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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 1:23:23 PM
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Hi Polly
There is a non active register with the kennel club, dogs whose papers are endorsed with 'R' means progeny not eligible for registration, though as i previously mentioned it needs to be reiterated on the sale contract otherwise it is null and void, we have sent all our sale contracts to the kc as this is the only way that the endorsement cannot be overturned and makes sure that the new owner is fully aware of what they are buying eg. pet dog not stud animal..
Hope this gives a bit of clarity. |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 5:28:24 PM
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Loosefur, sorry just seen your reply to my post. I 100% wholeheartedly stand buy what i said and i will never back down on that. BUT, i dont want to start an argument within this thread on the suject and i definately dont want it to get personal.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one!
Michelle |
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 5:26:56 PM
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From a genetic diversity stand point line breeding and in breeding are as bad as one another. Using either of these techniques results in a reduction in variability and an increased likely hood of a single or multiple point mutation being perpetrated.
I think the thing that is saving some domesticated show animals at the present is the fact that generation times are at least 3-4 years where as dogs can be less then a year. So 150 years approximately = 150 generations in dogs. In horses 150 years approximates to 30-40 generations. Thanks fully a lot of horses are not bred for showing only and sporting performance is taken in to account.
Take the royal Family in Victorian times, and hemophilia. |
Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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bridie
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2395 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 5:50:32 PM
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Have a look at www.manytears.co.uk click on Dogs Needing Homes page.
There is a wide selection of casulties from the puppy farming industry on there, heartbreaking. |
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themewoman
Silver Member
England
375 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 12:01:34 PM
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someone has just offered me a rotweiller puppy for 200 quid. i asked why so cheap and he said because they are not papered. so i said whats the point of breeding them then and also it must make it harder to sell them. His reply was that it was a tax dodge!!!
what do you think of that? |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 1:03:23 PM
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| Originally posted by Dot
From a genetic diversity stand point line breeding and in breeding are as bad as one another. Using either of these techniques results in a reduction in variability and an increased likely hood of a single or multiple point mutation being perpetrated.
I think the thing that is saving some domesticated show animals at the present is the fact that generation times are at least 3-4 years where as dogs can be less then a year. So 150 years approximately = 150 generations in dogs. In horses 150 years approximates to 30-40 generations. Thanks fully a lot of horses are not bred for showing only and sporting performance is taken in to account.
Take the royal Family in Victorian times, and hemophilia.
Originally posted by Dot
From a genetic diversity stand point line breeding and in breeding are as bad as one another. Using either of these techniques results in a reduction in variability and an increased likely hood of a single or multiple point mutation being perpetrated.
I think the thing that is saving some domesticated show animals at the present is the fact that generation times are at least 3-4 years where as dogs can be less then a year. So 150 years approximately = 150 generations in dogs. In horses 150 years approximates to 30-40 generations. Thanks fully a lot of horses are not bred for showing only and sporting performance is taken in to account.
Take the royal Family in Victorian times, and hemophilia.
You can't compare inbreeding in domestic animals with humans, simply because humans will never permit anyone to be taken out of the 'breeding group', no matter what genetic defects they may be likely to perpetuate. Also, genetics is a comparatively modern science: at the point at which the royal families of Europe were constantly marrying their cousins, there was no understanding of the subject and how problems were inherited, so of course nothing could be done to prevent it. This absolutely does NOT apply to animals - if an individual throws up a defect, a responsible breeder will not allow it to reproduce.
(Incidentally, haemophilia does not require 'inbreeding' to surface - in Victoria's case, it was distributed through the effect of a' dominant progenitor', and that is something that can happen in any population!)
In/linebreeding DOES reduce genetic diversity, that is the whole point of it! But the intention is to reproduce the GOOD qualities. The Arab horse is in a unique position, in that it is the only horse breed in the world that will not allow any acknowledged outside blood to be used as an outcross, which is why it is important not to reduce the genepool further by culling everything that may test positive for SCID, as some would suggest.
Dogs are the 'canaries' of animal breeding, in that they show what happens when breeders select only for form and not for function. Sadly, this trend had been evident in the Arabian horse as well for the last 30 years: headhunters who know little beyond a pretty face and care less...they are only bother about 'pasture ornaments', as they call them in the US. Other breeds are going the same way - the Quarter horse, for example: just look at some of the examples Fuglyhorse posts on her blog to see how selection for form over function is producing horses that are crippled, to say nothing of the infamous HYPP.
Right now, we are getting perilously close to the edge - how long before Panorama features genetic defects in show horses, and what will the knock-on effect be? I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'animal rights' terrorists don't target Crufts next year...
Keren
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krab
New Member
England
29 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 5:12:31 PM
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| rosie afraid the arab breed is already tainted with the problems associated with inbreeding , not going to make me popular but it is there and as in the dog world is for financial and cosmetic desires only. if you inbreed for specific charicteristics inevitably you will sacrifice other things, i.e conformation , temperament etc. the bug eyes and extreme dished noses of some arabians reflects this and where do most of those turn up , the show rings . limiting gene pools just to produce a characutuer of the breed who resembles a seahorse in image can only be detrimental. the result ultra flat topline resulting in back problems , poor feet, etc etc the list goes on. unfortunately some so called top studs promote these practices just as in thr dog world the question is who benefits the human or the animal, an easy one i think !!! are you being conned ? |
www.equstar.co.uk |
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morag
Bronze Member
England
94 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 10:02:41 PM
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WOW!! One hot potatoe here!!. Didn't see the dog programme but some of the comments on here regarding breeding Arabians ring so true.
Fashion and Money and no knowledge are truly dangerous to our breed. We have genetic diseases in our horses - SCID, CA and others - mostly hushed up and not spoken about - a few others have posted on here mentioning them- so responsible people are in the know. Generations of line breeding by knowledgeable people have produced the arabian horse I fell in love with. Sadly over the last 30 years I have seen the result of money, fashion and lack of deep understanding turn it into todays fizzy, flighty, seahorse headed, toilet -tubed bodied, cow hocked, flat backed, no withers and boxy footed specimens that "grace" our show rings - accompanied by their tin rattling, hooting and hollering fashion loving connections. This can only get worse now we have a world wide gene pool available via frozen semen !! Breeding fashions and genetic diseases are bound to ruin the arabian breed without the knowledge of genetics and pedigrees to go with it. The breed has never been so vulnerable to accelerated change - the true working characteristics of the breed are under threat already !! People in glass houses should not throw stones!! |
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 09:22:10 AM
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The following is line breeding, I was attempting to use it as an example in the human world of the detrimental effect of such practices not to say this is the only way heamophilia can occur
'(Incidentally, haemophilia does not require 'inbreeding' to surface - in Victoria's case, it was distributed through the effect of a' dominant progenitor', and that is something that can happen in any population!)'
' Also, genetics is a comparatively modern science: '
Hello have you not heard of Gregor Mendal a monk in who carried out some of the most important initial work on inheritance/genetics without which we would not started to try and look for what carried inheritance of traits from one generation to another. Most modern sciences are little older.
'In/line breeding DOES reduce genetic diversity, that is the whole point of it! But the intention is to reproduce the GOOD qualities. The Arab horse is in a unique position, in that it is the only horse breed in the world that will not allow any acknowledged outside blood to be used as an out cross, which is why it is important not to reduce the gene pool further by culling everything that may test positive for SCID, as some would suggest.'
Yes I agree about not culling positive SCID horse from the gene pool but practicing sensible informed coverings. I think you will find that the TB stud book is a closed one. While line breedings intentions may be to improve just the good qualities it is a plain and simple fact that until we can select how the genes segregate during meiosis, we will never truly be able to select only those genes we consider good and from those we consider bad. Just look at what we have done to the TB, by selecting for speed over all else we have produced a horse that has numerous conformational defects, poor feet being one of them and a reduce longevity. The problem is that line breeding not only concentrates the good but also the bad and will always do so to a greater extent then non line breeding due to the lack of diversity it encourages.
More to the point there is not 'one ideal' conformation that is perfect for a task just look at eventing who would have thought that Charisma, Headley Britania, Tamarillo, Imperial Caviler, Murphy Himself , Priceless, Be Fair and Idalgo de ille all such different body shapes and conformations could all do so well at the same sport. If line breeding was truly the best way to produce an event horse surely you would see the same body type dominating the sport. Not so, confirmation and type can only get you so far in a truly competitive sport. The will trainability and that little something we can not define is what is required.
So where does that leave me with regards to showing, yep you have guessed it it is not a competition or a sport but a beauty pageant where we try to produce an animal that conforms to somebodies defined ideal, regardless of how that ideal relates to the real world and real world practical applications. What the arab world needs to do to 100% is promote the arab horse as a versatile riding horse and a good out cross. Like it used to be considered, ore of us need to get out there and compete in the sporting disciplines, show jumping, eventing, racing, endurance riding to show that the breed is capable and versatile. |
Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 12:45:44 PM
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| Originally posted by Dot
Hello have you not heard of Gregor Mendal a monk in who carried out some of the most important initial work on inheritance/genetics without which we would not started to try and look for what carried inheritance of traits from one generation to another.
Certainly. But Mendel's work was only done in the latter half of the 19th century, and wasn't widely known/accepted until the 20th century (people in the 1930s still believed in telegony, for example), which is why I say genetics is a comparatively modern science. Certainly, the inbreeding in the royal houses of Europe was conducted well before Mendel was even born.
With references to the eventers you mention, they are certainly all far more alike than they are different - none of them is a Shire or a Shetland, for example. And none of them will have been selected for body type per se: leg structure, ability and enthusiasm for the job in hand will also have been a factor.
The existence of foot problems in the TB is not necessarily proof of inherent 'badness' in line/inbreeding: all it is proof of is the unwisdom of basing a breeding programme on ONE selection criterion, instead of taking the whole animal into account - and that applies whether the desired quality is speed, extreme musculature, colour or a pretty head. Any sensible breeder knows that if you select for one factor and ignore everything else, the overall quality of your stock will inevitably suffer. All things considered, the TB has done pretty well in that it has comparatively FEW problems after 400+ years.
I believe in theory is is still possible to introduce fresh blood into the TB, but as the GSB requires 8 generations of crossing to GSB registered stock, the animal in question would require to be highly prepotent to effect any major changes.
Keren |
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