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precious
Platinum Member
 England
2253 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:23:27 PM
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Advice needed
She is a 10year old 14.3 very lively cob mare.
I ride her in a happy mouth snaffle but she really started throwing her head around and pushing the bit to the back of her mouth. She does everything to resist the contact. She HAS had her back and teeth checked all fine.I have tried her in side reins which she goes lovely in until you take them off then its back to normal. If you put harsher bits in she stops and won’t move so i kept with the happy mouth.
A friend of mine was experimenting and put the flash the wrong side of the bit and she wasn’t happy but went nicer as she couldn’t move around the bit.
Has anyone got any advice? Please help as i start to dread riding her My horse is a very hypo mare that gets stressed/annoyed and goes worse if you mess too much.
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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Edited by - precious on 27 Mar 2008 4:28:52 PM
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baxter
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:31:01 PM
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| Can you get her teeth re-checked? The fact she goes better in side reins suggests it's the movement of your hands when she has a bit in? Side reins are a fixed contact (albeit a little elasticated) but the fact she can round to avoid any pain (she determines where that is) and goes nicely suggests she has pain with the reins attached to the bit, however quiet a rider we are, the reins do move with our arms and wrists etc....... sounds pain related, unless she's just being a herbert (i have one of those at the moment) and it's all Spring related i'm sure!!! |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:34:14 PM
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| Hi, if you've checked all the teeth etc then presumably nothing is hurting. Why do you use the flash? Would she go without it? Have you tried an english hackamore? Is is because you are not riding her forward enough? Hard to say without watching it all really but maybe the above might help. |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:39:18 PM
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Thanks :) i will ring the teeth lady out to check them out again, do you know of any bits of nosebands that will stop her pushing the bit back to resist the contact. Its tricky i didnt have her from a youngster so dont know what has happened to her or what she has done in the past. I've had her 3 years but only in the last 6-8 months ive been riding her regular due to riding facilities.
We will never be able to do ridden classes as i dont think they would like the prancing all the way round and not being able to walk. :) |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:44:20 PM
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Hi Suelin, She had teeth and back checked about 3months ago they were shap but then corrected but she has then started this head and bit resiting thing. I started with side reins then the muscle lady said her neck muscles were really tense and painful. Thats sorted again and she is on Nuprafeed muscle calmer.
I can sort of hack her out in a hackamore ive tried english and german one, she is okay on the road if in a good mood. In the school last time i tried she stopped dead and was having a fun bucking session.
She is a very weird horse to explain. People that have watched her run out of suggestions. Its such a shame as she has lovely paces you just cant contain them |
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baxter
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:44:43 PM
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Ooo one other thing check it's not pinching her at the sides of her mouth either, and is correctly fitted and not too low in her mouth, is she grabbing hold of it with her teeth when you say she is pushing it back?
Oh and don't give up on the showing front, 6-8 months is nothing, another 6 months and you'll have a ridden show horse, jsut take your time.
x |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 4:50:19 PM
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Im never going to give up it just gets really disheartening not wanting to ride, she is a very typical mare doesn’t want to bond at all apart from feed time although i really try :)
I’ve had her bridle checked bit height fine its weird you put contact on and her mouth opens pushing her head up and bit back. When you get her head in for all of 1 second she throws her head again to loose it. I’ve had a couple of different good riders on her to see if it was me but to no luck.
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ACGODFREY
Silver Member
United Kingdom
440 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 5:11:48 PM
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Hi, she sounds a bit like to my boy. He behaved very similarly due to (a) the fact that he was backed by an inexperienced teenager who had him in an eggbut snaffle, strapped him down in a flash and standing martingale and booted him on with spurs while holding him in a very tight contact and (b) he had a rotten tooth which caused him so much pain he would fling his head around and refuse to move. This was only discovered on Xray but had caused lots of muscular problems with his back and neck as he was so hollow trying to contort himself in such a way as to ease the pressure adn pain.
Anyway, once the vet problems were sorted we were still left with the behaviour. Vets referred us to a behaviourist and we worked on teaching him to put his head down (this is apparently very calming for them) - gentle pressure on his poll, a carrot held down near the floor and the vocal command were very rapidly learnt. Once he would respond, he was lunged with tack on and told to put his head down. He was then taught the vocal command 'forward'. Sounds bizarre, but very gradually my very tense, stressy little horse learnt to amble around loosely on the lunge with his head lowered which together with physio and work over poles helped his muscles to stretch and recover. A rider was then introduced with VERY light contact encouraging him still to work long and low and then over the space of many months he gradually learnt to work properly through from behind and raise his head as his muscles gained strength. He is still very sensitive to anything other than a very light contact but works well as long as he is allowed to stretch and is not restricted. It was a VERY drawn out process and took well over 18 months to get him to accept a contact and not stress out. If someone other than me rides him and takes too heavy a contact he immediately reverts back to how he was. To me having such a light contact is normal, but most folks find it very odd to hardly have any weight in the hands at all and still marvel at how he puts his head down on command. Of course, your girl probably does not have the same issues, but as you said you don't know what her early experiences were my experience may help you a bit.
Good luck
Anne |
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Red Rum
Gold Member
England
508 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 6:40:47 PM
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| Hi My horse hated a happy mouth. Put in a thin snaffle and fine. Try riding in a hackamore and see if there is any difference. Also some horses like to be warmed up before you can touch their mouths I have such a horse on loan, fine once warmed up for fifteen minutes, if you try to ask for to much contact before, he goes around with his head in between his knees. Mandy |
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suzanna
Bronze Member
Wales
223 Posts |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 7:22:24 PM
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She can't show her as a ridden mare bitless... ~Though if she didn't want to show it's the obvious idea.
One tiny suggestion - since it happened to my Andalusian - check with your finger along the length of the horse's bar to see if a fragment of wolf tooth might have been left behind and risen to the surface! It'll still leave association problems, but will really help to have it removed if such a thing has happened. |
Roseanne |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 9:12:17 PM
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What Anne has said is true I use this method a lot Lowering the head below shoulder level releases endorphines to the brain which relax the horse.
Teaching a horse to lower the head for bridleing is really helpful. I can't beleive the lenghts some people go to to put a bridle on a horse sometimes! I don't just lower the head but by standing at their shoulder I teach them to bend their head towards me to help the process(become a partner).
Before putting a bit in my geldings mouth I made sure he was really happy and confident with me touching his mouth. Using approach and retreat methods I would rub/massage his lips and gums and even hold his tougue.With his head in a lowered position he soon became confident with this and even enjoyed it
All this might take more time than you want to spend,but once they are confident it saves on time for the rest of their life.
A bit is not for stopping and not for steering it is for communication and should create lightness in a balanced horse.I think this is why some horses open their mouths and hold their heads up high,I think it's a reaction to an inappropriate pressure. That's why I dislike gadgets.I think it's important to get a horse going nicely in a natural hackamore so the aids are clear and then introduce a bit for finesse.
Maybe your horse is hyper because she is confused? A confused horse who is not given an instruction it understands will want to evade and leave you. It might also kick or bite if necessary,if the pressure becomes too much.
Good luck in finding your answer at least you love her enough to try and find a better way
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Edited by - Deboniks on 27 Mar 2008 9:13:25 PM |
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Pixie
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
6586 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 9:19:47 PM
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| All very good points made above. Just some things to think about. The bit isn't too low or too high. The bit isn't too fat ie., fat tongue shallow jaw. Ride her from your leg/seat into your hand and make sure your hand is steady and light and even and giving etc etc. Find yourself a really good/sympathetic instructor. You probably have investigated all of this but thats my sixpence worth. Good luck. |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 10:26:27 AM
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Thank you all for your advice, its reasurring to hear that other people have been in same boat.
Does anyone know of a good behaviour person in the Midlands area that would come and watch me ride and see what they think and advise more.
Thanks again im going to try a hackamore again tonight, i rode yesturday in a metal snaffle with no difference. I have tried so many different ones. I just want her to be happy and stress free riding. Hacking she is fine and prancy but doesnt do the head thing.
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 10:29:21 AM
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I have got a very good instructor and it does help abit but its a really struggle even the instructor cant get her head right. Im riding 4-5 times a week and cant afford a lesson each time. I dont want her head show in but just under control. And i dont think its right to have her riding in side reins constantly.
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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karitaz
Gold Member
England
622 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:00:34 AM
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Hi,
Is your snaffle single jointed? I've had a couple of arabs that don't really like the nutcracker action and go much better in double jointed bits. Happy mouth do a double jointed snaffle which my boy seems to like. |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:05:44 AM
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I normally ride her in a straight happy mouth, last nite i rode her in double jointed bit with rings in the middle. I have used my grackle bridle and normal bridles to see if that helps too.
I do jump her in the happy mouth as she doesnt seem to mess with her head while doing a course.
Ive been lunging her aswell lately to try and get her to listen to my voice commands but she doesnt listen just canters around, then comes in to me when she had enough and wants fuss.
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:22:14 AM
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Would agree with all of the above but just add that you might want to get a second opinion on either the teeth or the back if you keep trying various bits with no difference.
I've been through very similar problems and found that the first back person (osteopath) couldn't see anything wrong while the second back person I had out (chiropractor) knew straight away that there was a problem and how to sort it. So even if you think something has been checked it might still be causing a problem without you knowing about it.
Also, and I'm not saying this in a bad way at all as I've experienced it myself, you might just want to ge back to basics to where she's happy before starting to work on the outline again. Some horses who have been pushed too early in life (like Anne's experience) can all of a sudden just say 'no I'm not doing it anymore' and you have to take them back to a happy and comfortable place before they can be put under pressure again. Especially as you say she can be stressy. I would just ease off pressure, get her to carry herself without having to work with lots of rein contact and make her mentally comfy. Once she's calm and relaxed you can ask for a teeny bit of contact, reward her immensly for what you get and then add a little at a time.
If she's jumping without throwing her head around it sounds like she's happy when she's busy having to think about something so it might be mental rather than physical. That's what my boy will do, when he's busy doing complicated work (i.e. having to use all four legs on something) he won't throw his head around, but when he's bored (going around in the school in an outline is top of the list of boring things in his book) he'll do anything to evade having to work (throw head around, throw body around, buck, spook, snake, poo, having to stop and poo, talk to people who come past etc etc).
I can't recommend Lewis Blackburn enough if you're looking for a good NH teacher/trainer/behaviouralist. He's based in Essex but travels all over the place. |
West Sussex |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:37:40 AM
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Thank you so much for your advice, i thought i would get it by posting it on here.
I'll look into that lady and give her a call.
I’m willing to try everything and anything to help as long as Fran is happy. I do sometimes feel like giving up as yest i rode her without getting anywhere I then put a girl off the yard on her and she was a little bit calmer. Mite be a coincident or that the girl weighed nothing and i do :) but i would never sell her as she is the sort that people wouldn’t put up with and she’ll get passed around like she has been most of her life so far.
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 11:43:56 AM
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Man sorry, ive got his website up it looks good :)
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 1:59:50 PM
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If you like her - don't give up!!!! I've been down the dumps with my boy many times as he's the same, nobody else would put up with him. But due to perseverance, patience and lots of strong will he's now a million times better
Another tip - try a calmer, might just help to make her a bit more level headed. You can then wean her off it when you think she's going better. I know I'd much rather have a safe horse on a calmer than try to cope without.
And Lewis is as good as his website says he is   |
West Sussex |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 2:10:48 PM
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Ive tried a number of calmers even one brought in from australia vet prescribed. The best one ive tried is the nuprafed one thats calmed her down on a hack and allows her muscles to be more relaxed but head got worse maybe cos she is more relaxed i dont no. But in general on it 100% better, doesnt look like shes going to kill me in the stable.
Thanks again :0) ill keep you posted and mite be PM ing you for more advice.
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Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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emma
Gold Member
816 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 3:14:23 PM
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| Echoing what someone else said earlier an eggbut snaffle is harsher often giving a nutcracker/ pinching action a better alternative is a french link snaffle |
Emma
Fulmer House Arabians
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suzanna
Bronze Member
Wales
223 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 4:39:49 PM
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Roseanne,
We should all be able to show our horses bitless , and the sooner this changes the better place for our horses. I know we all think putting a bit in our horses mouth is o.k, but is it . Just because its the norm doesn`t make it right. |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 10:15:59 PM
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| Well said Suzanna!!! I think you should collect extra points for using minium gadgets I have seen naturally collected horses doing dressage and it's an awesome sightNo tightness of the jaw etc........beautiful .....AND.....TRUE HORSEMANSHIP! |
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LOU
Gold Member
England
637 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 10:12:33 AM
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Hi,
I dont know if this will help, my boy who is 9 now gets very cross whilst schooling very stressed with being put under any kind of pressure, I took the gear of no flash no martingale just a german hollow mouth snaffle, and thanks to Homeopathy and the web site www.karasel.co.uk we seem to have cracked it they do tablets for anxiety and tension without the calming affect that I didnt need, and we away, so far so good.
Not sure if this a help to you, good luck
Louisa |
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