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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 6:58:09 PM
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Hi everyone,
I'm new to all this so please bear with me!!!!
I have been tracing the breeding of a foal I have agreed to buy subject to vetting and I was hoping someone might be able to fill some gaps in for me.
Sundowner (1961) was a palomino stallion all breeds data say was sired by a horse called Starguard out of a mare called Tormella.
Allbreeds say that this Starguard was a palomino but there are no further details, however, there is an arab stallion also called Starguard with a full history and I wondered whether Sundowner was actually sired by him?
Also the mare Tormello - does anyone know anything about her?
Would be really grateful for any help as its quite interesting to get the whole picture.
Thanking you all in anticipation.
Info Sponge
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 9:42:45 PM
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Hi, Welcome to AL!
There is no Arabian with the name Starguard.. it was a miss-spelling for the stallion Stargard++ (US). I've corrected it in allbreed! Not much help to you, sorry!
Bia |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 9:50:34 PM
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Stargard, grey stallion is featured in one of the AHS publications, "guide to Arabian horses in great Britain," issues one or two I think. His pedigree is listed there. He would be Crabbet, as he is in my former stallion's pedigree. he was either / or sired a British National champ., I think from memory.
if no-one else finds it then I will have a hunt for the old book. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 11:27:29 PM
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Oh yes, he is much nicer than the US-one Sue! He could be the father to Sundowner, but who knows!
Bia |
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jackie k
Gold Member
Wales
889 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 10:15:25 AM
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Hi
Have you tried the British Palomino Society Secretary Mrs Howell. She has very good knowledge on horses from way back...
Jackie |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 2:07:43 PM
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| I think you need a bit more info.. does the person who has your foal, got any more info a bout the breeding and if they were/are registered any where, if they are part bred there would have been a choice, part bred welsh, arab,palomino (do they have a stud book) and the National Pony Society...or somewhere else...you need a few more clue's and years of birth.. I've just looked in my PBA register for 1969/70 and there is a mare called Stardust (PBA.V.) closest I've found, she was covered by Bubbly, another palomino, and produced Shepley Snowbubble 1967, Shepley was another palonino breeder. |
Sue
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 4:02:00 PM
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Pony Stallion Guide Season 1971
Listed in Part Bred Arab section and in the Palomino section is Sundowner (no breeding details) Owner; Mr & Mrs T. J. C. Munday, Monclare Stud, Manor Farm, Swindon, Nr. Dudley, Worcs.
There is also another picture of Stargard (white looking as 20 years-old) His owner was Miss C. M. Cooke, Westwood cottage, Jervaulx, Ripon, Yorks. |
Edited by - Melynda on 13 Sep 2007 4:12:34 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 6:20:40 PM
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I think there is two entries for Sundowner on allbreed.
One as Sundowner and the other is Kimberley Sundowner.
It seems to be the same horse as breeding Stargard and Tramello is the same on both.
Not much more info there but thought it might help. |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 8:07:24 PM
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Just spent ages replying to you all and I've lost it! Hopefully this will post ok and I'll find sometime to respond and thank you all again shortly.
Best regards,
Info Sponge |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 10:35:49 PM
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Theres a Sundowner PBAR VI, sire of Sunstar of Heathton (1970)Male. Mrs Mundy also has an entry in the PBAR X, for
Monclare's Morming Cloud (1970) Pal all by Sundowner PBAR VI.
Monclare's Desert Sunset (1970) ches.
Monclare's Golden Impala (1970) Pal "
Monclare's Golden King (1970) Pal
Monclare's Golden Crown (1970) Pal
Monclare's Golden Mandarin (1969) Pal
anyone got the PBAR VI and can they chech for us please.. Mrs Munday always kept an Arab stallion or two...In 1975 Monclare had two Arab Stallions, Risslan (1961) & Blue Rainbow (1963).
and
Summerlyn Martini Sweet(1970) was by Sundowner and so was
High Kick (1970) |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 14 Sep 2007 09:30:01 AM |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 07:59:04 AM
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| I think Stargard was the sire of Taravao who was owned by a man in Sussex who also owned Faro, Gandalf (Argos breeding) and another stallion whose name I cannot remember. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 09:28:00 AM
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Your right Tamila, H Pannell,Barfoot Arabians,Shorham on Sea, owned,
Taravao (1969)Grey.15h. Stargard/Tahiti.AHSB XI.Purebred Arab's and
Faro (1971) Bay.15h.FarII/Shadora.
in 1975 standing at Stud listing.
Mylinda, Could you look in your stallion 1971, for Solway North Wind, please, please, and tell me what it says if he's there...Thanks Sue
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 14 Sep 2007 11:54:53 AM |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 11:05:13 AM
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I know we haven't quite got there yet but I am so far totally amazed at how helpful everyone is being!
It's quite funny really when I agreed to buy this foal the detail of the breeding wasn't that important to me. It was a lovely foal, I liked mum and dad and the half brothers I saw and the owners were very nice and that was enough, however, once I looked at the sire's side of the breeding, which was easy to find, I became really interested to find out more about the dam's breeding.
I have found that the foal's dam (Cromer Cornetta) was bred by Joan Latchford. She wss by Cromer Carramax who was by a pure arab Korran out of a mare called Shepley Sundancer. Shepley Sundancer was apalomino part bred arab by Widdicombe Fair a chestnut by the thoroughbred Turton Fair. Shepley Sundancer's mother was palomino mare called Sunshine which allbreeds seem to say may have been by Shepley Sunstream but I'm not sure about this.
Cromer Cornetta's dam was a palomino called Cromer Caress by a chestnut part bred arab called Cromer Cabaret whose grey pure arab sire Rachid ended up as one of Yasmin Smart's circus horses. Caberet's dam was a palomino mare called Cromer Carousel who was a palomino part bred out of the pure arab Rajeen by a cremello Silver Moonlight whose sire was Ochre Golden Tan (by Mr Sun Tan) out of Roundhills Golden Finale whose lines go back again to the thoroughbred Turton Fair.
Cromer Caress was out of a cremello part bred arab Cromer Cascade who was by a palomino part bred arab called Cromer Chanderlire out of Cromer Candlelight ( a daughter of Shepley Sundancer). I was told Cromer Chadelire was by the stallion Sundowner whose breeding I now seek.
I will also be interested to hear the outcome of the Silvia Vl search mentioned in another thread.
If you haven't all gone to sleep with boredom I would like to say a big thank you and will view with great interest anyones recollections etc of any of the horses I have mentioned.
Got a bit of a busy weekend ahead so may not catch up for a while.
Chris
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 12:08:49 PM
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| I remember Widdicombe Fair. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 14 Sep 2007 12:12:43 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 4:38:25 PM
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Reply to Rozy Rider.
Pony Stallion Guide Season 1971
p.76 Riding Pony Section
Solway North Wind, Owner; Mrs E. Grant-Parkes, Twylands, Grange Hill, Halesowen, Worcs.
No breeding details.
There is also a Solway Speedwell in the same section, Owner; Mr & Mrs I. Rock, Lincoln Imp Pony Stud, 69 Mill Lane, Saxilby, Lincs.
No breeding details there either.
Solway North Wind is on allbreed with photo he is full brother to Solway South Wind. |
Edited by - Melynda on 14 Sep 2007 4:39:21 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 8:32:42 PM
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Thanks very much, bred my first filly by Solway North Wind and had her for 29 years.
Can't find anything for 'Cromer' in any of my old books, what sort of year are you talking about..
and I think the Sundowner should just be that name...
and we need more pictures to complete the allbreeds...sort them out and post them here.. |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 15 Sep 2007 12:08:46 AM |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 09:25:25 AM
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| I met all 4 of H Pannell's stallions. Although they were all different. Each one was lovely. I particularly liked Faro and Taravao. A friend of mine had a foal by Taravao out of Mikeno mare and it was lovely. I do not know where it is now. |
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sarahlock
Platinum Member
England
1535 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 11:40:22 AM
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Hi Sue ,
Mrs Latchford has the Cromer stud, think its in Stevenage , she has been breeding Palomino`s for years ! |
     
Brixham (South Devon ) |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 9:43:09 PM
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| Chris, How did you find out about the breeding for Shepley Sundancer, I thought Widdicomd Fair was TB, is Sundancer PBA, so where does that come from ??? Sue |
Sue
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2007 : 9:13:47 PM
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Sue,
the breeding information that I posted about Shepley Sundancer was given to me by Mrs Joan Latchford who was behind the Cromer stud and the breeder of my foal's dam Cromer Cornetta.
Joan was extremely helpful and gave me lots of information from a 'little black book' that she has all her horses details recorded in.
I was very keen to find out about Shepley Sundancer as she appeared twice in the information the foal's breeder had given me in relation to Cromer Cornetta.
Joan told me she had bought Shepley Sundancer from the Shepley stud I think she said as a two year old.
Joan gave me the name of Sundowner as the palomino sire of her Cromer Chandelire who she told me was out of a mare Cromer Candlelight who was out of Shepley Sundancer.
By this stage in my conversation I was being inundated with information and scribbling down everything as fast as possible and felt I had taken enough of her time.
Later on when I got my act together and looked up a few things on allbreeds I realised how particularly interesting this Sundowner's breeding was to me and so rather than harass Joan further I thought I'd ask the question about Sundowner on this forum.
Regarding dates for Sundowner nobody has actually given me any dates but I tend to think late 1960's early 1970's but I'm not sure.
I was only told that Widdicombe Fair was a chestnut half TB by Turton Fair I don't recall Joan saying any more about him although I think she said he had a lot of show ring success and she had no recollection of the breeding of Shepley Sundancer's dam Sunshine although she thought the Shepley stud would know.
Got to disappear now for the mo. thanks for your interest in this
Chris |
Edited by - Info Sponge on 13 Nov 2007 8:55:10 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 12:10:28 AM
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Chris, A bit nearer, Sunshine appears in the Part Bred Arab Register Vol. VI, and this is the breeding listed (see link). Your Sundowner( also on allbreeds as Kinmberley Sundowner, but, Mrs Mundy only ever recorded Sundowner & as entered on the Part bred Register. Sundowner sired several horses and the list is growing.. Sue
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/shepley+sundancer |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 17 Sep 2007 12:22:19 AM |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 07:31:19 AM
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| My friend actually had two mares by Taravao. Shamnar Silver Sari out of a Darjeel mare (Jacinda Sybeyel) and Shamnar Silver Saatyn out of a Mikeno mare (The Lady Katerine). She still has Saatyn but she is on loan to another friend of mine and is lovely with a fantastic temperament. |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2007 : 8:55:18 PM
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This is becoming quite interesting!
I'm not confident about your Sunshine in relation to Shepley Sundancer!
When I look at the other breeding of my foal this seems out of place as its all either Arab or TB and I'd like to know why the Sunshine by Shepley Sunstream has been written off.
Joan Latchford who owned Shepley Sundancer told me that the Sunshine involved here was a palomino but she couldn't recall the breeding but the Shepley stud would know. Surely having Shepley Sunstream in the breeding makes this Sunshine a more likely candidate and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the 1958 one a cremello?
Very impressed with you though Sue, I know we are going to get the answers to Sunshine & Sundowner soon.
Thanks again to everyone
Chris |
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sarahlock
Platinum Member
England
1535 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 10:07:06 AM
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Had a late night last night looking through VERY OLD Palomino mags 
In the spring 1977 i found an Article that Mrs Latchford had done all about the Cromer stud !
In 1968 they heard that Mr & Mrs Collings had a 2 yr old home bred filly for sale Shepley Sundancer
by Widdicombe fair (chestnut ) out of Sunshine ( cr)...so she was a Cremello after all !
I also found out that the stallion Palais De Danse (in my mares pedigree) was by Dancing Gold who was champion at the 1st National Palomino Show in 1960 !
This is becoming addictive ! ha ha
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Brixham (South Devon ) |
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Info Sponge
Bronze Member
England
182 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2007 : 6:51:19 PM
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This is really going above and beyond the call of duty Sarah burning the midnight oil in such a way! Thank god I've not got any old magazines - I need my beauty sleep! So pleased you found some lovely info for yourself as well.
Thanks also to Melynda for her info., Barabia, Sue,Jackie K & pat ww.
I've just joined the Palomino Society so at least I'll have the up to date info. from now on.
Best wishes to all,
Chris |
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