plenty of room for the foal
has your mare been bred before and is she still ovulating?
remember she will have to be covered to produce the embryo...as l expect you know there are two kinds available....the less invasive is done at 5 days..when the doner mare is flushed and the embryo transplanted into the host mare....also many vets will not want to do AI on a mare her age so you could be doing a natural covering...so your mare still needs to go to stud...
and do dna her first...if anything happens to her before the host mare gives birth you will not be able to register your foal!
ash |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 2:42:01 PM
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I know!
I have the option on 3 mares, Crystal is still ovulating, and my vet is happy to do AI on her.
I have 3 stallions in mind, just have to choose between them. Perdition VF, a son of Probat who is owned by my friend in Canada. Eaglescliffe for the Crabbet lines, and I would dearly love to breed a Tobagoling!
Crystal has her AHS Premium, so that is not a problem. I just have to choose a stallion!!!! I will get her DNA'd.
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 3:50:52 PM
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do tell me your mares breeding so l can look...l do love looking at pedigrees...
and what are you hoping for??
ash |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 7:23:22 PM
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Emma
don't mean to be a damp squib but you will need 2 recipient mares, not one. If you look at Twemlows web site they cost out all the bits you need and £1,000 is the bare minimum. Two recipient mares are recommended because of the high risk of non implantation in one. If you use one mare and it fails, it means you have to keep covering (Ai-ing) Crystal, get her in foal, wash her out and then try and get the recipient to "take".
I'm not sure which vets you use here in Lancashire but there are very few in our area specialising in ET work (I know because we've looked into it extensively for Taz). Lots of the vets want to try it but very few (none?) in Lancashire have the experience. We've had a long chat with our vet (who is an equine fertility specialist) and even they recommend sending the mare and recipients down to a specialised area like Twemlows or Hobgoblin. If you can't get a second recipient mare, you can lease one from the fertility centre. And there is no way they can do embryo transfer at your home premises - you will have to take her somewhere where there is a controlled environment and laboratory. Apparently the biggest skill is in spotting the embryo when it has been washed out of the mare and that needs specialist temperature controlled facilities and specialist microscopes.
The AHS does register foals born by ET. If you contact them, they will send you all the paperwork you need.
Just a query - how did you get yout Premium status without a crop of foals on the ground? Whenever I've asked about Premium, I've been told that the mare had to have foals (also with a performance record) on the ground.
I know you desperately want Crystal to have a foal but why not try natural birth? If she's still cycling properly and you're going to retire her anyway, why not let her breed naturally. I know you're worried about her age but she's fit and healthy so with gentle care and proper in-foal management, she should be fine.
We've spent most of this year trying to decide what to do about embryo transfer and every time I make a decision, I change my mind. It seems nice and clear cut and low stress but having spent a lot of time talking to vets, fertility specialists and people who've been through it (both successfully and unsuccessfully), I've realised that it isn't cheap (average cost is £3,000) and it's highly stressful for you and all the horses involved.
Seriously, I'd give Tullis a ring at Twemlows and talk it through with him before making any firm decisions.
Good luck (I know which stallion I'd chose - but then again, I'm biased) |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 10:16:08 PM
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I'm only retiring her from Open competition...we are going to be doing affiliated Dressage, plus Veteran showing, and may even try Le Trec! Vet is Aldingtons Equine Vets, and he's a specialist Equine vet. She got her Premium through her performance record (one day events, SJ, XC, dressage and showing) Like I said, I have the option on 3 mares...and if necessary I can use all 3!!!
Ashabarab Crystals pedigree can be seen at http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/crystal+atlantis
Rachelle..I know you would choose Eaglescliffe, he is a lovely boy, and probably the leading contender....plus he would possibly give me that extra couple of inches in height.
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 10:33:41 PM
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thx what a nice old english/polish pedigree..
l would look at the stallions l wanted to use and see what they have produced with mares of similar breeding
l agree that Eaglescliffe has produced some very nice performance stock with good size..the advantage there being you can get fresh semen.. but you have lots of time keep looking around...who knows what you might come accross
ash
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 11:38:46 PM
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Ash, she is very typical of the Old English lines...solid and stiocky...I often get asked if I am sure she is Pure bred! She is usually confused with a PB welshie, she is that stocky!!! Planning on attempting the ET next March, so I get a foal the following Feb...then, fingers crossed, I have a true yearling the following year.
Emma xx
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 11:52:38 PM
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good luck then...but be warned l know a few people who have attempted this....they spent a fortune with no results...you need a vet with a 'feel' for this kind of stuff and a bit of luck
some vets are better than others for getting it right...
ash |
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emma
Gold Member
816 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 11:53:18 AM
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I remember reading a paper while at uni about offspring of recipient mares and how they pick up their characterisitics. Im sure there was something similar in one of our arab magazines too. Anyway i know the dam of one of my youngsters was the result of ET and that her owner said of all her horses she behaves the least like an arab and she thought it was probably because her actual dam was not an arab- just food for thought etc thought you may find it interesting.
I to would have thought the cost would be much greater than what you have said, so perhaps you have got yourself a good deal there.
With regards to stallion, would it be an idea to ask Egbert on the tail female thread?
Also another point to consider is do you want fresh or frozen, your vet will probably advise you there? obviously success rates and costs may vary.
From personal experience my older maiden mare was covered naturally, had the foal and continued to compete. If you work it and your horse is happy to continue work you can work it just so she is out of action for part of the season depending on your chosen discipline.
Good luck and let us know which stallion you decide. |
Emma
Fulmer House Arabians
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 4:41:33 PM
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Crystal is not very araby....despite being pure bred! She does have 'prat attacks' but I put that down to her being incredibly daft!
I would love to be able to continue to compete her and have the foal herself....but I would be soo jumpy about it!
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 5:42:49 PM
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has she had a foal before?
at her age l am sure she is getting to the time when she might like to slow down a bit....why do you not let her have a foal and enjoy the experence together?
embryo transfer is a very very expensive buisness...your vet might have quoted you a price but there are other costs..like getting your mare pregnant in the first place...A.I is a lot of money too...l doubt you can manage this under 5 thou....if you manage this at all..l have one friend this year who has attempted to A I her mares...she has spent thousands and they are NOT pregnant..l have covered two mares [natural service] and it has cost me about 5 thou...so far
don't mean to sound so negative, l think it's great you love your mare so much that you want her offspring...it is just a very very costly buisness
ash |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 11:01:23 PM
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Yes ash, she has bred a couple of foals before. Both to a TB stallion called Celtic Moore, only one survived, a filly called Ihwan. That was before I bought her....plus, to cut down costs, Rachelle will travel her stallion to Crystal for covering...makes things easier, plus he's got the lines I am after!
I will go through with this, either with Crystal having the foal herself, or via ET.
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 11:43:25 AM
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l do so hope you get the foal you want...l would try natural cover first...as she has had a foal before and she is healthy why not?
also if you cover her at the right time you will have plenty of riding before she becomes due...a lot of mares are ridden untill late in there pregnacy [some are ridden up untill the day before when the owners did not know their horse was pregnant]..then if she does not hold you can consider other options
and then you two can enjoy the whole expierence together...and don't panic..she has done it all before....so she can hold your hand, rather than you hold hers [hoof]
ash |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 1:25:19 PM
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Thanks Ash! I think if she is covered in March, I will get a February foal...plus get a full season with her in Veteran classes, and broodmare! Plus, the year after, she can still do Ridden Veteran and I'll have foaly for foaly classes....hmmm!!!!!!!!
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 2:27:15 PM
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that sounds good to me...the hardest part is the waiting...now if ONLY l could have a sneak preview!!!!!
ash
ps have you decieded on which stallion you are using yet? |
Edited by - ashabarab on 27 Aug 2008 2:31:42 PM |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 5:08:35 PM
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possibly Rachelles boy....he's a son of Imad, and 99% Crabbet, which is the line I want...as Crystal is over 70% Crabbet, it'll be a good line for her.
Emma xx |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 5:29:13 PM
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l notice she has several...including a 100% crabbet with amazing breeding...very rare these days
do send me there names then l can look them up
ash
pm if you want |
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emma
Gold Member
816 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 4:04:12 PM
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I think that sounds a good idea about covering her naturally and continuing with the riding, personally thats what i would do.
I was considering this year covering my mare March ish time then continuing with this season showing, then she is off for her last trimester (last time this is when i had to stop riding her as she was just too large) and then if i wanted once the foal was weaned i could make the last part of 2009 season.) However i never got round to it so perhaps next year! |
Emma
Fulmer House Arabians
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 10:21:04 PM
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I'll have my novice girly as well next summer....plus friends PB to show in hand......so I'm going to be horrendously busy, and Crink would only be doing Veteran and dressage....so not too much for her anyway!
Emma xx |
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