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Donna Irons
Bronze Member
New Zealand
154 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 09:48:40 AM
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Does anybody have any opinions on ' Rollkur'I have just put it into google and the images I saw sickened me, do people ride like this ? what are the benefits, because I just can't see it !!! what do you all think ? if you are not familliar with it google it !!
Donna
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 09:54:09 AM
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| I too had to google it recently because I didn't know about it and was disgusted. This just shows how far competitive dressage has diverged from classical riding, and why I would no longer compete in dressage at any level because of the abuse that goes on at the top. |
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Big Mover
Gold Member
United Kingdom
999 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 10:15:47 AM
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I have just had a look, its a wonder that the poor horses neck isnt broken or severley damaged for life riding like that!!!!!!!!! I suppose ROLLKUR is a fancy word for been overbent. Horrible, those poor horses  
Sarah |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 10:17:28 AM
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there was a massive debate about this in H & H last year, i think quite a few people in the dressage 'world' were concerned about it in the end , i have to dig out out the article as i think that under vetinary scrutiny it was deemed 'safe' to use ..iv'e not seen it in action so i cant say,but it does sound extreme
do people really have to go to these lengths to get the perfect outline and collection. |
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baxter
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 10:34:31 AM
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Ok, don't shoot me....
I am "on the fence" with Rolkur, having read lots of articles by Anky, and watching her horses perform and her ride, and i have many a debate, with others on this practice...
Overbending occurs with lots of horses quite naturally, think of training young horses, think of excited horses, etc etc, would they possibly put themselves through this horrendous amount of pain (as described on a lot of the sites) by themselves??
My very green horse overbends like this whilst trying to figure out where his "outline" should be, my anglo arab, overbends like this on a canter path out on a hack or whilst excited, and maintains this position.... Why would they do this if not naturally and physically possible for them to achieve this outline? Who uses side reins/draw reins? Is this not natural either? Are these horses not in pain too? Is "outline" itself not painful? And does overbending make the back round more creating a stronger back on which to carry us? People whose horses have ewe necks and strong underside muscles and don't carry themselves in an outline are these in pain? Is this wrong? What is right? The list goes on.... Riding itself has been considered "cruel" on some forums, is riding natural? So many questions and so many practices out there, i think it's sometimes difficult to know what is right and what is wrong, look at the whole training of arabians and you open up a can of worms, dressage the same, showjumping, and the extreme bending and flexing of necks side to side, used by all 0of the great whittakers, is this not cruel? natural? Who knows......
Anyway that's my two pence worth, for anyone who cares... hence why i sit reservedly on the fence.... |
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BOULTONS
Silver Member
United Kingdom
380 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 10:40:18 AM
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| The present day dressage "style" has depressed me for years now, when I look at photos in H & H. My Pony Club instructor (so we are talking 40 years ago here!), Marie Stokes, would stress to us that it was far easier to correct a horse that was above the bit than one that is behind it. Horses that bent from behind the poll were described as "broken necked" and horses had to work from behind, not the forehand. Some present day dressage riders ride so long that they seem to be sitting on the horse rather than into it. Must stop raging as would like to post this below "Sazzlepants" message where there are lovely photos of a rider sitting into the horse, horses correctly bent and working from behind (IMO) |
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Wurzel
Bronze Member
Germany
68 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 11:34:41 AM
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There was a lot of discussion on various dressage sides regarding Rolkur and classical riders are against this.
The horse does not go overbent, it's head is pulled in by the rider and is normally accompanied by a fighting open mouth. This gives the apperance that the horse is round, when in fact it's back end is not working correctly at all.
Yes I do personally think it causes pain, these riders ride the horses like this for considerable lengths of time. Having broken my collar bone, I had to have my arm bent against my body for six weeks, after just a couple of hours my elbow was extremly painful.
I have never used draw or side reins on my horses. Someone said to me recently 'it's alright for you your horse goes perfectly'. To which I replied, 'yes he is 19, as a four year old he used to swing his head round in a circle at canter.' My instructor used to shout ignore him, just ride forwards. She always said leave the head alone, when he is working correctly from the back end the head will come in the correct postion.
There will always be methods that are a faster, so that prizes can be won, I would rather take my time and have a sound horse that can be
ridden for mainy years. |
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lovehorses
Silver Member
England
390 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 11:53:39 AM
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She always said leave the head alone, when he is working correctly from the back end the head will come in the correct postion.
We must have had the same instructor! Strangely enough this is the ONLY method I've looked at that CONSISTENTLY gives results! (Unfortunately, not always quickly!!!) |
Trudi x
trudi.pelham@googlemail.com
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 12:10:43 PM
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That is the problem lovehorses, everyone is looking for a quick result, so that they can go and start winning. So I would say that the professionals are looking for a speedy cure for horses who are overbent/behind the bit/in front of the bit, whatever. They (unfortunately for the horses) are under pressure from the owners to make a horse go "correctly" in a very short space of time and start winning immediately.
I have been taught, and always lived by the understanding that horses need to go forward into an outline, they also need to find their own balance and not be forced into it, so you should sit and think forward all of the time. A good outline will come when the horse is ready.
The thing is these "forced" horses are kidding no-one, it looks false and unnatural.
Carla, xx. |
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baxter
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 12:18:10 PM
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I don't know enough about this topic to comment fully, and have voiced my opinions above, hence me sitting on the fence, but i do think some people may be missing the point a little with regards to Rolkur, this practice is used in "training" and to warm up, you would not see the dressage professionals ride their tests in this flexion.... with regards to outline and working from behind, yes i agree with you all....poll should be vertical, outline natural, back working up and over from hind legs, all of which you'll usually see with most dressage riders, this practice is not used to ride a test, it is a practice of "training"
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katherineepea
Gold Member
England
883 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 12:23:44 PM
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I think its horribly unnatural and although anky is obviously a talented dressage rider, i think that what her horses are made to do is unnatural and wrong and far too extreme.
a lot of horses to tend to come behind the bit if they are green, or as a form of evasion, but to purposefully ride a horse that way all the time is just wrong.
the results are impressive, but if a horse is capable of being built up that way from ridden work using the rolkur method, then it can also be built up using kinder methods such as a regular outline, long lining, and lunging
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beau
Gold Member
United Kingdom
806 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 12:39:15 PM
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| In the piccies i have seen of this each horse looks to be uncomfortable + fighting it, therefore i feel it unnecessary to take an 'outline' to the extreme, what is the point to it? IMHO i agree with others that it appears unnatural. |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 12:48:19 PM
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THANKYOU  boultons for your compliments! also , yes it did take longer to get them to work correctly but its worth the wait!
baxter i am curious what is the 'training' with the rollkur meant to correct.
i cant remember form the article now why or what they were trying to achieve |
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baxter
Gold Member
England
1123 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 1:01:17 PM
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I'm not a practicing Rolkur person, nor a "fan" but i don't deem to not agree with something i don't know enough about straight away, i'm open to all ideas with horses, it's such a minefield out there, and we all have our own methods.
Rolkur as far and as much as i have read, stretches the muscles of the neck to build them up, hence these huge necks we have on dressage warmbloods etc....the flexion at the poll stretches the muscles.... and helps these riders achieve their true outline and strong necks in their tests...it's this hyeprflexion that is said to make them lighter on theirforehand, and so on... obviously i'm sure there is much more to this practice that i do not know of... |
Edited by - baxter on 04 Apr 2007 1:07:59 PM |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 1:16:38 PM
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Not sure if it's the same Rollkur article I saw after Googling it but it really can't be right to ride a horse with its chin touching the underside of its neck!
The writer ends that article saying it's done not to achieve perfection, but to achieve perfect marks... A not-too-subtle difference!
I do think we do all sorts of things that are very unnatural to horses for our own pleasure; riding them is the most fundamental, so it's a question of what's acceptable to us, and what isn't.
As far as Anky's concerned, she's a good enough rider to get her horses performing brilliantly without resorting to these methods! If it's a 'short cut' it's shameful. |
Roseanne |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
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Lanabanana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2691 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 4:44:55 PM
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Rollkur was mentioned briefly only a day or two ago in a thread on the 'tea and coffee' forum.
Sorry, but I too think it's horrific! The fact that it's used only in training and practise doesn't make it right!
Recently there was a lot of comment about the way our in-hand horses are taught the hard stand up, so does the fact that most of the cruel practises to achieve this pose go on outside the ring make that ok too?
I was shocked when I first saw the photos and videos of 'Rollkur' in action. Horses with their chins touching their chests, mouths wide open and eyes straining to see where they're going, hideous
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Hampshire. |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 5:23:55 PM
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| Writer is a dreadful old misogynist though, which makes the other views quite unbalanced. |
   
West Sussex |
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 5:43:35 PM
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There are a number of videos on YouTube.
I recently posted a thread on the tea and coffee forum called Poetry in Motion. A rider and his horse working in perfect harmony, I have also posted a link a video of Anky, who won the competition who's horse although technicly brilliant was not nearly as lovely to watch as the other.
I have worked horses deep and low which is whole different ballgame to Rollkur.
I hate seeing showjumpers working their horses in with their chin (the horse's) first on one shoulder and them on the other, repeatedly.
Vera and Dennis |
    
Hampshire |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 7:02:15 PM
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Deep and low is good before and at the end of a schooling session to let the horse stretch and wind down. Rollkur is a different thing entirely.
Notice that on a lot of the articles, they blot out the identity of the rider. It's as if there is a tacit admission it could be considered cruel.
I quite agree with Lanabanana, it's the parallel to the 'frozen pose', unnecessary and bordering on cruel. |
Roseanne |
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Nuttybabez
Gold Member
England
522 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2007 : 10:44:19 PM
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This is terrible, how is this condoned?
Can't be beneficial to the horse to be held in this or any position and looks very uncomfortable. A horse should work in the correct outline of his own willingness and schooling - not with force. |
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Zareeba
Bronze Member
62 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2007 : 9:00:40 PM
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| Theresa Sandin has an extremely good article about Rollkur on her Sustainable Dressage blog site. She explains Rollkur (how and why not) with great clarity and (speaking as someone who has done a lot of research on this and related subjects) I can confirm that she knows what she is talking about. She explains why Rollkur gets results - and at what cost. Have a look at the firat article on Rollkur on her site http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php - you need to scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the links there for the next articles on the subject. I'd recommend this to anyone who's curious about Rollkur. |
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Renee
Gold Member
539 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 12:04:09 AM
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I went to the national dressage championships a few years ago and it was horrible, lots of hard-faced, hard-handed (mostly women) on horses that were far too big and highly strung for them. And wearing too much makeup (the women, not the horses!) There were a few really lovely riders, mostly men I have to say. It's enough to put you off (competitive) dressage for life. I do have some dressage videos and watching Anky & Bonfire seems a different thing altogether, brings a lump to my throat every time.
Renee |
      
Jeago (Ludomino x Bahia) 1973-2007 & Khylie* (Nazdrowie x Kaminah) 1990-2010 ~ Fouad el Khyl (Lothar el Nyhl x Khylie) 2005- |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 2:46:41 PM
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| I think Anky uses Rollkur; I saw an article where she was defending herself in H & H (I think..) |
Roseanne |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2007 : 3:01:51 PM
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Yes Anky does use Rollkur and has openly demonstrated how she achieves this and how it's used in her training of her horses.
Do you think that (as it appears mostly used by women) it is a tool they have devleoped to ride these huge big moving WBs?
I've never understood why little 5ft waifs ride 17h dinosaurs in the first place (sorry about my choice of words, I don't mean to offent anyone)... it just seems to me that if they chose horses more suitable to their size and weight they wouldn't have to use such drastic training techniques?
I had a dressage lesson on a huge WB a few weeks ago - he was lovely to ride and very obidient but his movement was soo huge that if he decided to go I wouldn't have a chance! |
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