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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 08:28:52 AM
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I was speaking to a friend the other day & she told me that she had heard that there are less than 100 pure Crabbet Arabians left in the UK - is this true? Does anyone know how many there are, also how many all Old English / GSB Arabians there are?
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 07:31:34 AM
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Alexia, I just wonder if the reason owners of 100% Crabbet and high % Crabbet mares have bred out is that for some time Crabbet/Old English was not very popular. This unpopularity went some way to my decision to geld my nearly 99% stallion some years ago. This incidently was only one reason why I did this as he was also becoming very frustrated as it did not have any mares.
Needless to say he has had a wonderful life as a gelding with his new owner. Although I suppose you could say the reasons are connected.
At the time people were not so interested in the 'old-fashioned' arab and seemed to be keener on the outcrosses.
I have had quite a few people recently asking why I gelded him. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 1:24:12 PM
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Speaking as someone from the 'other side of the fence'  , my reasons for using an outcross is that to a large extent, I found British lines back in the 1970s & 1980s far too beefy for my taste (for those of you who were not around then, there were so many stocky, overweight chestnut sabinos in the breed that Ascot sometimes looked like a mini-Hereford show!). In fact, if I hadn't come across the Egyptian/Old English cross, I would probably not have continued with Arabs, I was so disillusioned.
That is why I prefer the Babson/low Nazeer EAO cross on Old English: it gives me the combination of dryness, correct conformation, performance ability and temperament that I want. I should perhaps point out that I started with a Babson/Old English foundation mare!
Annette Hedley has said that she brought The Shah into the UK to return certain Crabbet lines to the UK that had been lost - there is no doubt that he crossed superlatively well with Crabbet stock even if he wasn't able to resolve the 'Rissalix back' 100%.
A friend outcrossed to Egyptian lines because they did not like the question mark hanging over certain Crabbet horses (I'm sure you all know what I mean), plus they had experience of SCIDS in Crabbets and did not want to risk having SCIDS foals. Since in those days there was no test, this was a sensible line to take.
As a preservationist breeder, I do believe that the source groups *should* be maintained - and I think that it would help the Crabbet cause immensely if EVERY Crabbet breeder had their stallion SCIDS-tested and the result made public. No doubt there are many people on AL who read of Gunni's tragedy with her filly last year, and are leery of using Crabbet stallions in case they too end up with such a trauma on their hands.
IMO, the loss of Courthouse lines is the biggest tragedy to hit the UK Arab scene. I am glad that Melanie G-B is trying to preserve Barton Lodge breeding, but she can't do it all on her own!
Since my mare is a cow to live cover, (annoying as I have my own very nice stallions!) I am thinking of AI-ing her to Spearmint next year to reinforce my Courthouse damline.
Keren |
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oddellie
Bronze Member
England
126 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 11:44:02 PM
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| i have a mare on breeding loan afican kismet in foal the sire is prince santros,the stallions are very hard to find,hope to keep the line going very sad that there are so few. |
a.white |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 09:51:24 AM
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The tragedy in my case was that I didn´t know that there was something called scid.There are still breeders out there, that is not testing for it.
This year, as most of you know I have a lovely colt that is scidclear, and if he developes as looks like, he carrie hes fathers line in the scidclear way.
For me it is very, very difficult in the matter that I live in another country, there is transport, registration a.s.o. that I have to pay everytime I wish to have something else.
Allthough Diane borrow me Melissa for free it cost me around 1300£ to have her over and back again.
This summer I spend over 2200£ trying to inseminate the tree mares, but it turns up that the semen was not proberly conservated, so unfortunately, no foals next year.I have the stud fee back, but that was the smallest money, the stabling, transport and treatment of the mares runs up to 2000£.
It was my last savings, but had hoped for at least one or two foals.
I am now so old that I am on pension and didn´t have that kind of money anylonger.
I have tried to borrow and also buy a new stallion, but I have to have them tested before I can do it, and it take some time and in between they are sold. Now it is it, no money for that sorts of thing.
Scid is not that bad as long as you know the status, a scid carrier is sound and healthy but the problem is, when you are not able to have another ,in my case, stallion.
On the other hand my Lenny is a marvelous horse in any ways and make lovely foals.
Gunni.
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 10:31:50 AM
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Keren to ad to this it is NOT ONLY Crabbets that have SCID please remember that. All arabians can have it.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 10:41:39 AM
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| I know how you feel Gunni. I was hoping to put Anna to a Crabbet/Old English purebred this year but due to the mistake the vet made it was too late to cover her when I found out that she was not in foal for this year. I now think I cannot put her in foal next year as I will retire in 2009 and will probably be moving abroad and Oh does not think its good idea. |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 11:14:13 AM
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Because I was the one that told my story about scid, some people may think it is only in Crabbet, and also that many Crabbets are scidcarriers. There are more of them that are clear, but if you only use the clear ones some bloodlines will get lost, in my oppinion it is much better to try to take this line with you, breeding carrier to nonecarrier.
As long the horses body, legs and temperament is good, a scid carrier will be a good riding horse who can be a joy to hes owner, and the crabbet over and over shows us that they are good riding horses.
Are they clumpsy, red and with a lot of white? My Crabbets are not clumpsy, Martini 99%+ crabbet is very refined and so is Lenny to. Only Mead has a lot of white, and I choose her because of that.
Gunni. |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 11:54:01 AM
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I know a chap who is selling both his pure Crabbet mares, one mare is 23 and her daughter is 6 and foaled a lovely colt foal to my stallion, AH Walkyria Bhaltos, this year. I have cut and pasted the following info sent to me about the breeding. Adam's own stallion now dead was El Zingaro, the 23 year old mare is Charmane and the 6 year old is Gitano Maraquita all as below. If anyone would like to see photos of Maraquita and foal then please email me as I cannot get the hang of posting, also I can furnish you with telephone numbers. Charmane is also a lovely looking mare who did well in the showring.
'''Gitano Marquita'' is Charmane ( Sire Ringing Sovereign out of Ringing Derida) and El Zingaro ( Blue Rainbow out of Simona).
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kastell
Silver Member
France
430 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 1:20:45 PM
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| Hi, thanks for your reply Alexia, maybe the Crabbet Organisation could do some research & write an article on Crabbet / Old English numbers? I bet it would be very interesting reading, possibly quite shocking. I'm sorry to hear re Gunni's sad loss due to SCID, I agree all breeding Arab Stallions should be SCID tested & results made public. |
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 3:34:09 PM
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Hi Cate, Sorry to say but the mares are not 100% Crabbet because Mikeno is not 100% he has Algol behind him, and if Algol does not come through Dargee he is not accepted as pure Crabbet. I think there is more non Crabbet behind them, but have to check that. Non the less are they wonderfull old english mares. And thats the problem as well, a lot of people think they have a pure crabbet, but instead they are old english.
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 6:35:34 PM
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Thanks Lynn (Georgiauk) have emailed the pics to you and Lila thank you for your information also.
Cheers..Cate |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 09:28:00 AM
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I do try to breed my GSB lines 'straight' though not every year, it just depends.
Surely the point is to try to breed a good horse of any blood lines, not just a bit of paper though whilst saying that, it is great to preserve blood lines IF the resulting foal is a good one.
Regarding SCID, I, like Gunni, would breed tested carriers to tested non-carriers in order to preserve bloodlines but now certainly would not breed without knowing the SCID status of each stallion or mare, and I now apply this to all my horses regardless of bloodlines. We also insist that any visiting mare coming to any of our stallions be tested though some mare owners are not happy about this.
Oh, of course, then the resulting off-spring of a carrier/non-carrier mating would have to be tested and you could get a pleasant surprise with a foal that is SCID free/clear.
By the way, Spearmint is tested SCID clear !
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 2:33:56 PM
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| Originally posted by Lila
Keren to ad to this it is NOT ONLY Crabbets that have SCID please remember that. All arabians can have it.
Monique
Monique, yes I know SCID is found in other lines - however, in the circumstances I was talking about (30+ years ago), SCID in the UK was *first* found to be present in Crabbet horses...hardly surprising, since virtually all Arabs in the UK at that time were straight or high percentage Crabbet! The situation with SCID and SEs is not 100% certain at present: however, if it does occur the percentage appears to be very low in SEs. Therefore, by outcrossing to SEs, my friend with the Old English lines was taking the best course she could with the knowledge available at the time, especially as one of the Crabbet horses she had used had been 'fingered' as a possible carrier (erroneously, as it later turned out).
The reason I say that all Crabbet stallion owners should test their horses and make the results public is simply because there *are* so few Crabbets left: with a limited gene pool, you need to make the best selection possible. I don't believe in culling carriers, but I do believe that mare owners should be in a position to make an educated choice and not have to go through the agony that Gunni, her foal and mare suffered.
Mind you, I do think that *anyone* who makes their stallion available for public use should have him tested and make the result known - regardless of bloodlines.
Keren |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 2:43:10 PM
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Originally posted by VygodaSurely the point is to try to breed a good horse of any blood lines, not just a bit of paper though whilst saying that, it is great to preserve blood lines IF the resulting foal is a good one.... ...By the way, Spearmint is tested SCID clear !
Amen to that, Jane! I once went to look at a stallion who on paper, should have been outstanding...he was everything but! Needless to say, I didn't use him, even though he carried lines that were almost impossible to find in the UK at the time.
You can't breed an outstanding horse just by shuffling paper, any more than you can by mating two random individuals. But careful consideration of the HORSES in the pedigrees, together with an honest appreciation of the plus and minus points of the mare and stallion, do help reduce the likelihood of getting a foal lacking the desired attributes.
Jane, your philosophy is amply justified by the results you achieve - no matter what the bloodlines, you consistently produce balanced, well put-together Arabs that are excellent horses as well. That is so nice to see! I wish I lived nearer to Al Waha so that I could go and feast my eyes on a more frequent basis
Keren |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 3:51:59 PM
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Excuse me, but in my ears it sounds like you think that I would use any horse as long as it is a crabbet.It is absolutely wrong, I most say that if I find that the horses is bad, I will stop breeding, just as so many other crabbetbreeder has done.
I will not begin to outcross, see no reason for that, as in my oppinion there are more foals than needed and people has a hard time to have them sold and find good homes for them, the result of this is dumping prices and arabians that people don´t value because many of them are not rideable.Some of them ending their days in a horrible way.
I have looked foreward to se what my horses can breed and I am satisfied, the foals have good legs, shoulders, small, short heads, not that big dish, which I in fact don´t like.
I don´t like many of the showhorses, with their stif hindangulations and bad legs, sorry, have no word to say it more politely. A medal on a show means nothing to me, when I see a world senior champion with legs like an old milkcarthorse.
I like the outcross, russian/crabbet is great so is egyptian /crabbet to, and it is my hope that people will still value the crabbet, crabbet/old english, GSB for what they are, so in the future they will be able to use this lines, hopefully all of them scidclear.
Gunni. |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 8:12:48 PM
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Gunni, I think you misunderstood, Keren is not saying that you just breed anything. In fact she says that you are doing the right thing, like Jane says. Non carrier to carrier is no problem. I think you are doing the best you can Gunni!!! And i have seen the horses they are gorgeous.
And yes Keren I think so too that everybody should test their horses, mare and stallion, because sticking your head in the sand now that we can TEST is plain stupid IMO. But anyway, I think that there are only just a few Pure Crabbets left in Europe. So maybe we should stick our heads together and buy some in Australia???
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2007 : 09:13:58 AM
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Sorry I don´t meant to be rude or sour, but people are allways hanging on to , don´t look at the papers, look at the horses. But if you are breeding pure, this or that, you first have a look at the papers, then a look at the horse.
I am not able to discuss as, in fact, I know very little of what there has been in the past and I love when Alexia and others find time to tell something.
When my old girls died, I try again some other lines an they disappoint me, so I decided that my next should be crabbet.I did it because I needed a reason to breed and because my old ones has some crabbets in them.
I don´t like to sell my horses and the fact is that I have none for sale, alltough there is asked for the boy of Martinis, time will show.
Talk to a women a months ago and she meant, that there was arround 40 mares of pure crabbets in the breeding ages now in UK.
A thing that has make me very happy is, when people see my horses in flesh, they are surprised how good they look also i DK there is a hangover about clumpsy, fat, little red ponies.
Many other arabs are clumpsy and fat, take a look, at some of the polish and spanish.
It disturbing my plans with the scid, but I will try to make the best out of it, but will not another time be so openmouthed.
Kind regards and appoligise if I have sounded harsh I know you are all nice people.
Gunni.
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2007 : 09:23:20 AM
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Gunni,
With your experience about SCID, and with you being so open about it, it really clarified my mind and made me take action about SCID testing my horses.
I can't thank you enough for your postings.
Jane
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Lindsay
Gold Member
Scotland
944 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 1:26:51 PM
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I have a high % Crabbet mare Silver Shadow (Red SHadow x Sula Minisca) and do hope to breed from her in the future but being in the NE of scotland my choices to carry on her 100% Old English bloodlines are VERY limited. One of the stallions i did consider was a SCID carrier but my mare (thankfully) tested clear.
Does anyone know of any high % stallion in Scotland that are preferably SCID clear? |
   
Paidir dóibhsean le fiántas ina gcroíthe acu, atá coinnithe i gcaighin |
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NatH
Platinum Member
England
2695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 3:00:08 PM
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If anyone is looking for a Crabbet stallion, I know where there is a lovely bay
He is half brother to my stallion, that I lost in December
Oddellie ~ I know your mare African Kismet, I remember her as a yearling at Moat House Stud, where she was bred |
Natalie
Chapel Lane Arabians
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 4:05:53 PM
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Hi Natalie,
Can you tell us who he is and his breeding?? He surely is not pure crabbet?? Or do you think he is??
Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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oddellie
Bronze Member
England
126 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2007 : 4:16:30 PM
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 hi natalie
what can you tell me about her,she is so lovely she licks you she is so loving any information would be most grateful |
a.white |
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