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sapphire blue
Silver Member
 England
440 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 1:18:28 PM
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I was wondering as well further to my other post what people think about keeping a colt entire for the future, I always wished I could have had a foal from my gelding obviously before gelding! So would like to keep Avalon entire if possible any tips or comments are most welcome
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Regards, Sapphire
   
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:46:48 PM
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I expect most answers will be dont do it! Many stallions lead sad and lonely lives, unless you have somewhere of your own to keep him where he can run out with your gelding and have normal horsey socialisation you are not being fair to him just to have a one off baby in the future.
They can also be challenging, and unless you have enough experience to know when to discipline them and when to let things go you could spoil his temperament. Most responsible large studs geld thier foals, keeping only the best stallion prospects entire with a show future planned.
We had our stallion from when he was 2 till he was 15. Had he ever been a problem or suffered a lonely life he would have been gelded. Many of his contempories on the show circuit ended up as older geldings, the demand is not there for every Arab colt to keep his plums.
Only if you are sure he will have a happy life and be worthy of siring the next generation should you consider this as a serious course of action. |
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sapphire blue
Silver Member
England
440 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 3:38:49 PM
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| I think that he would be a very good future stallion and has a good pedigree and is a lovely chap. He would be able to have a field to himself with my gelding as his field mate. I also have a lot of support who are very in the know about this area, I just wondered what people thought on the topic on here really. I would NEVER subject ANY animal to a life of misery or lonliness for my selfish wants but I don't feel he would be given that type of life he would live as his dad does now and the breeder would like to use him herself perhaps in future. |
Regards, Sapphire
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s.jade
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2401 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 5:16:31 PM
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We're currently looking into collecting from our colt, so then the option is there to geld him. With so many "name" stallions about, I don't personally reckon there will be much chance of him being used on outside mares - there's not enough interest. I'd like him to go out and perform, we aim to try affiliated dressage, some showjumping and ultimately event him, as well as show under saddle.
I would however like to use him on one or two of my own mares each year, if he does prove himself uner saddle so I think AI would be best for everyone, he can lead a happy, sociable life and I can still have his babies  |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 5:39:43 PM
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Think long and hard before you decide to keep him entire, can you offer him a home for life? if you keep him entire and curcumstances change what will be his future? I had a stallion for many years who lived a lovely life, but when he left me for a so called better life as a ridden horse, that owner decided she didnt want him after one year, so sold him to another person who then had to geld him , by this time he was about 11years old, he died within a couple of months of being gelded that stallion was Bambooki! he had been a good producer , a top champion stallion and a wonderful natured chap that had his own fan club I regreted selling him on after but thought he would have a better life as a ridden horse
The work involved in keeping a stallion will not outway having the odd foal from him. and I should think less than 10% of all colts born will go on to make the grade as a top sire. Think how many are born every year and then 6 years down the line how many are still going as useful sires? |
   
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Judi
Silver Member
England
494 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 5:51:33 PM
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I think people set out with the best intentions of keeping colts entire, but life has a funny way of taking over. No one can actually promise a home for life as things can, and do, happen along the way sometimes that we have no control over.
I own a 17 year old stallion (very happy on perm loan with SJade :) who has had more homes than I care to mention. Knowing how he has gone from pillar to post has put me off ever keeping a stallion or colt again. It was very difficult to have to part with him as they are a huge responsibility, but luckily I found someone who has not only the right facilities, but can give the same love and attention I did (thank you Sam and Jill)!!
Whilst I find I bond more with stallions, they are a huge responsibility and it certainly isn't something to be taken lightly (not saying you are). There is so much to think about all of the time that you have to be very proactive in how they are kept.
All food for thought. Sorry to be so down about it all, but you need to see all sides of the coin before making your mind up. Anyway, I wish you luck in reaching your decision, you obviously care a great deal and are thinking it all over. |
Judi
judirhodes1@yahoo.co.uk |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 7:08:26 PM
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| I'm afraid I geld all my colts unless a. I want to retain him myself (although that hasnt happened so far) or b. a prospective buyer has asked to keep him entire, even then I sit down and discuss the downfalls of keeping a stallion (even if the colt in question is of high quality). I don't know your colt but in experience a very sweet natured baby can (not always) turn into a rambunctious (sp) stallion that becomes a liability to live with. BUT in saying that, if you feel you have the facilities, don't have hundreds of prospective in season mares ajoining your property and are prepared to put the work in with him then go ahead, especially if maybe you breed your 'one off' foal from him whilst he is still very young, and then geld him maybe. But as stated above there are far too many stallions out there, good, bad (and the ugly unfortunately). |
     
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 7:18:46 PM
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I expect I'm being very dim and naive here, but why is it that here in the UK everyone gets so excited about stallions and their behaviour/socialising? The only reason I ask is cos in Muslim countries (like Egypt) they don't geld... and you see arab stallions lounging around all over the place with other stallions, mares and babies and no-one batting an eyelid, stallions included. In the past I have visited two UK studs where the stallions lived next door to each other and were perfectly amiable. At one of these places the stallion turnout paddock was next door to the mares' field and again everyone seemed quite happy with the arrangement.
At a riding school I used to go to (admittedly over 20 years ago,oh dear!) they had a little cob stallion who lived in a box in the block with the other horses, went on hacks and lessons with everyone else, and was used for breeding.
And a friend of mine, who acquired a piebald stallion as her first pony, used him for pony club (this was 40 odd years ago) and everything else and he lived with a gelding (literally: they shared a stable by choice). Granted though he was eventually gelded, for reasons I am not sure of.
Is it just that I've only ever encountered particularly laidback and socialised stallions? I have no axe to grind here, just curious.
Grey Girl |
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Kazzy
Platinum Member
England
3335 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 7:31:27 PM
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Has Pat says you have to think long and hard about keeping him entire.
I dont know your colt and I wouldnt wish to comment on him has a sire, but you have to look at the possibility of him getting mares!!
I have only ever bred 1 foal in my life, and that was for my own purpose, and I still have him and he will stay with me for life.
But a lot of people on here have made suggestions before regarding
getting outside mares for their stallions, and some of these stallions are top class show horses and produce as well. A lot
of them keep their stallions happy using their own mares, with only
1 or 2 if they are lucky outside mares. What would your colt be like
when he is a testosterone fully fledged stallion Unfortunately
you cant predict that, what will his behaviour be like when he's not
doing the biz.
My advice for what its worth is to keep him entire for a while longer, because you have facilties for him to go out and graze and live a happy "horse" life and see how you go on with him, and see how
he matures, because if you chop them off now you cant put them back on.
Janet
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 8:03:48 PM
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Grey Girl
I do agree that a lot of people get 'excited' about stallions, this is usually because the stallions in question are NOT socialised and are NOT being handled/trained in the best way. I have met many, many stallions in this country (including my own boys) that are happy, carefree, well socialised boys, but I have also met what can only be described as complete psycho's, maybe through handling but a lot to do with their temperament. These horses I feel should never be in the breeding shed at all, temperament passes on as well as pretty heads and table top croups lol!!
I know in some foreign countries (not just with arabians) colts are never gelded, but the point you miss is that the bad tempered or difficult colts usually don't get to live to be stallions!! |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 9:04:41 PM
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You all go on about keeping a GOOD colt entire or geld them.
My own boy had to be gelded (the reasons why I will not go into)He is the sweatest lad of very good bred lines etc.
Every time I think about him as a stallion makes me feel very sad.If things had been fine I would never ever had him gelded.
He is an endurance horse and would have bought class to the sport.
In the past I have had 2 stallions who have live peacefully within the herd.
If a stallion has a purpuse in life they are fine, it is those that are left on their own not being allowed to socialise.
Would you consider removing the overies of a mare just because you do not want to bred from her "NO" but they are as much an entire as a stallion is and sometimes more trouble to.
Sapphire if you are able to cope and your boy is happy leave him alone.
Pauline
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Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 9:21:16 PM
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Saphire, I have been through the loop of having stallions at home to cover my mares many times before, then I decide not to have a stallion at home, and find my life is missing something!!....like holidays or day's out on long drawn out shopping trips, going to shows if I have to stay away, always make sure you take the stallion with you on these, you sleep better! Checking your fencing is solid and bomb proof, investing in good fencing, investing in a third party insurance in the event your stallion gets out and hurts someone.......all this without the thoughts of do I have enough of my own mares to keep him happy? as we all know you won't get many mares.
So, I'm back to owning a potential stallion again. Now my mares can stay at home, not get unjured while away visiting other stallions, I can sleep at night knowing they are safe.
I house my colt next to a gelding, they are totally in lovethe colt goes out all day next to my mares, good fencing mind. I may well put the colt and gelding out together after the show season
So, do what is right for you. If you think you can give him a good and interesting life, then keep him entire, but don't fall into the trap of not being able to cope with him once the 'gonads' have been awakenedonce you are afraid of him, then that is the time to call in the vet |
Edited by - SueB on 05 Jul 2006 9:42:26 PM |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
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Anne C
Gold Member
United Kingdom
886 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 9:37:56 PM
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I can see both sides of the coin on this subject. My stallion is 11 years old, we have had him from a foal and has never really been any trouble. He lives on a mixed yard, stabled with mares, colts and geldings. Ok he pulls faces occasionally but that's about his limit. He is turned out every day all day and he is ridden regularly. Although he doesn't cover many mares, he is a happy boy. If I'm honest, I enjoy the bond I have with my stallion but if I thought he was unhappy I would have him gelded. What would worry me is that what happended to the stallion Lynda sold who was gelded would happen to my boy.
On the other side of the coin, I had my two year old colt (fantastic breeding!) gelded a couple of months ago because I don't want to breed anymore foals.I don't think there would be any mares out there for him and I don't want him to be unhappy. Also, what if I couldn't keep him, although I would do my best to find him a good home, I know from personal experience that, with the best will in the world, people don't always mean what they say!!!
Sorry for rambling on but I feel very strongly about the welfare of stallions. If your boy is happy and you can manage him, leave him be. As in a previous post, you can't put them back on again!! The friendship of a stallion can be very rewarding.
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 9:57:27 PM
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The bond you can build up to with your Arab beit a mare a stallion or a gelding is wonderful.
Last Saturday my friend had an accident She came off her stallion and broke her shoulder. Her stallion walked slowly in front of her guiding her to safety.The bond she has with both her stallions is great.
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
Edited by - Pauline on 05 Jul 2006 10:14:20 PM |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 10:01:03 PM
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Last Autumn I bought Rameed - then 17 - stallion - hes lived all his life on his own - away from other horses except when covering! It was a total shock to him coming to live here - where there are other horses about - bless him - hes been very good about it all - but it can't have been easy for him!! I don't think we could ever turn him our right next door to other horses - even geldings - he would just run himself into the ground!!! In fact - after we moved him onto fresh grass a couple of days ago - he could spy my geldings & worked himself into a complete sweaty mess - so much so that the horse flies were eating him alive! We had to bring him into the stables in the barn - which again was a new experience for him - but hes settled OK! Until tonight when we found Rufus is a state & hes now in one of the stables - the other side of the barn to Rameed - who of course think that Rues the best ever thing on four legs hes ever, ever seen - so lots of shouting going on!!! But hes not too bad & the experience will prob be good for him!!
Taking on a stallion - esp an older one like Rameed - is not something to be taken lightly!! Thankfully - even when hes REALLY excited - hes still a gentleman to handle & be around!! |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 10:27:12 PM
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I must say that I am all for gelding colts, generally they have a much better quality of life. However, if you are sure you can keep him and manage him then if you really want to, keep him entire. I have never sold a colt entire yet as I have felt they were not of the quality to be a loss to the breed if they were gelded. I do think far too many colts are kept entire when they don't have a lot to offer in the breeding barn.
I lived and rode in Saudi Arabia and many of the stallions there would have been far happier as geldings. Also, the blazing heat tends to make them quieter plus they are not always fed and kept in conditions we over here would like our horses to be kept in.
I have a stallion I bred myself and he was a nightmare from a yearling untill he was about two and a half, often thought about having them off!!!! He paces if he is kept where he can see the mares but fortunately I have a field the other side of the road and he is happy there.
A lot to think about but if you think he is good enough and would suit your mares it is your decision and if you decide later you want him gelded then it can be done later. I had a gelding who was a stallion until he was eight and was then cut when we bought him, he stayed with his owner until he was over the op, we paid the costs. He was the most wonderful horse,so kind and gentle and like an old uncle to the foals, you would have never thought that he had been a stallion.
Barbara |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 11:31:41 AM
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At most studs, big or small, colts and stallions have to muck in with everything else. Personally, I feel this is the best way. The sooner you stable a colt next to a mare and expect him to just get on with it like any other horse the better.
I have a 3 year old and he has a corner stable next to a mare, on a small yard with 5 mares and 2 foals. He rears up and puts his head through the gaps under the eaves to try to get at her, but he knows this is wrong and if you shout at him he backs off and sulks for a few mins and then gets over it and on with it!
His field looks onto the yard where mares might be tied up or walked, the sand paddock looks onto the foaling boxes (about 2 metres away) - yes he is loud and randy, he isn't one of the quiet types who likes to have a chat with his mare for half an hour before mounting her - he is an eager, testosterone fuelled boy, but he just has to get on with it.
I think a lot of you would be very surprised what these boys get used to when they have to be part of a working yard. There will always be the odd nightmare horse who you can't do anything new with or stable near anything, but in general, most just get on with it, they have to, or else how would all of us who do keep colts and stallions ever do it??? |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 12:46:22 PM
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I agree to a certain extent, Michelle. However, sometimes it is an accident waiting to happen. My stallion is in the middle of the yard with a mare on one side and a mare and foal on the other and mares opposite. He is fine with that but that is how he grew up. It isn't always possible to do that depending on the temperament of the stallion and how he is kept during his early years.
We all have to make our own decisions as to what is best for us and our boys. Sadly too many people keep colts when they don't have the knowledge or facilities to do so with disastrous consequences for the horse. Some colts/stallions who appear to be quiet and happy stabled 24/7 have actually lost the will to live and have withdrawn into themselves; I know, I have had one and boy was he a nightmare once he got loads of turnout, just blew his mind. He did come round and is lovely now but in the wrong hands he could have been a killer purely due to his size and strength.
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 1:08:48 PM
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I'm not saying get a 10 year old stallion who has only ever been in the stallion barn and put him in the mare barn, of course that wouldn't work.
But if you have a colt and you want to keep him entire then he needs to lead the normal life that you would expect a mare or gelding to lead, from as early as possible.
Of course you need to make adjustments and be aware, you will probably need to electrify your field fences, and have an extra height door made, but on the hole, if you bring them up from a youngster well socialised, in company, with his own field, there is no reason why it shouldn't work out..... unless you have a total loon on your hands, which of course, is rare but does happen.
If you can do this, or are worried about it, then don't keep an entire at all, simple. |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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Page
New Member
25 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 2:25:11 PM
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Originally posted by s.jadeWe're currently looking into collecting from our colt, so then the option is there to geld him. With so many "name" stallions about, I don't personally reckon there will be much chance of him being used on outside mares - there's not enough interest. I'd like him to go out and perform, we aim to try affiliated dressage, some showjumping and ultimately event him, as well as show under saddle. I would however like to use him on one or two of my own mares each year, if he does prove himself uner saddle so I think AI would be best for everyone, he can lead a happy, sociable life and I can still have his babies
I think it’s a great idea to gather semen and then geld so he can have a full life, you then get the best of both worlds. I won't mention the stud but its a famous one, years ago whilst visiting I noticed one of the stallions legs were cut ot pieces, the stud owner said he gets frustrated and stressed then starts ripping his legs to bits with his own teeth. No comment!
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sapphire blue
Silver Member
England
440 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 4:51:52 PM
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| People have all made really useful comments and as someone said, I am asking to be able to think things through from all angles before deciding though I do echo the 'you can't stick them back on' comment! I have always and would always put his welfare first and I am not thinking about him as a commercial stallion that will get lots of outside mares I appreciate that it doesn't happen like that and I may geld him yet I would just like to let him grow up a little bit if possible and see how it goes, I believe that besides the excpetion you get with all things brought up right stallions are no different in many ways to others, they need friends and a life. I am very interested in your comments about AI, when you gather semen how long can it be kept for? People mention experience but how do you gather any form of experience at all in any aspect of life if you never are the one doing the thing in question is my wonder. I welcome any further comments and again wish to stress that he is my prime concern, he would be given a full life and we may yet geld it is not set in stone. I ask here as it is great to get the voice of the more experienced to help make decisions that are hard to make. |
Regards, Sapphire
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 7:00:09 PM
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Thanks Sapphire Blue,
This whole thread has been fascinating and I've enjoyed reading every comment back to you. It has been great to hear from the experienced stallion owners about the pros and cons. I bought a yearling colt two weeks ago and am considering keeping him entire. He is very quiet and soft natured (at the moment!) and lives with my gelding. He is still very much a baby in his attitude and my gelding bullies him something rotten, but the two of them are great friends under it all and I was hoping for them to be grazing pals for the rest of their days. I'm not sure if it will be practical to keep him entire once next year hits, but I'm certainly going to leave any gelding thoughts until next spring.
I am in the lucky position that I keep my horses at home. I don't have any mares here and having listened to other comments I'm now wondering whither or not there will be a call for my colts bloodlines in the future?! Mind you in Scotland there isn't quite the choice that there is in England, so short of using AI, you do have to travel a VERY long way to use your prefered stallion.
My friend has a stallion (she lives 3 miles away) and he is the most laid back character in the world. She tends to just use her own 2 mares with him, and although he doesn't compete himself now, still enjoys schooling and hacking out on a frequent basis. He is also one of the best babysitters around and looks after his own offspring when mum has had enough!!!
I personally think that you have to weigh up your own personal situation and decide from there as to what to do for the best for your colt. It's certainly what I'll be doing when the time comes.
Good luck.
Jayne |
The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears. |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 7:42:06 PM
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My stallion lived with my old gelding from when he was born and they got on fine. Then one day I got home from work to a horror movie, the gelding had nearly killed my colt. His jaw was broken and lots of teeth missing, both elbows kicked in and a back hock we thought was broken. To cut a long story short he did survive and is as beautiful as ever apart from a few wonky second teeth where the baby teeth were kicked out but he is not always sound at the front so can't be shown or ridden, very sad. However, gelding him is not really an option as what would happen to him if anything happened to me, who would have him as a gelding? He is stallion quality and is by Crusader so a super pedigree and I am sure if I needed to I could find him a good home as a stallion.
Just be careful having stallions and geldings together, I know a lot of people do but I would hate anyone else to go through what my stallion and I did. I have never trusted the gelding with a colt again, he is 29 now and still an evil old git although super with people.
Barbara |
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Anne C
Gold Member
United Kingdom
886 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 8:43:28 PM
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I have to agree with Barbara with regard to geldings and colts. I have found that stallions can be unpredicatable. They are fine 99% of the time but it's the 1% that causes the trouble. My stallion goes out either with the mares when they are in foal or on his own. This doesn't mean he is isolated in any way. Mares and geldings surround him in the fields and on the yard. He was brought up by two geldings until he was 3 when he covered his first mare. After that he tried to boss them about which wasn't an option.
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Anne |
Edited by - Anne C on 06 Jul 2006 8:45:18 PM |
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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member
Scotland
1627 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2006 : 10:54:43 PM
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Thats fair enough. I'll see how it goes when the time comes. I can always put a fence between them! Quinn is definitely the boss (short term!), but as I told him, the day is coming when his young charge will answer back!
It's all very much pie in the sky, but it's nice to have options. I also agree about the unpredictability of Stallions, but I do think it depends on their nature and the way they are kept. As previously mentioned no one mentions having mares ovaries removed if they are not being bred from and I have owned some mares in the past that would have given any stallion a run for their money, in terms of unpredictablity and temper tantrums!!
At the end of the day every horse is unpredictable and you really have to be careful with all grazing friends! A friend of mine has a gelding who is more agressive than her stallion and gives all his equine friends a dreadul life!
Thanks for the warning though. I will certainly be seriously considering the best way forward come next spring.
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