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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 4:31:59 PM
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Can anyone identify this horse on the allbreeds please, the one I'm interested in is the Henry Wynmalen one, born 26th January 1931, was shown at Roehampton. bred by Count Esterhazy's Stud in Hungary and traces back to th foundation mare Espagnola.came from the illustrious SHAGYA family.
I understand that in 1831 this line got a boost of TB blood through a thoroughbred called RICHMOND, & can anyone identify this horse.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 07 Dec 2007 2:06:44 PM
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 8:17:23 PM
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Hi Sue
The horse you are looking for is, I believe, Basa Shagya XV11 on allbreeds. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 8:40:26 PM
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Hi Lynda,Can't find it listed..Sue. (there a good article in the 1985 AHS News No 64 about this horse & Henry Wynmalen.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 26 Nov 2007 10:22:05 PM |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2007 : 10:13:43 PM
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Sue I'm sure I have info on Basa in one of my old breeding books, will try and look it up and post some pics if pos |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 10:24:16 AM
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| Trying to trace the Shagya's is mind blowing, as so many have the same name but with different numbers. The link that Bia has given is definitely the horse that was owned by Henry Wynmalen. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 2:41:16 PM
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Thanks a lot folks, like a bit of a brain teaser,the article says they introduced TB blood in 1831 from RICHMOND, and the line traces back to Espagnola, could Espagnola be spelt more than one way, anyone got any infor of the breeding of this mare. Thanks so far will now take a look at these lines, this BASA 1931 seems to have loads of off springs, will see if I can find any with Richmond in the bllod.....back later folks & thanks Sue
Bia, I do hope you mare is going on well, we have all been thinking of you... Sue
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Concerto, was one sired by Henry Wynmalen horse and won the Lady Yule Trophy and this is his breeding as listed on allbreeds, does it match ???????. (BASA 8)
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/basa8
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Whitsun. was another.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=WHITSUN2&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
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Ibrahim, was another.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ibrahim6
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Bascar. another.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=BASCAR&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
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Looks like we're cracking it now folks,as Bascar is listed as bred by Henry...& is registered PBAR Vol.IV..
Do you think I'm safe to add this pic of Henry & his Basa now...
 Thanks folks...Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 26 Nov 2007 3:14:08 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2007 : 4:36:10 PM
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Hi Sue
You're spot on with Bascar. Also Marguarite de Beaumont (Shalbourne Stud)sent June to Basa, who produced Honeysuckle...and the rest, as they say, is history. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 2:22:24 PM
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Sue I have found LOTS of Basa and one of Bascar (Basa x CarmenII) will scan and add them
and Bascar
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Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
Edited by - Jingo on 27 Nov 2007 3:27:30 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 4:32:08 PM
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WOW, Thanks Jude, Thats what we call a horse. I'm having difficulty identifying him on the allbreeds, the girls tell me he's this one, but I have my doubts. Julia Wynmalen refers to him as BASA SHAGYA XIII - 3, which doent match the girls reference there's comes up as XVII.....any thing in your info to help or confim..please Sue
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/basa-shagya+xvii-3 |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 27 Nov 2007 4:36:12 PM |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2007 : 10:10:32 PM
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Sue, the progeny listed under this stallion are mentioned in my book as being by Basa - Molly Malone was one of Wynmalens mares I believe (she had TWO sets of twins by Basa!!!)
The only quote is "Basa who is of the Babolna Stud's Shagya breed, is a grey, with a pedigree extending back to 1798, covering thirteen generations; his ancestors were predominantly white or grey horses." and
"Basa foaled in 1931 at Count Esterhazy's Stud at Tata, Hungary, from a long line of impeccable ancestry"
Hope this helps |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2007 : 11:51:53 AM
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Thank you Judith, My reference states that SHAGYA the desert arabian stallion was bought from the Bedouin in 1830, extending back to 1798, to Espagnola, it also says that in 1789 BASA stamped his progeny...so there is more pedigree further back, somewhere if any one can help. It also says that in 1831 & 1839 Thoroughbred blood was introduced.....with 256 names of ancesters.
and after just waking up, I realize that my own mare has this BASA in her pedigree through a mare call GEZIREH 1950, a grey, although my mare was Liver Chestnut & that must have come from GARARA a chestnut (Gharbi/Goldlight)...Thanks Sue. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 28 Nov 2007 4:12:59 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2007 : 4:00:03 PM
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Anyone got the Anglo Arab Stud Book Vol.V, page 19, can you help me confirm how this BASA (Shagya XVII-3)born 26.01.1931 @ TATA Stud. is listed and his breeding as written down with the society.....please. Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 02 Dec 2007 4:01:12 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2007 : 5:11:02 PM
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The earliest Anglo stud book that I have is volume 6, but I found the following information in the appendix of Vol 1X, as follows:
The information in this appendix is to enlarge on the details given in the preface to Anglo Arab stud book Vol V111 relating to the Anglo Araber Section. The Anglo Araber section of the Anglo Arab stud book was created to properly record the descendants of Basa(Shagya XV11-3), an araber horse bred by the Tata Stud of Count Esterhazy and imported into England in 1935. This horse had initially been classified and passed by council as a Part bred Arab, but at a later date it was decided that this horse with his progeny from Thoroughbred, Anglo arab and Arab mares and their descendants should be listed in the Anglo Arab stud book in the section therein confined to horses not eligible for the G.S.B. This decision, which was technically incorrect, was altered by the Council of the Arab Horse Society in 1975 and it was decided that the eligible descendants of Basa (Shagya XV11-3), when the prgeny solely of Thoroughbreds, Arabs, and Anglo Arabs, should be listed in the Anglo Araber Section. Stud books do exist in other European countries for Araber horses and it is hoped that this section will lead to greater international conformity.
Hope this helps a bit, and in the meantime, I shall contact a friend who has the Shagya books. |
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Rozy Rider
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United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2007 : 5:41:26 PM
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Hi Lynda,Can you tell me how Henry's horse is recorded as BASA ???? or what. Thanks Sue.
I think he's the BASA (Shagya XVII-3) (British Part Bred 1495)we know he was born on 26th January 1931.
My own horses PBA register mentions BASA in three different ways.
BASA (Shagya XVII-3)(Imp).
BASA (imp).
BASA A.A.S.B. Nol.V.Pg 19.
All the same horse.
and on the NPS he's listed as Shagya Basa A.S.R.pg 35. GSB & AHSB.
Was the Shalbourne horse SHAGYA BASA, born 1945.(found him in a 1962 AHS mag at stud).
Thanks Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 02 Dec 2007 8:00:08 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2007 : 8:43:39 PM
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Hi Sue,
I will have a lot more information in a couple of days, as I phoned my friend who is a fund of knowledge with pedigrees. She has a book called Bablona ans its Arabs, and in it it states Basa 1931 also known as Shagya XV11 by Shagya XX11 (1911) out of 174Shagya XX1X. She has been able to trace back to Great, great grandparents - back to the original arab in 1830. The problem with the Shagyas is that depending where they stood, sometimes their names were changes. Basa having -3 after his name meant that he was the third son of that mating. It is very complicated. I am sure that the Basa that was used by the Shalbourne stud was Henry Wynmalens. Shagyas are either Pure bred or part-bred.
As soon as I hear anything, Ill let you know.  |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 08:45:11 AM
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Hi Sue, I saw that Bascars' dam is Carmen II (text in the pic) but on allbreed it says Carmen IV
Bia |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 2:24:49 PM
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Hello Sue,
In one of my H&H Year Books 148/49 there are some results from the Arab Horse Show.
one reads as follows;
Anglo-Arab Stallions.- 1 and champion. Mr H. Wynmalen's Basa Shagya XVII.
In the text it says, "June, who caused a sensation in hack classes a couple of seasons ago, evoked a stir with her filly Honeysuckle by Basa(Honeysuckle VI, No 9842 in Hunter Stud Book, my comment) a loveley yearling who looks as if she will be a credit to her breeding. Miss de Beaumont showed her and her half brother Dragya, by Basa in the half-bred yearling class."
Re; Shagya Basa, there is a stallion advert in the same book for "Basa" and one for "Shagya" (Basa-Chocolate Cream) listed as owned by H. Wynmalen.
I've found a picture of June (Honeysuckle's dam) . |
Edited by - Melynda on 03 Dec 2007 4:14:03 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 3:56:41 PM
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| Honeysuckle is also registered as a part bred. The Dam of Shagya Basa namely Chocolate Cream was a pure bred. Basa is registered with the AHS as Basa imp(Shagya XV11-3)by Shagya XV11 out of 174 Shagya. That is the only breeding that there is - but I will have the full pedigree in a couple of days. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2007 : 4:57:04 PM
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Thanks Folks, spot on the mark again, so pleased we're all talking about the same horse.The all breeds fails to bring him up unless you add all the dots & dash's and I can't see anyone doing that who's searching for this horse with little or no knowledge,there does seem to have been a great deal of confusion about this and the other Shagya horses, I think he should be recorded as a straight BASA 1931,with his breeding & numbers all added,this would identify him, what do you all say......answers here please...
As for Carmen, can't find anything that relates to her as II or IV, so if anyone can turn up CARMEN pre 1938, as this is the year Bascar was born or might know where she went etc. etc., she is not listed on all breeds with any other progeny which seems a bit strange after she bred such a cracking foal in Bascar, you'd have thought Henry would have returned her to the horse, again & again.
and I can find no record of the other two offsprings from the same line as BASA 1931, can anyone else find them..
The link Bia left for the Australia is good
http://ahsadata.com/studbook/pedigree.cfm?ahsid=229536
and I's a pity we can't add to the information they already hold, seems they've done a realy good job of recording the breeding lines, hope they are all correct, and hope Lynda's pal with come up with the goods...
Thanks for June and her picture, you lot do work well together, what a team.... back later..Thanks a nd keep the good work up.
just bought the two old NPS registers off ebay..1936 - 1940.ish.
Thanks Sue.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 03 Dec 2007 5:28:38 PM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2007 : 11:24:40 AM
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I have just found Henry Wynmalen's book which I knew I had somewhere. Amongst lots of photos is one of A hunter mare and foal. The mare is Dona Clara with filly foal by Kindred (GSB), and states that the filly Carmen 11 became the dam of Bascar 16.3 by Basa (Property of the Author).
Also written in the book is: "My own stallion, Basa, who is of the Bablona Stud's Shagya breed is a grey, with a pedigree extending back to 1798, covering thirteen generations. His ancestors were predominately white or grey. This horse has had a very successful stud career and has served a large number of mares, as many as forty in a season. Though the mares have been of all colours, and types of breeding, I have yet to hear of one single offspring that did not turn out a grey".
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 1:58:13 PM
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Hi folks, Now added June XI pic to allbreeds and have now found the Lipizzaner blood (1888) & Warmblood (1799) & Richmond the TB Blood 1830. and altered Carmen to II...any breeding for Dona Cara ????....
Keep it coming will be interested to have your pals info on the shagya line. and wonderimng how many we had in the Country around the 1930 - 1940ies. & Thanks..Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 08 Dec 2007 10:37:21 AM |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2007 : 6:02:30 PM
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Hi Sue,
The info on Basa arrived in the post earlier today. I have checked on All breeds, and the pedigree that is on there for "Basa" is the correct one. There are just a few notes to add i.e. where various animals were born, and where stallions stood etc.
The notes that came state that Basa - also known as Shagya XV11-3.
Shagya XV11 (1911) was at stud in Radautz from 1916-1919. In Piber from 1919-1921 then went to Babolna from 1922-1928 where his name was changed to Shagyar XX1. Four brothers of Shagya 11 all born in Mezohegyes had their names changed when they went to Babolna. The last name change was in 1993, the first in 1865.
Some of the Shagya pedigrees go back to the turn of the century when there are quite a few thoroughbreds in the list. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2007 : 10:44:21 AM
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Hi Melynda,All interesting stuff, Could you leave me the info on the TB blood,dates & names please I'm interested in that, the rest will take some sorting out swopping names must have caused some problems then, as it will now... I'm also looking at Tajar 1851,
& O Bajan 1880 - 1910 & O Bajan 1855, all who turned up at Babolna Stud. The 1880 O Bajan had 312 foals while there, just got to find the records. one or two pictures turning up which look interesting, and the other breeds.While FAVOR 1847, brought some Lipizzaner blood. Thanks Sue
O Bajan 1880 - 1911. 312 foals born.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 08 Dec 2007 10:53:33 AM |
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