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as829
New Member
6 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 4:23:02 PM
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My mother and I just bought this stallion El Rashiid MA. We were told, after we bought him, that his bloodlines are very good. I have no idea if they are or not. I was wondering if anyone could tell me what bloodlines would be a good cross for him. I was told that Ansata is one possible cross, but I was wondering about others.
Here is his pedigree. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/el+rashiid+ma
Thank you for any information that you can give me. 
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Meet your opportunity ... El Rashiid MA [El Majiid x Maar-Riana] |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 10:42:27 PM
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Hi,
Apologies for my not replying to your earlier thread, I ended up working late last night and was too tired when I got home
Your boy's sire El Majiid who passed away in 2003, was a very pretty and refined horse, though he was quite small. Amongst others he sired the former British National Champion Nile Bequest out of an Ansata bred mare. El Majiid was a very sweet horse who tended to pass on his temperament to his offspring, I have a daughter of his who is very gentle and people friendly (more like a big dog than a horse). This temperament is about the only thing that the old Ansata blood from Ansata Ibn Halima is dominant for.
Your boy is what is termed "pure in the strain" kuhailan jellaby as both his sire and dam trace in tail female line to the mare Maaroufa imported into the USA by Henry Babson in 1932. The best known mare of this line being RDM Maar Hala (El Hilal X Maar Jumaana(Disaan X Maar Ree))
EL Rashiid MA's dam was by El Mareekh, bred at the EAO he was a spectacular (in motion) very dark brown horse who died at an early age through (I think) blister beetle contaminated hay Perhaps his most beautiful son being the grey MFA Mareekh Amir who was also a great grandson of Maar Ree Ibn El Mareekh a bay out of Bint Deena has perhaps been his most successful son at stud.
Personally I wouldn't go down the Ansata bred mare route with your boy as this breeding rarely "works" when the offspring are bay, and your boy is a bay and so is likely to produce some bays
A more successful cross would I think be saklawi mares that are tail male to *Morafic, this would I think bring out the spectacular from your boy's dam-line whilst retaining the best from his sire in terms of temperament etc This would I think work in any colour
Another good cross would I think be daughters/grand daughters of *Nagid again bred by the EAO and again a good moving horse, though this blood may be hard to find
A third option would be to go for the Sameh sire line, that is descendants of Makhsous, *Sakr, Asadd and so on, though for your boy I would avoid *Ibn Hafiza
Other stallions that I would avoid in the mares pedigree would be *Tuhotmos and Gharib, in case the resulting offspring ended up being too long in the back
I hope that this helps a little
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on 08 Aug 2007 10:44:07 PM |
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as829
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 4:03:42 PM
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Hi,
Please don't apologize. The information you just provided is outstanding.
You are definately right about the temperament. I have never met a sweeter, more gentle stallion. I was so surprised!! I always thought that stallions, especially arabians, were full of blow and snort. He can be at times, but as a general rule he isn't.
I have one question though. I don't understand what you mean by the Ansata breeding not "working" because of him being bay.
I will definatly take your suggestions about breeding. I see long hours pouring over pedigrees in my future.
Thank you again!!!! |
Meet your opportunity ... El Rashiid MA [El Majiid x Maar-Riana] |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 7:44:30 PM
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Hi,
Good question Due to the nature of the Ansata breeding program the horses, which are very inbred (even by SE standards) they have an unusually high number of crosses to Kazmeen. Kazmeen was a brown/dark bay horse & if the foal should be born this colour then his influence usually dominates and also serves to accentuate the faults one sometimes gets from heavily dahman influenced pedigrees With foals of any colour other than bay, the Kazmeen influence usually stays more or less in the background, though one can still see it if one looks closely
Mike |
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as829
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 5:32:11 PM
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Mike,
I understand now about the bay not working. Thanks for all of your help.
Alison |
Meet your opportunity ... El Rashiid MA [El Majiid x Maar-Riana] |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 3:43:24 PM
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Hi Alison,
No problem at all! If you have any other queries, please feel free to ask
Mike |
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alix liddle
Silver Member
England
421 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2007 : 10:00:39 PM
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Hi Mike
'Scuse my ignorance but does SE mean straight egyptians and in what way are they inbred, i.e does this lead to any specific problems? Thanks
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 5:14:28 PM
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Hi,
Apologies for my delay in replying!
SE is an abbreviation for "Straight Egyptian" as defined by the Pyramid Society in the USA. Technically a horse can be described as being "inbred" if its Wrights Co-efficient of inbreeding is 0.4% or greater, most arabians with what one might call "open pedigrees" fall below this figure. For straight egyptians a co-efficient of less than 10% is these days unusually low They are therefore more inbred than the "norm" by a factor of ten or more. The reasons for this are complex, and there are and have been many factors involved, however one of the main differences between Egyptian breeders and say Russian or Polish breeders is that whereas Polish and Russian breeders generally followed the practices of the relevant State Stud Farms, Egyptian breeders, particularly in the USA believed that they knew better than the breeders in Egypt and very quickly began doubling, trebling, etc certain "desirable" lines, this in an era where any foal by well known stallion instantly had a price tag of $50,000 - $100,000 the moment it was born regardless of quality. Horses were advertised as being bought and sold for ridiculous prices though it is doubtful if any money actually changed hands when both parties were established breeders. This was also the era when arty "horse stood in a bush" stud ads and videos where you never get to see the whole horse became standard fare.
The tendency for SE breeders in the UK and elsewhere has been to blindly follow accepted US "best practice" for better or worse
Contrast this with the fact that in the UK almost 50 years elapsed between the birth of Skowronek's first foal and the birth of the first double Skowronek foal.
Inbreeding generally brings predictability to breeding decisions, but this is a double edged sword, the bad gets passed on just as reliably as the good, especially when breeding decisions are based on glossy photo's, slo-mo videos of bits of horses and the now current practice of promoting ones own horses under the guise of providing education and enlightenment. Such material can be very useful indeed, providing one remembers that its main purpose is to sell horses
Mike
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 8:10:15 PM
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Sorry to butt in but i have learnt tons from this thread!
Mike, i have also noticed that alot of the videos show only parts of the horse. I am only just learning about all this stuff and find it difficult to identify a good arab as some of the well known breeding stallions who are successful in the showring seem to have very long backs. Also some of them dont seem to have the things arabs are well known for eg 'strong legs, short coupled, small ears ect but are very successful. In your opinion what are the most important things to look for in a good arab?
Also, are they wearing fake hair pieces in the videos
Michelle
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2007 : 9:49:23 PM
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Hi Michelle,
The hair isn't fake I had a mare Wassila who had two feet plus of tail on the floor at the end of every summer At the start of the winter I would cut it off to her hocks for obvious reasons All that hair of course isn't very practical for riding though
The best method of determining if a horse genuinely has a long back is to mentally split it into 3, that is take the front end from the end of the withers forward and the hindquarters from the stifle back, the bit in the middle should be roughly the same length as the two end pieces, if its longer then the horse has a long back. Arabian horses don't as a rule have long necks compared to other breeds, they have average to short necks. The only way a horse can have a longer neck since one can't add in extra vertebrae is for the vertebrae themselves to be longer, this means that not only will the neck be longer but the back will be too Given the current obsession with heads and necks, this may be what you are seeing.
My own personal view of breeding is that if you worry and take care of the important stuff, the "pretty" will look after its self, this may run counter to popular opinion but the breeders of yesteryear didn't breed for pretty heads and "hooky necks"
Mike |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2007 : 2:15:02 PM
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Ahh so breeding for long necks can lead to long backs! What is going on internally in the neck when a horse has a hooky neck? Like you said you cant add more vertebrae so how do they achieve it?
So is it only the straight egyptians that are breed to have 'hooky necks' or does it happen with other types too?
Michelle |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2007 : 09:46:05 AM
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| Mike, it was lovely to read your comment re :pretty as George White many years ago told me to get body,legs etc correct and then put on the head. How right he was. What use is a pretty head on its own. |
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alix liddle
Silver Member
England
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2007 : 3:38:56 PM
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| Thanks Mike, for the info. Just off for a quick look to see how inbred my horse might be. |
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alix liddle
Silver Member
England
421 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2007 : 10:27:35 PM
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Hi me again.
My bay (at the moment) horse is growing lots of white hairs. I've entered her pedigree on allbreed pedigree website and noticed that lots of ancestors are bay and grey. Are there any rules for colour change and is there a certain age that they start to change? She's just five years old. Thanks |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 4:35:35 PM
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Hi Alex, i was wondering the same thing. My chestnut yearling has got loads of white hairs and same as you lots of his ancestors are grey.
We will have to wait for Mike to come back
Michelle |
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alix liddle
Silver Member
England
421 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 8:53:07 PM
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Hi Ghaleem
There's another thread somewhere with photographs of a bay gradually turning grey. Can't remember the topic!! |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 10:11:26 PM
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Sorry Alix, i called you Alex earlier
Yes i saw it - some amazing colour changes in those horses!
Michelle |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 3:17:47 PM
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Foals are born the colour they would have been if they didn't have the "greying" gene. A foal will be born chestnut, bay etc and will start to grey any time from a few weeks old until a few years. Some are born with grey "spectacles" i.e. grey rings round their eyes, so they are obviously going to be grey and other are difficult to tell unless you look very closely. Sadly I have never mastered the art of putting photos on here or I could show you some photos of my "grey" foals who were chestnut or bay and then photos later when they had turned grey. My stallion was a chestnut baby, by six months he was pink where the faded chestnut hairs and white mingled and by three he was snow white. I have another grey who was born liver chestnut and at three she is still a dark grey/brown colour with a paler slash on her neck at her jawline.
Ghaleem, your chestnut may be a chestnut with roaning or she may actually be a grey, you need to get someone who knows what they are looking at to tell you which she is. Her breeder should have known unless she was very novice so her papers should tell you although occasionally they are wrong.
I have a bay fillywith two grey parents, four grey grandparents and eight grey greatgrand parents. The famous Hanan, a bay, is in the next generation and it appears that it is she who passed on the colour. Grey is dominant so if either parent passes on a grey gene the foal will be grey but the other parent can pass on a "coloured" gene. The only colour certainty in breeding arabs is that two chestnuts will produce a chestnut.
Barbara |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 4:42:57 PM
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Hi,
Classically chestnuts are often born with "pink spectacles" which disappear after a short time once the hair has grown around the eyes. SE chestnuts often have some degree of roaning, particularly if they are direct descendants of or have multiple crosses to Moniet El Nefous. She and her chestnut daughters all had a fair bit of roaning and small white markings. Though they looked completely chestnut from a distance. The most extremely roaned close relative of Moniet El Nefous that I can think of at the moment was her grand daughter Moneera (Alaa El Din X Mouna)shown below.
Moneera (both her parents were chestnut)
A sabino chestnut (not SE) by a bay out of a chestnut
Mike |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 5:12:43 PM
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Some chestnuts have "snowflakes", not sure of the posh name for them. I was told that it came from Hanif in my mare's pedigree but not sure. I haven't heard of a bay with snowflakes but there may be some.
Barbara |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
1059 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 5:50:42 PM
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'Birdcatcher Spots' maybe, Barbara?
My Crabbet/OE stallion had them in his older days. The spots come and go, some year only a few.. next year none or many!
I've heard that Mesaoud was the 'guilty' one for those spots, my boy has 28 crosses to Mesaoud and Hanif has 36 crosses!
Bia
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2007 : 9:53:49 PM
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Babara, think your right he's roan rather than going grey
Mike, spot on My colt is related to Morafic (Moniet El Nefous) so i guess your right and he will be roan
Michelle
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