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Wyllow
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 2:31:33 PM
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At present I have occasion to be working with a horse who has a number of "issues".
He is about 9 years old but appears quite immature in many ways, mouthy with everything, like a colt and clingy with the company of others.
When he first arrived ~ very late ~ following a theoretically very short journey, which made me wonder just how easily ( and indeed just HOW) he boxed... he displayed a strong aversion to:~
a) Being led
b) Being stabled (once I'd got him that far).
c) Staying stabled ~ he literally broke into a sweat and licked and chewed constantly.
d) Hands raised more than very slowly anywhere near him.
e) Passing through a restricted area ~ even a gate can bother him.
f) Men. Having a man anywhere near makes all of the above impossible to achieve at all.
He has a very nasty scar on the front of his face and his legs have taken some "stick" if the splints and other bumps are anything to go by. I'm not saying that this was cruelty , but he was possibly worked hard early ~ the owners told me he came to them with the blemishes and certainly had his "quirks" already. Quirks....yes,they weren't kidding!
He has a habit of sucking his own tongue when any new or stressful (in his view) situation is presented to him and sweating.
For the first week, he took every opportunity to bite. (He doesn't do that now).
It took a week to get him to walk freely in and out of the stable ~ he's been doing this for the past two and a half weeks now ~ but faced with the farrier on site today, he refused to come out of the field ~ even with me. This is a farrier who is new to him, so it cannot be that particular person he has an aversion to ~ just the "man" thing and maybe even farriers in general.He could see him on the yard with his equipment and just refused to come near.
I wouldn't use force. My farrier supported this. We didn't make an issue of it and decided to reconvene when it's not raining (hah!)and see if we can try again instead of distressing him further (and us!).
He's been with me for a month and seems to have increased in trust ~ but my gut feeling is that every time he is faced with a new situation or one that sparks memories of an old, unpleasant one, he will revert to defensive and potentially hazardous behaviour. I don't want to write him off ~ just be practical within my own situation and capabilities.
I believe he's not mean and difficult ~ just frightened and mistrustful.
He is a super forward going, responsive if nervy ride with a HUGE jump....even over very small fences...that in itself has me wondering a few things about original training.
Something in me desperately wants to help him but the Mum in me just wants to have a "nice" horse to deal with while my kids are in the picture.
This sounds mean to me ~ but there are times when you have to concede that you are not the only person in the world who is good to horses and can take care of a troubled one.
If you are wondering how I came to have him on my yard at all. This is how it happened:~
He was offered for loan. My mare needed a companion. He had a successful ridden past, although he had apparently been "on holiday owing to exams", so I have been told and as the arrangement was a free indefinite loan in return for having him kept and exercised. He has a fine track record in the ring but to me, a horse is not merely a means to rosettes.He was reasonable on the day he was tried, if unfit and a little wary of people after a season out in the fields with little human contact...and so he came to stay...
My questions are, all the same, whilst I try to make a sane decision as to whether to return him or to keep trying:~
Who amongst you has taken on a horse who has issues, problems, hang~ups, call them what you will ~ or has, I suppose more accurately, had a horse who has been the victim of a former owner who has had problems with patience and controlling their temper around horses?
In other words, who amongst you has taken on a mistreated horse?
What measure of success have you had in rehabilitating your horse?
Do you find that under pressure they revert to "impossible" behaviour, such have been their past experiences?
Is trust always an issue?
I realise, having spent all my too numerous to mention years amonst horses, that there is no such thing as a perfect one and that they are all given to moments of being "peculiar" BUT I know full well that some are a LOT more "peculiar" than others!
Whilst I have looked after and brought back to health the sick and the malnourished, I've never had to deal with the ill treated more than that and it strikes me that this little horse is not just "trying it on", he really has been battered at some point before his traceable past locally.They have LONG memories sometimes.
Has anyone had a success story?
Even if it's not me, in the end, who helps him regain faith in human nature, I'd like to think it's possible.
Once the farrier has driven away and it was just me and him again, he put his head down and came into the stable without a backward glance.
IS he winding me up or is he scared?
I've always reckoned horses are not so complicated as to play mind games. What you see is how it is, I've thought.
Any thoughts on this boy?
Any constructive critiscism of me even?
Any experiences, thoughts and advice would be helpful and much appreciated.
At the end of the day, I was reminded by a friend who thinks I'm nuts, I have horses for enjoyment....but it's sometimes not that simple, is it?
~Wyllow~
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t_linington
Gold Member
United Kingdom
815 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 2:45:49 PM
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Hi Wyllow. I can't help in the fact that i have not had a mis-treated horse before, but, i will say that i think the horse is very lucky to have found you! I know they are supposed to be fun, and it is hard when you have small kids....my main aim when buying charlie was that he was good around Jack (Jack-child...Charlie-horse) But, could you give him back to the owners?
Maybe, he will come good? The horse must have 'something' about him that you like? Is that enough?
I think you are a very kind, patient person and should gove yourself a pat on the back, But if i doesn't work out, don't blame yourself!
Tina
tina linington |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 3:03:26 PM
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Hi Wyllow
Horses can and do rehabilitate but it can be a long process depending on the history and the individual horse. The question you need to ask yourself is whether you have the time and the patience to do it with him and the will to carry on on bad days. Also, can you bear him to go back where he came from? It would be educational to find out about his breeder. Did he come from someone who will have given him love and kindness when he was a foal and taught him that people are good to be around? If he had that initial love then the job will be easier than if he has never really learnt to trust people.
Personally I would sedate him for the farriers visit and get him in before the farrier arrives. My friends cob was petrified of the farrier when she got him, broke away from them and galloped off. For the next few visits she had him fairly heavily sedated and gradually tailed off the sedation. He is now perfect with the farrier. I helped her to get him used to his feet being handled and banged (when he was happy for me to hold them) so it can be done.
You also have to think of the safety aspect if you have young children who could be injured by his unpredictable behaviour. I bought a 2 year old gelding who had a few hang-ups - he was my first ever horse - and we solved all the problems (not nearly as bad as yours) and he is now 27 and although horrible to any horses he doesn't like (ie anything that doesn't instantly accept him as "God") he is perfect with people.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.
Regards
Barbara |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 4:10:09 PM
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Thank you Tina and Barbara for your kind words and common sense.
Although my part bred Arab mare is the love of my life and was raised by those who taught her that people are kind and trustworthy,and passed into similar hands before my own, this little horse is originally from Ireland and his history is proving difficult to trace...well, lets just say that no one wants to fill me in with the details.
I should ask for his IHS passport from his owners, which apparently he has, although I've asked before and it's not been forthcoming, I suppose because he's on loan. Here in Jersey, it's not a requirement yet, or in the near future,for horses to have passports at all, so it's not obligatory to give the one that does exist to me.With this document, I could at least find out who bred him and who has owned him.
He came to me from someone who seemed very concerned for his wellbeing and keen that he should go to a loving home with people who would give him lots of attention as he had done without this, so I was told, for a while owing to pressures of study, etc. That, however, wouldn't on it's own explain his evident fear of certain things.
He obviously knows that some people are ok and can be quite affectionate on his own terms...but can be a Jekyl and Hyde if circumstances change around him, eg the arrival of a strange man on the yard ~ not just the farrier!
I do have some paste for sedation....I hoped I wouldn't have to use it ~ in fact, I hoped that given a few more weeks, he'd be that much better by the time he needed to see the farrier, that he wouldn't need it. As fate had it, he cast a shoe three and a half weeks after being shod....almost immediately before he left for my yard.I thought it considerate that he be shod for me.....
Still, I think this paste is an option that may save a lot of wrangling with him.
I would have brought him in this morning, but for the fact that just keeping him in the stable too long has the effect of making him more nervous than ever.
Again, I had hoped we could have built up to a decent length of time in there before the farrier was needed.
Yes, it does concern me that the safety of my children is an issue to be faced. They are nearly 13 and 11 and pretty capable....BUT he's a whole load bigger than they are and somewhat bloodier-minded!
Were he younger, the issues he has may be easier to resolve whilst he was still in that critical learning phase. I don't think there ever comes a time when the learning stops...just that it's not so fast or deeply imprinted as it is with say a two or three year old. Once they get to nine or so, it seems that they are a little more mindful of their own already learned opinions and this can be harder to "re~program".
Hmmmm...it does cross my mind that I don't want to send him back for the thought of what may happen to him should he fall into less patient hands than he needs...although, going back to his actual owners (who want him moved on) would hardly present a problem...it would be what happens after that.
I once took a whole year to find a home for a horse I took on to make sure he didn't stay where he was!!! I learned a lot and had a lot of fun with this boy who was just too big for me and not an option for the kids...I just liked him and knew I could help him on his way.He had a few funny ways, including a tendancy to rear under stress ~ but overall, he was not as bad as this little guy. He was a bit of a challenge to rehome, but it happened that he ended up with a lovely girl with a very quiet approach at the yard of the formidible but wonderful lady who taught me to ride a lifetime ago!So, happy endings are possible without me, even if I had a hand in that one!
I suppose I could go the same way with this one...but I really never intended to take on horses to rehome them!
Yes, there IS something about him I like. I like his proud bearing and spirit. I like his intelligence and ability to suss stuff out for himself ~ all the things that make him awkward !!
Another thing...he has beautiful eyes and you know what they say ~ it's all there in the eye. He's not a mean 'un.I may insist on him doing certain things and he may insist he won't...but he doesn't do it with teeth or heels or by rearing and I think were he mindful to actually use his not inconsiderable weaponry, he'd be sent home for the sake of safety.
I also like the way he almost reads your mind when he's ridden and that virtually the though alone is enough to tell him what to do next ~ heard about this often ~ only ever really experienced it with him to this degree ~ instantly...yes, he can "tune in" to me and I to him...but under stress, it's lost in an instant and he's impossible to "read" at all.
Oh the frustration!!!
Were it just me I had to consider, I'd probably take him on as a challenge and help him to sort himself out...but I do have a family and three other ponies to consider, too.
It's good to be able to share this and listen to different views and advice. I very much appreciate you taking the time to reply.
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again,
~Wyllow~
~Wyllow~
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 4:33:28 PM
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I understand about the safety issue, and if you do send him back you should not feel guilty, as you have not done anything to make him worse.
When we got Rene we were told after buying her, to be careful as she was a menace with the blacksmith. She's only had one set of shoes which were allowed to fall off! It seemed hard to believe this gentle soul could be difficult, as she was ok about picking up all her feet. She was ridden without shoes for about a year before hoof wear with increasing work made them necessary, so we organised for some sedation.
The farrier arrived an hour early, and she was still out, so he came to the field, no sedaton and started to shoe her. She was fine. I don't know what the other farrier had done to her, but mine had got to know her on a few visits to other horses before trimming her, and she's had a years trims before the shoes.
She was also wary of men, but this also got better, as both sons rode and were kind to her.
Unfortunately it takes far longer to regain trust that was lost in a split second of cruel or thoughtless behaviour. I gave a mare a temporary home this year for about 8 weeks while we waited for a place for her in a local sanctuary, she was insecure about food, would race from one hay pile to the next trying to keep them all, whereas mine just used to share one large spread of hay. She also had problems being ridden, and we filled some gaps in her history which led to the conclusion one or both of 2 dealers yards were responsible.
This mare was improving, and has continued to do so, but its a long process.
good luck
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Tab
Silver Member
United Kingdom
255 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 6:54:21 PM
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I do sympathise with what your going through, I had to make some very tough decisions about a mare my daughter and I bought that turned out to have huge problems. In the end it took 1 year plus the help of a Monty Roberts Instructor and Physiotherapist to convince vets that she was not just 'psychotic'. The poor little thing had just been through so much. With help from the MR Instructor we were able to regain her trust and get through to her - it was as though she'd switched off. She turned out to have a very nasty bone spavin in her hock. Once she was on Bute as well the transformation was incredible. She was doing so well, being ridden out - and enjoying it! Then one day whilst being long lined, (about four months in to her exercise program), her back legs just seemed to just give out. She went lame for a few strides then seemed to recover. She definitely wasn't right though from this point. Much of the behaviour she'd exhibited before came back overnight - swishing, reluctant, chewing the reins and yawning lots to mention just a few. But she was nowhere near what she was like when we got her either. It was as though this time she wanted to please us despite it hurting - it was heart breaking. She was hurting again but not terrified in the same way as she had been before. To cut a very long story short the incident in the school happened in mid-March. She was put on extra Bute which made her comfortable, but the minute she was weaned off the high dose she was as stiff as a board again. In July a new more powerful x-ray machine showed bone growth deep in her spine, too deep to operate on. She would have to be retired. We were OK with this as long as she was mentally happy and not in pain. However, despite no work and lots of different painkillers she did not improve. She was eventually put to sleep last month.
Despite this I have no regrets. The last two years have been an emotional roller coaster, but the highs have made the heart ache bearable. To see this little mare, written off as psychotic, turn in to the sweetest natured thing imaginable, enjoying life; not terrified of it is priceless.
I hope you find the right decision for you. Do bear in mind that many problem horses have some underlying physical problem. My daughter now works for the MR instructor mentioned above. Apparently as many as 60% of the remedials they see turn out to have an undiagnosed physical problem. If you do take on this horse the financial costs could be high not to mention the emotional ones.
Good luck,
Michelle
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 7:40:43 PM
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Thank you, Michelle ~ yes, it's crossed my mind that maybe there are other underlying factors that may not be immediately apparent such as some physical condition/s.
I might add that this little fellow sighs more than anyone I've ever known when being ridden ~ as he warms up and begins to realax a little the sighs are huge ~ almost groans.
There is no change in gait or movement in any way and he never tries to unseat me as if in discomfort.
When I've watched my daughter ride him, he seems to move freely and with a perfectly straight action, if a little close behind.
He gives no indication of pain or distress...but sometimes they don't.
However the sighing and groaning isn't remotely "normal".
The only thing I might add to that is he does it when he realises we are not about to bomb around the school and tackle all the fences and he begins to lower his head and walk more loosely, not all bunched up and ready as if to embark on the Charge of the Light Brigade, phase II !
Again, I wonder if it's not just that he's had a great deal of competitive riding and he associates being saddled up more with jmping classes than schooling or riding just for exercise or pleasure?
I'm so sorry to hear of your sad experiences and your eventual loss...although the evident rewards your clearly much loved mare gave you were obviously more than ample compensation.
Its so often the case that a horse will try it's hardest to carry on despite all pain they may experience.
It's good to know that there ARE many people around with kindness, patience and stamina such as your's and the continued determination to help a horse come through their difficulties.
I think you do come to know if you are the "One" for a horse and I think I will have the sense to know if it becomes clear that I am not.
Once again, many thanks for your advice,
~Wyllow~
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Wendy Allan
Silver Member
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 8:07:32 PM
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Wyllow,
It sounds as if you really love this little horse. I have a highland who suffered from fear based aggression - my opinion, everybody else thought she was psychotic. I state at length some of her problems in other posts, but she was incredibly dangerous - she once split my sternum and broke the ribs on either side because she saw somebody coming towards her who had previously upset her.
I struggled with her for 7 years before I started to break through. I have had her for 8 years now, and although she still has her moments, I don't think that she is dangerous any more. BUT....I know what makes her tick and how to distract her, I learned the hard way.
My mare has always been a darling to ride. She is amazingly patient and has never ever spooked with a rider on board. The worst she has done with a rider on board is anticipate a canter. The difficulty we had was general handling, grooming and tacking up.
The rewards of owning a horse like this are phenomenal, but I would never willingly take on another. The emotional turmoil is awful. When you have every professional and your whole family telling you that your horse is dangerous/psychotic and needs to be put down before she kills you or somebody else and you go against that advice, you have to be really strong. In my case, I was just plain cussed.
You will know deep down what the right thing for you to do is. Follow your gut feeling, whether that means keeping him or parting with him. Most importantly, never regret the decision you make.
Good luck,
Wendy |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 8:07:54 PM
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I have probably already mentioned on other threads another little mare that was put to sleep after the vet diagnosed a brain tumor, without the help of any scans / x-rays.
She was 'mental' and a danger. What she also was, was in the hands of a young novice on loan, been to a different yard with no other horses for the previous year, and used as a jumping machine till she tanked off out of the ring.
She could also have been having a 'mareish' moment, have you read the article in this week's horse and hound (which I only bought for this article) on the unpredicable nature of the hormonal competition mare. |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 9:51:57 PM
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Hi Wendy,
I can't tell you the depth of feeling this horse evokes in me.
When we were left alone this morning I just put my arms around him and cuddled him. If he was really an unpleasant person or really scared of every human, he wouldn't have let me do it, after all, he'd see me as a predator, more than likely, clinging to his neck like that.
I deeply respect your persistance and belief in your mare and your results speak for themselves.You must be a very special person and your mare an extremely lucky horse!
This boy isn't dangerous, I believe, but hazardous in inexperienced or heavy hands.
As I've said before on other threads, I've taken on an old horse (my vet thought I was nuts) and hopefully extended his life and improved it's quality while he lived, I don't regret it....but I would not go out to do it again.
I've taken on a laminitic pony whilst still far from well ~ I didn't dare mention her to the vet....and she turned out to be the best horse or pony I've ever shared my life with....but I'd hesitate to do it again or tell anyone else to try it!
The biggest horse I had at 16.3hh was by far the bolshiest ~ but he was underfed and as soon as he realised he didn't have to wait all night after being left in the late afternoon with a haynet that barely lasted him an hour or scrape up roots in a bare paddock during the day, his big angular frame visibly bloomed and his big *****ly attitude visibly shrunk. He was also stabled for far too many hours at a time and was written off by two vets as a potential ringbone case....when in fact, the reason he probably failed flexion tests
was that he was stiff from standing in one spot for hours on end in the stable.The xrays showed nothing.After a year and a half with us, he passed the vet with flying colours when he was on his way to a happy new home, well fed from living out on good grass!This was a happy ending indeed...but it cost me a year of reeling feelings and not considerable time put in with bringing him on with a trainer and expense in livery, feed, supplements. I feel I did the right thing by this horse....but I also said I'd never do it again...and within two weeks of his final departure....this little fellow comes into my life!
I know the rewards of having those horses I hope I've helped.... but the toll on nerves and pocket ~ not to mention family harmony is immense too!
Pat, that business of diagnosis without scans or xrays puts me in mind of the way the big guy was almost dismissed by one vet who said that with these cases of ringbone (that wasn't there in this "case"!!!)in a young horse it's almost kinder to make sure they don't have to suffer it's development any further. If the then owner had listened to him and not passed him on to me ~ or someone who didn't beleive what was said for no apparent substantiated reason, he'd probably not be alive now. As it is, he's enjoying his first season drag hunting with his new owner ~ fit and sound as a bell!
Sometimes scepticism of "expert" opinion isn't a bad thing.
I really do have great belief in my particular vets at the moment and they have saved the life of my colic prone Shetland stallion more than once...but there are times when your gut feeling and the instinct you develop from being around your horses daily DOES seem to be a truer guide to what is really going on ~ or not.
Again, many thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts.
~Wyllow~ |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 11:01:19 PM
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Hi Wyllow,
Would you think about the Parelli system?? The approach and retreat methods would be good. Remembering horses are in general very sceptical, claustrophobic, panicaholics! UNTIL they build up some form of trust and partnership with you.You could play (desensitise) with his feet and legs, for saftey reasons you could use a stick as an extension of your arm? This might help your farrier in the future and is better than doping? Does he have to have shoes?I was thinking that if you could get him used to you lifting his feet and picking them out and rubbing them he might except a trim? Also do you know if he has ever been in a stable before? The licking and chewing made me think he had not? I think you are right,he is frightened and mistrustful, this will improve with routine and good leadership.Would you concider going back to baby basics and start him again?That way you would make your intensions clear and he would trust you as a leader.These are all things I did with my horse who had been neglected badly before I bought him.I bought him when he was 4 years old....I was his 6th owner!I absolutly adore him,we've learn't so much from each other.
Good luck,he's lucky to have found you.
Debbie |
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MO Moor
Silver Member
United Kingdom
351 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2003 : 11:55:12 PM
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Can relate to all of your experiences. I too purchased a 2 year old arab colt that had been passed around the country and when i bought him i was his 7 th home and he was 23 months old. Hence to say he came with issues, but we are a good team. He is sharp and spirited which many others saw as dangerous and did not want to put the time or effort into getting to know him. We now work very well with each other and he is still a character but we understand each other and our boundries.
My first pony was also a real sad case. In short he was bought by an elderly man a 6 months of age to save him from slaughter and was turned loose into a field by himself. He was then sold on and tethered and starved until 2 years of age. He was then sold and turned away until 3. He was then BROKEN and beaten and abused by men who sold him to my local riding stables as a school pony. Again turned away and then i discovered him at 4.
He was scared, rebellious, cheeky, opinionated but a hard worker. My mum bought him for me and for 2 years i was kicked, crushed, thrown off, he still hated men with a passion, but we both loved jumping.
It was sudden, i had earnt his respect and the loyalty between us from that day until 2 years ago when he died at 27 years of age and all behavioural problems vanished. He worked his little heart out especially when jumping. He repected my judgement and i his. We worked on telepathy and i will never ever have a relationship like that again, so basically, it is worth it!
Did he ever trust men, no but he tolerated them. He did suddenly have these fliddy moments for no apparent reason, he would rear or go mad and have a temper tantrum, which i let him get on with as it was his memory and something, maybe a noise would trigger off, but he would soon come back to me and be my buddy.
k mckenzie |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 02:48:29 AM
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Hello Debbie
I couldn't agree with you more!
We are back to basics with this fellow and playing Parelli games with him as much as we can.
With regard to the farrier, he will allow me to handle his legs and pick up his feet, pick them out, tap them, bang them even...so he actually has no problems with them being handled....it's more, it appears, the very thought of having to come in and deal with a strange man. I'm working with the stick, tentatively....the slightest touch with that on his legs however has him hopping and dancing...and again I'm wondering who did what when he was first trained...?
He doesn't have to have shoes ~ but over here, in Jersey, we tend to hack out a lot for want of facilities, especially during the soggier portions of the winter and regular road work becomes a necessity when exercising. Also, I'd hate to get to the point where he becomes used to NOT wearing shoes or being shod and it then becomes an issue to start again ~ maybe for the next person if he doesn't stay with us.It just seems simpler to maintain the status quo and it's obvious he's been regularly shod and has good feet. It's the thought of a new experience , I think.
Yes, he's used to stables but sen little of them for the last six months or so, having been living out.But that should not make this degree of difference! My feeling is that he associates a stable with being trapped and hurt. It's a hunch, but from the way he behaves in one, it seems like he's terrified of anyone raising a hand in there. All grooming, once he is in....and it's improved when it's just myself and my daughters around, has to be done very slowly. If you raise a brush too fast he spins around with his head in the air. It may be a bit of an over reaction from me...but I feel he may have taken a blow or two in a stable or a confined space.
Im so glad you acheived success with your horse!
Again, he was less than half the age of this one
Were this one younger, I doubt it would be so hard. His outlook would be somewhat less formed and his views less entrenched...but you always continue to learn....so I'll persist!
k mckenzie
Again, it's great when you and the right horse team up and it seems you've had the experience twice!
It never fails to amaze me how horses get passed from piller to post, especially when they are young, green and still trying to figure out life and how to deal with it.
I have to say it again....in some ways it's far easier to deal with a youngster with hangups as the behaviour hasn't had the time to become entrenched and the animal is still forming his opinions. Once a strategy has become rooted in an older mature horse, I doubt it ever is altered much and in times of challenge, that early learning gets reverted to.
Your pony sounded a great character.It must have been a priviledge to have enjoyed such a partnership. When you find an activity you both enjoy it certainly acts as a bond.
This little horse is great under saddle and also loves to jump! He has his moments, but he's less worrying when he's ridden than he is from the ground.
Another thing I've noticed is that he is MUCH worse going into the stable after having been ridden. To get him in can take a bit of pursuasion...again, I wonder if he's misbehaved whilst out, been taken back and punished at some point?
I'm saying this for a good reason.
A friend of mine has a stunningly beautiful part Arab mare who is a dream to ride, jumps beautifully and still wins showing classes as a veteran!In the stable however, she is a demon. She'll go in, but once there, you can only come in on her terms and move at the pace of a snail, not meeting her eye and raising hands to tack her very slowly. She panics if more than one person is around in the stables at any point and threatens to attack you.
She has not been ill treated for many years now...but previously, her owner told me, she had failed to "perform", been taken back to her stable and "punished" ~ beaten so badly she STILL has hangups about stables and those who go into them.
I see a similar pattern with this horse....makes you wonder.
Again, I must impress, he's come from a place where people were caring and concerned for his well being...but you just can't tell what has happened before that.
I'm definitely going to enlist the help of my husband in handling him more and proving to him that men can be his mates as well as us girls.
Fear is a terrible thing and no one and nothing should ever be forced to do anything because of it. Respect is something else but far too many men especially have, it seemed, used fear to "break" horses and caused them all manner of unnecessary trust problems.
My husband had occasion recently to speak to an arrogant and obnoxious little man who owns race horses locally and supposedly has had a hand in riding and training at some point. He talked of "knocking sense" into one particular horse and went on to say it was the only way to get any respect from them and "show them who's Boss"....and my husband, much to his credit replied that it was just as well that his wife and little girls were not there otherwise they'd probably knock seven bells out of him....and possibly not just verbally.
My husband is still fuming about this conversation which was had a couple of weeks back and when he heard about the events of the day with the farrier, he insisted on going up to the field with me to cuddle the horse just to make a point.
This is one man, at least, whom this horse has come to trust a little...so, you never know.
I'll continue to say it ~ many thanks to all who continue to offer their experiences and advice to help this fellow and me.
You are pretty amazing people!
~Wyllow~
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dee
Silver Member
United Kingdom
401 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 12:12:01 PM
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Hi,
I have a Eyptian bred gelding who when we bought him mostly out of pity was a skeleton 15 months on is looking vastly improved but is still only five and a very green baby five, but he is 15.2 to 15.3hh so is big. He came to us with this head weave, I say weave, but he actually turns his head one way then very fast the other way, he does it when excited, nervous, being lunged and when ridden which is veru annoying as he over balances sometimes. We thought as he had been in three of four homes in the space of two years it could be just nervous -ness. But he is happy and settled with us and still does it. I was going to ask our physio to look at his neck and back just in case, but she was already attending my other two, so will ask her when she comes in Jan 04. Any suggestions.
dee |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 12:55:39 PM
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| We had a filly that box walked years ago,round and round allways on the right (never the left)rein,and the more excited she got the faster she went round,(i.e,at feed times,)she went out regularly, was'nt lonely,so there really was'nt any reason for it just highly strung.Its very difficult to stop them doing it as its a habit.And she was home bred and never been mistreated in her life!?strange? i think your right about the horse physcology bit!! |
Edited by - Libby Frost on 19 Nov 2003 1:25:02 PM |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 1:20:37 PM
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Habits are sometimes more than just simple habits and seem almost to be obsessive, compulsive disorders in some horses and people aswell.Some behaviour is almost "ritual" it appears. Sometimes, there really does seem to be no apparent cause and I suppose its a case of what the individual can cope with.
The troubled little horse we have, has a compulsive habit of standing by the fence and touching the tape with his nose every couple of seconds. He knows full well it's on! He can hear it ticking! When he's bored with that, he moves to a free standing post (part of a temporary fencing set up, currently with no fence)...and touches that every couple of moments too!
He doesn't do it when he's stressed and he has company and plenty of space....it's just a habit.... the tongue sucking thing is a stress related habit and I dread to think what he'd do if he were in.... and it's just dawned on me that THIS may be the reason he's been OUT for so long....coupled with other issues...pure speculation, but if he's not happy in a confined space and finds a way to suck in the open...???
Geeeeeze!
You need a phd in psychology to have horses!!!
I hope you find nothing wrong with your gelding, Dee, but on the other hand, were it a physical cause that could then be treated, I guess you'd maybe find an answer. Good luck.
~Wyllow~ |
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Wendy Allan
Silver Member
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 5:40:47 PM
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Varaina,
My highland is from Glen Albyn. She is a chocolate dun, named Tara (mostly)- this has morphed into "Biggest girlie", but her posh name is Big Nurse Ratched.
My other girls are Annie - morphed into Dolly, and Susie (previously mis-spelt due to large drug intake), posh name Blue Sonnet.
Do you think you know my highland? I know pretty much of her history as I have owned her since she was a 2 year old. It's a very long story.
Wendy |
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Wendy Allan
Silver Member
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2003 : 5:46:01 PM
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Oops, sorry Fiona. I'm still quite new to this forum and still working out who is who. Plus I am naturally a bit confused - too many children and four legged people.
Wendy |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 12:46:15 AM
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Well about the box walking, I was told by the feed specialist in N.Ireland for baileys, to put a few old big tyres around the stable as then the horse has to think where it is walking, and can't just run round.
The black mare I have a pic on the thread could their be arab blood, is very demanding. She was out of a sheltar, as a cruelty case. We never rescued out of the sheltar, but rescued her from her the person who did. When she came out of the sheltar she was two, the person couldn't do anything with her and sent her down to us. We weren't experienced with difficult horses at this time. She was still full of absess and gaping wounds ect. We were to re break her and calm her down. Spent 6 weeks with her getting her over the fear of normal things like brushing, and we did manage to break her in for riding. She was also extremly thin, but we fattened her up a bit, she did seem to weave slightly at the time. Well got her back 6 monthly for the next year to continue her schooling ect, each time she came back she was as bad, extremly thin, and her phscological problems getting worse. We fattened her up each time and done more work. Well she went back and we never seen her for two years. We did try to buy her but the person wouldn't have it. After two years of her trying to take a foal out an emmaciated mare, and her throwing people of she asked us to start riding her. She was literally skin and bone, saddle didn't fit ect. People were reporting that she was attacking people over the door, and any one who walked in her stable had to back feet at them, she stood and weaved most of the day, with the rest of the day box walking, and head shaking. Attacked any horse that went near her. Well we took her on loan, for a year. Every one thought we were mad, when we got her to the yard was told by vets ect to put her to sleep, as she was too far gone in the head, and was extremly dangerous.
She was in a very bad way. She was kicking at us if we touched her, or anything, and her appetite was non existant, she was a worrier, and panicked if the horse next door went any where, couldn't put her in the field she would just work up into a sweat in mins, just weaved and box walked all day. she had also got very nappy, and her stable was out of bounds to all. her feet were horrendous, sand and grass cracks, as they hadn't been seen to in three years. First thing we done was got her teeth done. We thought she was parrot mouthed. It had turned out she wasn't originally, but because of neglegance her jaw had locked which meant she had only 5% of the movement in it, and had caused the lower jaw to pull backwards, which meant the top teeth had grown down. dentist Spent three hours on her, as she had everything possible wrong with them. This stopped some of the weaving , We spent hours grooming her to get her used to the brush again. We moved the horses from the current place to another place, where their was only are horses. This was a great step as it meant we could get her in a proper routine, put her in a stable which was long but quite narrow, with a window at each end, and a wall that she couldn't put her head over between her and the other horse. This stop some more of the weaving, as she was more interested in what was going on outside, though we still had the anxiety problem, and her touchyness to deal with. we got her used to being left on her own, by taking the horse next door out for 5 mins and increasing it, with us in giving her loads of attention, took 6 months, but we did get it out of her eventually. By this time she was extremly dangerous to ride. She was constantly rearing, and she did topple backwards, landing me in hospital, looking for broken bones, could only ride her in double bridal, and all she wanted to do was gallop. so reschooling it was. had her to a few shows, 6 months after we had got her, and was getting placed but they all told us she was under weight. so by 11 months she was looking really well, excellant condition, and we managed to win the intermediate section of the irish pony society northern silver league(16 points clear) (we were determined before she went back, we were going to win something for all are hard dedicated work. She seen two further dentists, and took everything that was going due to low immune system, and everytime we were moving forward something happened and knocked us back. by the time the twelve months had gone by we had achieved a lot Even in the show ring a reserve champion hack, no one ever thought she would of transformed the way she did, and all it took was a good daily routine, extra attention, and dedication. The worst thing that could of happened was that the person took her back after the year, we were told by feed specialists, vets, farrier ect not to, we had got her passported, we never sent it back with the horse. But we couldn't do anything. We offered to buy her, and she refused, her daughter wanted to sart to ride her (after seeing us do so well). She went back their two weeks before phoning us up and telling us how mad she was . We went to collect her, and all the years work was un done. The vet didn't think a horse could lose so much weight in two and a half weeks, he recons she wasn't fed. She started worrying again, box walking, weaving and was very touchy again, we got the dentist back out who sorted her teeth again, she came back with a cut that was down to muscle and untreated and infected. it took 8 weeks to get that healed, and their is still a slight bump where the proud flesh was. The dentist refered her to a chiropractioner. The chiro couldn't believe the state of her back, 10 being the worst gave it 9 1/2, and her poll 7. So she done a few sesions with her, and after another three weeks off work we were allowed to start riding her again two weeks ago, building her up slowly. She been back with us for three months now, her weight is nearly back up to what it was, all her problems have disappeared again, and she is starting to relax. all the cracks have now grown out, and her heels are no longer collapsed. It has taken over a year to get this far, but it was worth it, and people look forward to seeing her at shows ect, as they know of her background. It has taken a lot of money, to get her this far, but well worth it. She is a beautiful horse, and turns a lot of heads in the show ring, and has all the qualieties of the show hack, with a beautiful pace, and extensions to die for. We are hoping to develop her showing next year (taking her to BAlmoral, and Dublin Horse Show), and are aiming to qualify and take her to the horse of the year show as a small hack in a few years time.
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 11:00:50 AM
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What a story of deication and faith you tell.
Your mare has found an exceptional home with you and I can do nothing but tell you how much I admire your perseverance and belief in your mare and in yourselves and your ability to turn her life around.
Would that there were more people like you in this world ~ it would be a better place ~ and not simply for horses either.
Your story is touching and inspirational ~ but it takes very special people to be able to achieve what you have managed.
Bless you and your mare ~ you are special indeed.
~Wyllow~ |
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Wendy Allan
Silver Member
United Kingdom
310 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 6:10:55 PM
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Incredibly hunbling story. To do all that over and over again just defies words. You are amazing. Have you gained/assumed ownership of her now? You and she deserve nothing less than an assured future together.
Very best wishes for the future, and if i am able to travel I will try to see you at Balmoral.
Wendy |
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suyents
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1651 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2003 : 6:27:24 PM
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Helen,
PLEASE assure us all that this mare is now yours and that she will not be taken away from you again....??
suyen |
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bridie
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2395 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 09:48:31 AM
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Hi there. I have got to know Helen & her sister through another horse site on MSN...her dedication to this mare is fantastic. I have tried to post a pic of the mare for you to see but I cant make it work  . I believe the mare is now hers, so can be assured of a loving home with a remarkable young lady. |
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 8:57:56 PM
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She is now my sister and I's mare and don't think she will be going anywhere now. It was hard and their was a point during the summer we were giving up with her but worked through it for her sake, We never did want her to go back as we always said she would go in the head, with many professional people agreeing. But she wasn't away long enough to do that, but did bring back some of her undesirable habits. The three year old thats in foal, was also badly done by. We brought her out of pity we got her at 9 months old. are father was buying us an early christmas present as he wasn't too well (he always promised he buy us a horse) well we went to a local breeder and dealer. we were looking for a yearling, we love youngsters. there was two we were going up to see a registered tb, that was not with the breeder, and this coloured mare. well we walked in her stable and there was a skinny malnutritioned, ugly pony standing at the back of the stable trembling with fear . no food, water or beding present. we liked her colour. it took months to get her to walk by a pedestrian, with out bolting and she spent three months on 30acres with a herd of cows(couldn't catch her) . she is still really awkward to work with and she hates men, and hats. and she is still very anti-social, and has a habit of biting men or strangers. Though I don't mind that as she is very good with us, and we can do anything with her. we also have had the pleasure of reschooling problem horses. Without charging, we get enough out of seeing the change in the animal and the riding experience. We also make it rule that the rider gets a few lessons from us with the animal before it gets sent back! IT IS Usually friends horses we do it for, and we have had many people asking us to school their horse, but we don't have the time for them all, and unless we can spend enough time with the animal we won't take it on. We do alot of competing on are horses working hunter, show jumping, dressage, show hunter, a couple of show hacks, and the youngsters in hand. And people don't believe it when we tell them we don't have a paddock (getting one put in this winter). we do all are schooling on the road, though we are out with them every week, and thats where most of their schooling is done. We weren't brought up with horses just a friend asked us if we wanted to start riding had a just backed two year old colt, and no rider. We never had a clue, we were stuck on this horse and left, and had to start reading books. We have been riding him riding now 6 1/2 years and thats the pony that learnt us so much about riding, as he had every schooling problem a horse could have, and then we taught him a lot of bad habits at the start too. he has been reschooled by us three times or more. Because as we were reading books and learning we realised we were doing it wrong. now he is a super pony scoring 70% or more in the last 8 tests, prelim and novice, and we kinda used him as are guinea pig, when we trying to advance, and have achieved quite a lot with him, as he is not a natural dressage pony. what we would like to do is to train are coloured with the help of an instructer to advanced dressage, as she is a natural, doing one times, extensions, passage and half passes, and we never had to teach her(very forward going). We were just recently looking for a 15h2 that was broke and would do for intermediates, and of course we had to buy an untouched four year old out the field. Never even had a head collar on. we had great fun breaking her, though she gets in a right state when she sees her rug.(and shes clipped)We would some day like to own a stud, and a horse sanctuary, but will just have to wait and see.
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honey
Platinum Member
N. Ireland
2634 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2003 : 10:18:50 PM
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I hope this works 
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Edited by - honey on 23 Nov 2003 10:26:09 PM |
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