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Wyllow
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 09:25:02 AM
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The West Show ~ a great biannual Jersey two day show with the best of country living, agricultural and equestrian pursuits on display will be on next weekend and I saw that the stunt display team "Rockin' Horses" will be over.
Has anyone caught them at any of the venues they've been performing at recently?
Their act looks HAIR RAISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We've discussed Spirit of the Horse before on Alines but I'm not sure if this team has been mentioned ~ if it has, I must have missed it! I've often wondered about the well~being of animals "on tour" and I know the "Spirit" show caused much comment, for and against ~ just wondering if anyone had any experiences of this show?
For those who don't know what it's all about~
This is their site:
http://www.rockinghorseproductions.co.uk/index.html
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Fine Art & Photography
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Cate Hamilton
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Edited by - Wyllow on 12 Jul 2008 10:44:43 PM
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 09:41:01 AM
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Haven't seen them or heard of them but just had a look at the site.
If you put the riders in spangly costumes instead of what they are wearing, put plumes on the horses' heads and changed the music from rock to traditional circus stuff, it would just be another circus.
Personally---I hate any animals performing in circuses. |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 11:51:47 AM
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My automatic reaction is that I hate "performing" animals too.
Only in this case, it seems to me that the people perform more than the animals!
My main concerns are usually to do with the travelling, temporary stabling arrangements, grazing facilities and so on....not so much as to whther the animals "perform".....what do ALL ridden horses do after all, if not "perform" for us?
They wouldn't race, jump or perform dressage in quite the way they do NATURALLY were it not for their riders.
All our "sports" are performance adaptations of natural behaviour, further "developed" by man who usually needs to be sitting on their backs or directing them from the ground.
Just a thought.
Consider the enormous ammount of travelling done by international competition horses and the demands to "perform" to extremes on top jumpers, dressage horses, eventers and so on.
Just because a traditional attire for showing, jumping or dressage is what we all consider "classical" and not gaudy or kitsch", does that make jumping a 7ft wall in a puissance more or less of a demand on a horse to "perform" than to have him simply gallop across an arena whilst a stunt rider swings from the saddle?
I have also watched the Metropolitan Police's display with jumping through fire and all manner of "moves" and never thought it less than a display of skill. That also goes for the Ride of the Household Cavalry which is a performance to end all performances ~ the horses are incredible......but as part of that display they all lie down......no, not as an amusement ~ it's a practical demonstration of training and trust....horses, after all were once the protection for a soldier firing a rifle from behind the body of his horse used as a sheild! When you look at this display, it's a piece of history.
The moves shown by riders hanging off the saddles of stunt horses are actually emulating an ancient technique whereby mounted warriors used the body of the horse as camoflage and as a shield from arrows or other weapons, but still managed to keep on the move at speed.
There's more than one way of looking at this and I'm playing devil's advocate here!
I honestly think most horses would well prefer to have a settled rountine in familiar surroundings with freedom to graze, interact with companions and have reasonable demands to "perform" .......whether in the jumping arena, the hunting field, the show ring or between the shafts of a carriage......but none of the above are natural activities for a horse either.
Welfare issues raise their heads in every area of the horse world and accidents more frequently seem to occur in "regular" equestrian events such as hunting, racing or eventing......and yet we don't condemn THOSE pursuits, do we?
This subject raises interesting points and it makes for interesting discussion.
At the end of the day, if a horse is well cared for and the activity RAISES the esteem in which the animal is held ~ then it is not the same thing as when an animal is made to look subservient, bullied, brow beaten or rediculed as so often in circuses.
Instead of raising the value of the horse in the eyes of onlookers, he is degraded.
This would be they values by which I judge whether or not an activity is acceptable, together with the welfare issues of the horese's physical and emotional well~being.
Some would say the extreme world of some show horses, trained with whips and posed in exaggerated postures is a bit of a circus ~ it's been said here MANY times before by those people dedicated to their show horses but with a dislike of any kind of exploitation or unnatural displays....but that's ANOTHER issue altogther.
I shall be at the West Show as I am supporting my local branch of Greyhound Rescue of all things.....and I shall see this display anyway.....and evaluate it by first hand experience.
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Cate Hamilton
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Edited by - Wyllow on 06 Jul 2008 2:00:48 PM |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 2:32:42 PM
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Like people, some horses are natural show offs and others hate to be in the spotlight. If the horse didn't like what it was doing it would be incredibly dangerous for the rider.
I saw "Spirit of the Horse" and all the horses were happy and had their ears *****ed and some of them were just amazing the things they did. No horse would do that if it was frightened and bullied. I went to the "stables" afterwards and all the horses were very happy; more than I can say for some of the show horses I have seen at home. My stallion who was gelded and has gone to a family home is learning all sorts of things and he loves it. Mandy bought a book on how to train your horse to do circus tricks for a few pence at a sale and decided to have a go with Khaleef and as he learns very quickly and loves to do things for you he is a natural at it. He will walk on the lorry without even a lead rein.
I don't think it demeans a horse in any way to perform, as you rightly say, Wyllow, that is what we all expect our horses to do to a greater or lesser degree. Please let us know what you think when you have seen the show.
Barbara |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 3:47:11 PM
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I'm going to be very interested to see the horses and hopefully get a look behind the scenes.
I agree ~ if a horse doesn't have the personality to "show off" then nothing you can do to pursude him will make him a performer and the whole effort is an exercise in danger!
I would have thought you need a horse of exceptional temperament and if you read about the individual horses on the site of Rockin' Horses, then it's clear they were VERY carefully selected. They are a motley crew including an Andalusian, a Welsh Cob, a Lusitano.....and an Arab who looks to have retired after a long partnership with his rider. They all look fit and confident and the degree of trust there must be phenomenal and WAY beyond the relationship I have with my horses! Blimey, I'd think twice before even putting away my stirrups on Jasper!!!!!!!!!
When Spirit of the Horse came over here, I was sceptical but went anyway .... and was AMAZED by most of them. In the stables they all seemed calm and happily eating their feeds whilst they were groomed to shining perfection!
Actually, the only horses that did not impress me, were the Arabs who didn't strike me as being entirely comfortable with the set up and when they performed, not all seemed entirely willing either.Some were muzzled during the performance and that to me suggests a reaction smacking of stress and conflict....and I didn't like that one bit. They, however, were the exception. I do wonder if the sensitive temperament of most Arabs is not one that withstands this sort of life whereas the lovely spotted Knapstupper ( spelling??)seemed to be revelling in his "act" with his handler, Rosie and the Fresians and Andalusians seemed full ofthemselves and liking the attention.
I'll definitely let you all know what I think. Spirit of the horse was an education in what can be comfortably acheieved and what possibly should not be asked of a horse depending on his nature. |
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Cate Hamilton
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Jenni5
Gold Member
England
849 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 4:04:05 PM
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| I have seen the horses, but not seen them perform. I have had a slight glimpse of them behind the scenes as they performed at the Merrist Wood Summer Show and they where keeping them in a stable block at the main equine unit, they looked well cared for, and very well behaved. When they wern't performing they where in their stables, but to get some exercise they where lunged in one of the arenas. The owners stayed onsite at the yard in the horseboxes. There is a video on youtube of them performing at merrist wood, will post a link if I can find it. |
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Jenni5
Gold Member
England
849 Posts |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2008 : 5:53:34 PM
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I saw them at the blair atholl horse trials 2 years ago and they were awesome 
Im really upset that they dont come up to Scotland now,you can see clips and read about the horses on their website;rockinghorseproductions.co.uk |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 09:06:44 AM
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just curious, but I have a question for those who do not like the circus.
Could you please tell me the difference between a circus act and dressage, showing, show umping or eventing?
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Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 09:19:16 AM
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Loved the Bloopers!!!!
Check out his write up about Aragon - his polish arab. |
    
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 2:01:09 PM
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Yep Vera, the bloopers do prove how much work must go into the partnership building as anyone else trying this "at home" really would end up DEAD ~ VERY FAST!
I think you do make the point, Dot wherever a horse "performs" and whatever he performs, whether it it is in a show ring, jumping or dressage arena, on a racetrack or at a cross country event ~ he is still performing and the question is, is he fit and happy to do it?
I seem to recall the term "Performance Horse" gets used a LOT to descrbe any horse at the top of his game! |
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Cate Hamilton
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themewoman
Silver Member
England
375 Posts |
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brynmarli
Bronze Member
Wales
241 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 3:42:50 PM
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I think you can see if any horse is miserable 'performing'.
Some horses that show jump/dressage/event/race etc aren't kept in the best of enviroments. These horses are kept in 24/7 only taken out for exercise and sometimes go off the rails, and they get away with it because they are so called 'PROFESSIONALS'.
It sometimes make me think that we expect travelling people with their animals to be fed up, miserable, un-cared for, or even mistreated. But why should there animals be any less loved than we love ours. In fact if their horses/animals aren't cared for, then they have so many people looking at them that someone is bond to notice neglect.
IMO we are a little too quick to judge sometimes. |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2008 : 6:58:48 PM
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I don't want to argue---did say "I personally" in my first post
Three things I don't like about performong animals
1 Quality of life
2 Training methods
3 What you ask of them
Quality of life isn't good for animals who tour around all the time. No turnout, no socialisation with their own kind etc. etc.
Trainig methods. Well---hard to say categorically without being behind the scenes, but I watched both the videos on their website before I said if you dress them in spangles etc. it would just be a circus, and I don't like circus training methods. If you look at these horses they are nearly always wearing standing martingales, side reins, and in some cases pretty severe bits. I particularly disliked a couple of aspects of the second video---the so called "liberty dressage" side reins, standing martingales and circus routines; and the training of a whole squad of men to ride standing up on two horses
What you ask of them. I don't see the point in these stunts other than to show how clever the riders are. I personally don't think it is clever to make horses gallop through fire. They are naturally terrified of fire for good reason.
I agree that there are a lot of show/ competition/dressage horses who have comparable lives, but I don't think that is right either or that it makes this any better.
I have to add I am not against training horses but I think it should be done in a way which enhances the relationship and bond between horse and rider. I would sight as an example Classical dressage which is all about balance and feel,and the "outline" comes from the horse working correctly from behind, compared with the way competitive dressage at all levels is going with the use of gadgets, rollkur etc. to force the horse into an artificial outline.
I repeat---just my opinion---I wouldn't go to see this show |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 09:11:45 AM
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Differences between dressage /show jumping and circus acts to name but a few ;
1. dressage is an extention of a natural skill of a horse, it takes a lot of training ,and work to keep the animal fit and balanced enough to do it----cantering around in a circle with a person( or worse, another animal, maybe a horses natural predator!!) stood on the horses back does not.
2.Dressage/jumping is is a competative sport and there are rules about how much the animal can be expected to do. ..you don,t see a 20stone clown riding a tiny pony at most dressage events.
3. Dressage /jumping horses are not forced to live in squalid conditions alongside other animals who are their natural predator, and they are not dragged from town to town for months at a time ( yes ,I know the international horses travel the circuit but their care and management is not camparable)
4.There are not huge international bodies trying to outlaw dressage competitions because of the horrific treatment of the animals, cruel training methods,untrained handlers and sky high mortality rates.
5. Most importantly .The income of the dressage rider is not dependant, nor does it ever overide the welfare , of the horse. Sadly circus animals are there to entertain FOR MONEY, and as we all know , THAT is when animal welfare goes out the window.
The point is not that the animal is performing for us , it is about the circumstances that brought the animal to that point. It is fair to say that , yes we are watching, and yes the animal is trained to do this, but in SPORT the welfare can be and is guarded, in entertainment it is not.
I think you need to ask, ....if the animal had a choice would they be doing this ?
dressage and jumping ( and racing and endurance and many other equine sports)IS enjoyable for a lot of horses.and we all enjoy watching and participating in these sports.
Performing , living their lives in a circus.....doing things so fundamentally un-natural to them.....I doubt it very much.
Polly-anti-circus-for-the-last 35years.
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 09:52:41 AM
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Do our competitive sports really protect the horses competing in them?
In dressage almost every horse is over bent, same goes for photos in Your horse and other mags. I was taught in a classical style ie on the bit is vertical to 5 degrees in front of vertical and behind the bit was the biggest sin. I have yet to see a dressage horse at international level be marked down for this including Kyra K, the Germans, Dutch and British.
Rolkur exists in dressage and is a debatable practice. I would argue that dressage is natural for a horse, since when was it natural for a horse to be ridden or execute 720 degree turns on the haunches, one or two step flying changes.
Fatality rates in international endurance, eventing and national hunt racing are higher then circus horse deaths, as are leg injuries.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there are good and bad in all spheres of the equine world and it is being able to differentiate between these that is the important thing.
Personally I have nothing against horse being used in displays given they are well looked after and get turn out. Like Polly I object to prey and predator animal being co-located
Personally I think race horses in training have more of a welfare issue. Being incarcerated for 23 of there 24 hours of a day 365 days a year from the age of 1year or less. Being backed and made to work hard when barely 18 months old.
I think the biggest and fastest growing issue in equine welfare is obesity and people treating there horses like a substitute child wrapping them up in cotton wool. Much as I love them horses are a farm yard animal perfectly capable of killing you. Simply by dint of an evolutionary quirk meaning that they were more useful to us to do work rather then as food is why horses are not treated like cows, pigs and sheep. When did you last see a cow or pig in a rug? (I have nothing against clipped horses being rugged.)
as for
I think you need to ask, ....if the animal had a choice would they be doing this ?
The answer to dressage, endurance, showjumping etc is no they would far rather be mooching round a field stuffing there faces.
I asked the question more as a thought provoker then personal opinion. Think it may have done its job... |
Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 10:10:27 AM
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If ANY performance of any animal was educational ( as I believe many equine activities are) I would say they were a useful tool to the develpoment of human/animal interaction. But I firmly believe ( injury and fatality rates aside as I think they are comparative to the number of animals participating) that circuses are outdated and no longer of any use to a civilised society. If a performance of animals is a" display "of them doing something that is un-natural then all it is capable of showing us ,is that we as humans can re-arrange their behaviour at will. Big deal.
Getting back to the original thread....."Rocking Horses" I think if anyone looks at the video, as Zan pointed out ,they will see that there is a lot os severe bits and strapping down. Just the same as most of these "horse displays", be it the spanish riding school, Spirit of the horse etc.
What would truly impress me would be a display (not travelling) of horses expertly ridden, well balanced and cared for ,trained with natural methods, without all the strapping down,living in a natural herd environment ...etc etc but then many of us struggle to achieve this at home....what chance do these display horses have. |
Photos1and2EricGJones
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AyemkayStud
New Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 10:12:53 AM
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Their website has broken my computer - the whole thing froze up!!
As for performing animals - I would much rather see these horses, that are trained to follow voice commands, and often (have not seen the video of this performing group, but have seen others similar) there is very little or no contact on the mouth/reins. Now liken this to the showjumpers that you see, their mouths laden with metalwork, their heads pulled into their chests in an effort to control them. The whips used, the spurs etc... I know what act I would rather sit and watch... |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 11:52:32 AM
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Dressage is ridden discipline of the horse, devised by the military centuries ago so their horses could perform actions that would help give them an advantage and help them to survive in battle (capriole, levade etc).
These days dressage disciplines help to prepare a horse for other equestrian sport, such as jumping (which should be jumping as a cat does; springing upwards in a gymnastic fashion, not galloping wildly at a jump and leaping it lengthways!).
It's a good basis for any horse's ridden life since the development of these athletic techniques, strengthening of ligaments and muscles will help to protect the horse's physical body for other, possibly more exciting, activities! Everyone should do it, whatever their equestrian sport.
Having said all that, a horse, given the choice, will revert to its herd situation, wandering in a group from grazing ground to grazing ground, and will only canter or jump when it has to flee predators.
Circuses and displays are just human forms of visual entertainment and the people watching are ignorant (as are people about the way the roast chicken on their table is produced!). There's a very high 'wasteage' rate of horses in hunting. Is that acceptable? That's an issue that always manages to create vigorous debate here on AL.
I find in unacceptable for any horse to be strapped into an 'outline' for any purpose whatsoever. |
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Edited by - Roseanne on 09 Jul 2008 11:56:15 AM |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 11:59:38 AM
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I think everyone's opinion is to be valued for good reasons given and it is admirable that so much can be said from so many angles on Alines, with everyone expressing themselves eloquently and respectfully despite varying views ~ we should be proud of our Forum as this sort of topic would be guaranteed to spark controversy of a not altogether polite sort on other sites.
I completely agree that anything which degrades or disrespects an animal is totally unacceptable but this can be found is just about ANY area of human-animal interaction. The worst examples are indeed those sort of old fashioned circuses with prey and predators living in close proximity and training methods which invlove punishment or severe restraint.
I agree that the racing "industry" has a LOT to answer for in terms of early breaking of youngsters, strain on young limbs, accidents, confinement to stables fo long periods with both physiological and psychological implications, whipping during races and over facing with jumps at a flat out gallop....etc....etc.....etc.....but no one would think of more tightly regulating THAT, would they, with the tax man getting so much revenue off the "business"?
Still, that doesn't excuse any other pursuit.....and all I can say is that I'll watch this show for myself as I'll be at the show ground anyway......and let you know what I saw and thought.....living conditions, frame of mind of horses at rest, condition, handling.....and the sort of tack used.....etc.
By the way....Police Horses....they are trained to deal with not only fire, but riots, people weilding weapons, loud noises.... and so on.
What does anyone think of the demands made on animals in THIS way?
Should we still be using horses to control potentially abusive human beings at risk to the animals? Should we in this day and age STILL take a horse into a situation of violence where he has to wear a visor or sheild of any sort?
Any thoughts on this sort of "high performance horse" ? |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2008 : 2:22:12 PM
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I don,t have a problem with animals "serving us". Be it Police Horses, sniffer dogs, cadaver dogs, Rescue dogs horses used for transport etc .AS LONG as we ,as a human race, attempt to replicate a comfortable life, are mindful of their needs (emotional and mental as well as physical).and the animals are duly rewarded. I can tell you from first hand experience that Police horses receive very good care, as do cadaver dogs etc. Animals can do jobs beter than robots and machines( I am thinking drug sniffer /cadaver dogs here)
I think it all comes down to having respect for another species. Historically humans are not great at that. |
Photos1and2EricGJones
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 04:57:21 AM
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Its strange some of you talk about the quality of life for a performing horse with them being cooped up all the time, I read many posts on AL about how your horses get stabled at nights and all that now while I don't know the weather conditions of where you live this sounds very similar, I live in Tasmania its one of the coldest places, I don't have stables my horses live out 365 days a year in their respective groups. the ones that need rugging get rugged of course, still I think you'll find that most performing horses get certain times of the year off, when its not viable to perform, really unless you have a performing horse, or live next door to where their "liveried" Sorry but how do you know that they don't live in paddocks with their mates, eating grass & rolling in the mud..okay I think I lost the point there
as others have mentioned there are many sports where a horse has to travel and stay in temp accommodation, I do Endurance & have traveled with my Mare over the little water to the mainland to ride..I don't have my own truck so I have to use transport people, theres only one company here in Aus I will travel my mare with because I know personally that their the best. not to mention they let me travel with them so I can keep an eye on my girl, I've seen how well they look after the horses personally
I don't like hearing things like the horses were muzzled that sounds like cruelty to me, sounds like the horse is being forced to do something it dosn't like or is uncomfortable with, but i hate seeing people use spurs on their horse, or double bridles or whips, or a bucking roller thingy to make a rodeo horse buck I hate watching cross country events where a horse is put in so much danger of injury, most of those pro xcountry courses look like a minefield of maiming, yet people love watching for the skill a horse has I think its because they are addicted to adrenaline... I travel to & ride at endurance events, I wouldn't do this if I thought my mare or stally didn't enjoy seeing different things and meeting new friends,
all i'm saying is before you start condeming some one for their chosen field of equestrianism take a look at what your asking your horse to do, whether its jumping or racing or long distance riding or just plodding up the hill & back, because somewhere in all these things you will always find something completely unnatural for a horse, still somewhere over a thousand years ago we did something that would change the destinies of all equines the world over, actually we probably saved the whole species, as instead of hunting them to extinction for food we've made them partners (well most of us anyways)
Okay somewhere in all this it went from a stunt Riding thingy to circuses, do you guys still have animals at circuses in the UK I'm pretty sure that here we actually put our feet down about the cruel conditions for animals, yes an income reliant show is wrong as this tends to breed short cuts & cruelty, but most stunt riding schools these days train their riders to respect their mounts train to develop a healthy, fun, respectful relationship
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Edited by - Kazhak on 10 Jul 2008 05:06:37 AM |
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Valentine Arabians
Gold Member
United Kingdom
586 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 05:44:22 AM
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I don't want to get into a heated argument about this, but Guido, Sophie and the family (all circus people) live down the road from us and pop in from time to time for coffee. Both Guido and Sophie are passionate about their horses and they are well cared for and looked after. The relationship they have with the horses is brilliant. Training is strict but not cruel or abusive and the horses enjoy themselves...Guido is stricter with the team of riders!
Aragon is now retired, but still very much Guido's baby.
Liz
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Liz & Walter Downes
www.ValentineArabians.com
Lincolnshire |
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skinny sue
Bronze Member
England
219 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 09:05:18 AM
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| Liz you are so lucky to know these people on a personal level. I met them years ago at a bikers event (cant remember were). I got the chance to speak to them, they worship their horses and look after them better than alot of horsey people I know. I remember as they were riding back from a show to the box a stupid biker thought he would be clever and try to upset one of the horses with his motorbike ( practicly impossible) the horse rider , a guy, nearly killed him, he was fuming. After he had sorted the biker out he was so loving to the horse and was nearly in tears. It was really moving. |
sue p |
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Valentine Arabians
Gold Member
United Kingdom
586 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2008 : 11:30:01 AM
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Hi Sue,
Yes, Guido and Sophie are super 'horsey' (probably part horse themselves) people...I haven't met the other riders yet and apart from watching their website and You Tube, I haven't actually seen the display...don't know that my nerves could stand it especially when Guido goes under his horse's belly and up the other side, at full gallop.
The land they have bought, behind Sophie's parents, is fabulous (wish I had that much grazing) and I watched the stables going up with Guido and Sophie's Dad doing all the work...big airy stables! When the display season isn't running, Guido comes over and fusses my lot...yes, they do love horses.
The first time we met Guido, he was looking for a young Arab gelding to replace Aragon in the team now that he is retired, but as we are keeping our boys entire, we couldn't help him.
They are in Jersey at the moment, left last night.
Liz |
Liz & Walter Downes
www.ValentineArabians.com
Lincolnshire |
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