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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 6:11:07 PM
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Just out of interest has anyone noticed how differnt our Arabian horses are now from just 20 odd years ago? I have been going through some old books ( I promised the Brooke hospital ladies I would bring some to malvern with me) I couldnt help noticing the difference in the faces of the arabs of yester year as to todays arabs, not to say they were not beautiful , but by golly the horses of today certainly are different ! I looked at a picture of Bask ,( he is Minuettes great grand father!) his stud fee in those days was $10,000, yet stand him in the ring today and I doubt he would make the top 6! One horse I found in the book Nabiel ( Sakr x magidaa) was more like todays horse, Khemosabi also with his big kindly eyes and knowing features , Ibn Morafic seemed also very like todays types, yet no one can deny the arabians of today have changed . Maybe there are those who would say the horses of today are sadly lacking in certain developments, whilst others would say they have come a long way.
I have been interested in arabs all my life but I have to admit they have changed from the horses I remember as a girl. progress or not
I noticed this year more and more foals seem to be born with more extreme heads and lovey bodies. what are your thoughts on this subject?? 
ps. by the way ,the book I was looking at is the 1979 stallion guide of the Arabian Horse World.
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 7:04:59 PM
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One thing we musn't forget is that photography has also come a long way since then and I can make today's exotic heads look worse than those of yesteryear with one click of the camera!!!!
Having said that, I think Arabs have got prettier and more refined and agree many of the top horses from then would get the gate now. However, we need to retain the good points (legs, bodies and horses that fit together instesd of looking like two or three different horses joined). I am sure that heads are much "better" than they used to be. Selective breeding can vastly improve the horses but can also fix in faults so we need to retain the good without accentuating the bad.
Good topic, Lynda.
Barbara |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 7:18:15 PM
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| i think Ralvon elijah was a horse ahead of his time,interesting to see hyperthetically what he would do in the ring today? |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 7:25:18 PM
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Just to show how far we have come, a couple of horses from the early '70s
Bint Magidaa
Maymoon
Mike
PS Can I take my tongue out of my cheek now please? |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 7:43:49 PM
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Ooooo mike - great return !!!
Today I was speaking with someone who I admire greatly regarding the breeding of Arabians - in particular Straight Egyptians. His view was that we haven't made the progress we should of in the past 20-30 years. That the World is lacking in true 'breeders' who are prepared to invest in a future. Only too often 'A' is bred to 'B' to produce superstar show horse. There is no selective breeding just fashion...........and that leads to what ? How many foals are bred to produce a TOP class individual. How many people study pedigree's ? How many people forgive a 'weak' horse in a pedigree ? Once its in there its never bred out it only ever comes back to haunt you. How many people are prepared to wait years for an individual ? How many are just breeding for the showring and that illusive sale ?
It was very thought provoking. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 7:48:06 PM
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I have a Ralvon Elijah daughter, she is 22 yrs old and has a very extreme head, so I don't think they were that uncommon, as Barbara quite rightly says photography has come a long way, also the pose for the photo in the first place. And like you Barbara I can make Dakharo look like a pit pony if the camera is in my hands lol!!!  |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 7:56:18 PM
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Some very good points there Delith, how many people go to a good stallion with a plain mare in the hopes of him improving her next generation , yet as you say if there are weak individuals in the mares pedigree it wont matter how good the stallion is the offspring will carry as much of her genes as his!
I get your point mike, but then the SE's have always been beautiful, you look it this book I quoted and you will see page after page of big bodied horses with short legs and bigger, plainer heads than the horses of today ( Se's excluded) or have I got it totally wrong? |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 8:24:27 PM
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It's not just the heads though. If you look at the top lines of some of the earlier horses there are definite "jumpers bumps" and some with low slung bellies and poor back ends yet they were highly prized.
It's interesting to see how the different "types" have emerged and yes it might be fashion but maybe that's not a bad thing (and that from a Crabbet/Old English breeder!). What it does do is present a spectrum and with more emphasis on disciplines other than showing, it's interesting to see which type is best for which discipline.
And Lynda - I'll be first in the queue at the Brooke stand - I love buying older books and magazines - keeps me quiet for hours!! |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 8:27:24 PM
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Hi
I think that the answer to this is the same as anything, look at the fashion models, car models, bike models, clothes , LIFE, all things change, and will change, upward and on, all people have to do is accept and move one, not saying you should dismiss everything bygone, but use it, as everything else has, hope you get the gist.
B (France) |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 8:48:14 PM
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I hear what Delyth say's and agree, but.......to do that you need acres and acres of land, oodles and oodles of money, and, to be able to live a very long time!!
We can be selective and wait, to a point, but who wants to anymore? If you want the fun of the show ring.....is it fun? then you breed for the now, maybe if you are lucky, you can also take into consideration the points mentioned by Delyth, but afraid not many can or even want to now.
What is it they say?...I want it now!! or was that someone on Big Brother!!
There is a case for those that do sit it out and breed carefully reading their pedigrees, to only breed unfashionable, unsaleable 'horses'.
Who is right?
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Edited by - SueB on 23 Jun 2006 8:50:14 PM |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 10:46:18 AM
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I think some good points have been made ....but I'm not sure that things have changed that much, have they?
I mean, thinking of a book I have on the history of the Crabbet stud, I know I've seen a number of horses that quite honestly were not exactly about to win any beauty contests ( maybe it WAS the camera....but some of the mares in particular look very mulish!) .....and then there was Skowronek, who ~ for the most part, looked like a fairy tale come true......but then again....get the camera at a different angle and the horse in a woolier coat....and he could have passed for a welsh pony!
His son, Raffles, was a almost a reject and sent to America as part of an overall "deal".....and became an acclaimed sire there whilst looking , depending on the angle again, just like the pony that he was in terms of size!
I have, speaking of ponies, a Welshy that looks more Araby than my purebred Chlio most of the time from ANY angle!!!!
When I went to view horses a couple of years ago, it was all a question of type. All the horses I saw were pure bred Arabs but some looked very fine, some were typical Crabbet types and a lot more "serviceable", one of them quite honestly, apart from the tail carriage, could have been ANYTHING when you looked at the HEAD and yet was fantastically bred from a fabulous mare and a famous sire....so what can you say?
As with any breed, breeders have their own ideas as to what makes a "beautiful" horse. The majority , thankfully, put sound conformation before anything and have the health and strength of their horses at heart, although what is perceived ~ to me anyway ~ as beautiful, should be a strong, well built animal which is a pleasure to behold because it is like an athlete ~ an ideal physical type for the task~ and to me, this means being able to be ridden. To me, an ideal Arab would be a working type ( although with that beauty and grace you'd expect ) that could perform well in endurance or racing, dressage etc ~ some ridden discipline.
However, I don't think it's a totally invalid reason to have a horse just because it is beautiful to look at and I can see why some breed for sheer beauty although it looks like the animal may collapse if a 6 stone kid sat on it! This isn't my idea of a "horse" and I can see why those who do not understand Arabs, look at these horses and label them as "poodles". But that is not why they were bred ~ they were never supposed to win an endurance race! What I do think is unacceptable, though, is to breed for "fashion" , forgetting that a horse should possess strength and soundness....and I don't know how true it is, but I've also heard that some have resorted to surgical adjustment of facial features for the show ring ~ if that IS true, then it's abhorrent!!!!!!!
Whatever you think, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what is a "picture" of grace and charm to one, will be overbred and characature like to another....and what is a sound athletic riding horse to some may well look like a cob to the people at the other end of the scale.
At least while there are a variety of opinions about what an Arabian Horse should look like, then there is a good mix of genes out there and one extreme will not become "the norm" as it has with disasterous consequences to other animals like dogs, where frequently Chihuahuas have brittle bones and Bulldogs need c~sections to have puppies and can barely breathe without effort, and Daschunds have frequently painful backs and vertebral degeneration.
Whatever your opinion of preferred type, be it the fineness of the pure show horse bred to parade and little else or the strength of the endurance Arab, each has something to commend it and a beauty all it's own.
As for me, I went for a mixture ~ the best of both worlds, I think although some might say she is neither one nor the other!!!!
Chlio is 3/4 Crabbet , 1/4 Egyptian and at 15.1hh is taller and finer than some pure Old English or Crabbets and has a fine head but she still has good bone and a solidity and "squareness" I find reassuring in a riding horse!
Thing is, going back to that perception thing......I can make her look like a pony with a bad camera shot, all sweet and cuddly with no particular dish to her stuuning face and her tail all droopy.....then again, I've been asked if she is a TB by friends with race horses ?!?!?!?!?!?!?! yes, ok.......then sometimes,when she trots out with her tail flagged over her back and her nostrils flaring, her head tossed high and her fabulous long mane flying she actually DOES look like the spectacular Arab girl I think she is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only, I have to be quick with the shutter to catch it on a photo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd have to put up some pics to show you what I mean ~ she looks like the TWIN of Milly the Welsh Pony in some of them, like a TB in others when she is face on to the camera and her mane tidied away ~ and in some 3/4 or profile shots, FINALLY you'd see what you'd expect with the huge eyes and nostrils, dished face and silky long mane.....but I throw away a lot of shots of the "pony version" before we get there!!!!!
As you might say about so much in life ~ appearances can be deceptive and it's only the way you look at it!!!!!!!!
Have a look a pics of Skowronek with that swan like neck from one angle and then see him in other shots looking like a kid's mount and I swear you'll agree, the more things change, the nmore they stay the same!!!!!
I'll find the site Im thinking of and you can see what the camera does on a "classic" example! |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 10:58:25 AM
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Skowronek site :
http://excaliburmorabs.tripod.com/skowronek.html
Scroll down past the pics that don't seem to load as there are a good selection of shots of this legend of a horse who could, if you didn't know it, look like a Polish Prince or a cuddly plump pony depending on his coat, his condition .....or just how he was photographed!! |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 4:50:04 PM
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Sue,
I believe the song goes "I want it all and I want it now!"
SE-wise in terms of that all elusive type, the rest of the arabian world has in the main pretty much caught up whilst the SE breeders have stood still for the last 20 years or so! There has been some slight improvement in the top horses in terms of balance and harmony but the "type scale" is still more or less where it was It is if our reaction to a great horse is not "Well how can I/we improve it?" but "It just doesn't get any better than this! There are several reasons for this but the chief ones are an unwillingness to commit to the long term, a shortage of horses with strong balance pedigrees due to breeding for a "quick fix" or under the influence of fashion. There is also an acute shortage worldwide of as Delyth put it "true breeders" of real vision and long term goals As a group SE breeders are completely out of ideas, we haven't had a fresh one for the last 20 years and it shows! All that happens is a constant rehashing of what has been done many times before! Without some original thinking and the commitment to see it through, I see another 20 years of stagnation ahead!
Mike |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 5:09:00 PM
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I would much rather have a 'plain' but very correct quality mare to breed from . But then we get into the thorny question of what we all consider to be plain ? And there are some posts about long legs that imply them to be a good thing - surely it's a question of a balanced horse? Just my tuppence worth!
I agree with Delyth 100% that there seems to be little foresight, like breed A to B and then thinking down the line before you breed what to do with the result rather than just the immediate one. And it's very true that a major fault in either stallion or mare comes back to hit you in a foal one or a few generations further on  .
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 5:20:36 PM
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The trouble with long legs is that the length is almost invariably in the cannon bones where you don't want it!
As for the "automatic" crossing of A and B without thinking through the consequences for the future, its one reason why I avoid horses with my initials as a prefix like the proverbial plague!
Mike |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 10:49:49 PM
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Hijacking a bit (sorry) I was impressed with the Shrowronek site and have been looking for ages but can only find the odd couple of pictures of Dargee, does anyone know a good webpage please. I know that the Wentworths bought in Dargee and well as Shrowonek and as he is in Freddies lines I'm curious!!
Sandie |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 12:02:07 AM
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Sandie,
I think that you would find this interesting http://www.crabbet.org.uk/articles_oldeng1.htm
Tonight I am feeling a little fed up with being almost constantly critical and negative, so in a more positive, forward looking frame of mind ...
As I hinted earlier, progress (assuming that there is such a thing} in the past has mainly come about when breeders have tried things that haven't been done before As evidence I refer to El Shaklan, Aswan at Tersk, Skowronek and later Dargee at Crabbet, and so on The problem with trying something "radical" is that whilst you will be hailed as a genius if it works, you will be forever condemmed as as idiot if it doesn't In the light of this fact, and to be sure, this isn't for the fainthearted (exactly why will become clear in a moment!) Here is my "recipe" for SE breeding
Take one mare, heavily bred to Morafic and or Moniet El Nefous. Preferably but not necessarily a descendant of TheEgyptianPrince (though Ansata Shah Zaman should work just as well).
Step One.
Breed the mare to a grandson of the 2nd horse pictured in this thread. This will produce a very "hot" filly that looks more or less like the photo and will bring out the "Morafic look" from the mares pedigree and will be structurally much better than the dam Now for the hard part .... try to keep the filly in one piece until she's old enough to breed from. The first two years are the hardest!
Step Two.
Breed the result of step one to a grandson of the horse in the first photo. This should shorten the head a little and further enhance the eye as well as producing a horse that is rather more "square" in outline Try to forget that this is a line renowned for producing hot horses that are "bl***y minded" and concentrate instead on the fact that this will quieten things down. You may or may not at this point loose some of the movement that you gained in step one
Step Three.
Breed the result of step two to a grandson of TheEgyptianPrince. After two successive outcrosses this is in essence going back to the blood you started with except that along the way, you will have lost the majority of the faults that you had and should have gained in type, structure, quality and movement. This final step is in the main to put back the movement that you may have lost a little of in step two.
Have Fun!!!!!
Mike |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 08:44:18 AM
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Mike!!!
Your SE breeding recipe reallly made me chortle! The most acredited Lebanese cookbook is a horror to use as you start with the recipe you want which then refers you to another one to do a particular thing that again refers you to another one, and on and on. You end up with lots of little post-it notes all over the book and by which time you are totally lost and have forgotten what you are trying to 'cook'.
And your recipe assumes that you breed a filly every time so it only takes you say max 12 years to get to Step 3 .
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 10:26:43 AM
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I to had to laugh, if I tried to go down this path and assuming I started tomorrow with all new bloodlines to that which I have today, where would I find these horses to breed to ? would I have to have limitless money? and if I had all this and could end up with this wonderful filly how old would I be? I am 61 now!
Can I go back to the changing faces of arabs for a moment, when we talked of long legs I too dont want long cannons, but I dont want a big bodied horse on short stubby legs either, you can have a long legged horse with long forarms and short cannons. A good expressive (sp) face not too extreme in dish is more the ideal . I can only ( with the time I have left) try to breed horse's with an over all pleasing outline and a beautiful head , good legs, with a kind disposition who can carry his owner to ANY discipline they wish to pursue, and as long as the horse is happy in his life I have not wasted my time here on this earth. |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 11:48:13 AM
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Lynda, like any "guru" worth his or her salt, I would be more than happy to supply/help you find the appropriate horses! Consider the above to be an abridged alternative to AAB vol I & II for those with a desire to live fast and die young! By Jane's estimate you would be a sprightly, but bruised and battered 73 year old. Though one with incredibly fast reactions and considerable agility! Perhaps I should take to wearing a turban????
So far as forelegs are concerned the ideal ratio of cannon to forearm is 1:2.5 as long as this ratio is preserved or increased (that is the cannon gets proportionally shorter) then a longer leg should be OK. The main thing is that overall balance and harmony is preserved
Mike |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 4:35:43 PM
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To get back to the title of the thread 'The Changing Face of Arabians', though Lynda obviously didn't mean to focus on the face part, I do think that these days that far too much attention is being paid to the head and neck and everything else in a horse seems to be forgotten so maybe we should just drape the horse in a sheet and present it to the judges in such a way  ?
Like everyone else, I love a beautiful head but for me it's the big oval eyes, small ears, a small muzzle and correctly set on neck with an arch that really matter. But with a correct mare, the head and neck can be added in one generation but not the limbs, shoulder or the length of back.
How did we get to this stage? Giving judges a type standard IMO certainly never included ignoring conformation but it seems that this is what we have come to in the show ring, the head and neck that dictates what is a good horse or not.
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 7:22:37 PM
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For what it's worth, I think that giving our judges a standard to judge to, was a positive step backwards in the name of "progress" Our judges had managed perfectly well for decades, without needing to be told what they were looking for, indeed any differance of emphasis amongst the judges fed back into helping to maintain diversity within the breed Now, perhaps because it is something that most people can agree on, the head and neck at least seem to have become the overriding factors so far as the showring is concerned.
As an aside, had Bask been in the UK during his lifetime, I doubt he would have had the influence here, that he undoubtedly did and continues to have in the USA
I agree with Jane in that pretty is easy but structure is very much harder to get right. Perhaps this is why in a society geared for instant gratification we see an awful lot more of the former, than we do of the latter!
Apologies for my earlier humourous digression, it is perhaps worth remembering though, that the best humour usually contains a certain degree of truth
Mike |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 7:37:52 PM
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Yes Jane ,of course I didnt mean face as in face just to look at Thoraya as an example, she has beautiful features, big eyes, a body and legs that are hard to fault, she moves for england, yet she does not have that dish that everyone desires today, after saying that she could not fail to catch any judges eye because she SHOUTS QUALITY and that is so hard to ignore here's hoping her foal by WSA Charismma has it all ! |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 8:54:51 PM
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I back off these type v conformation debates because it involves so many 'other' factors to bring in, not just a head and neck.
But.....our overseas judges do tend to put type way above any other factor.
Whereas someone like me, will put type first, then value movement very highly too, and plonk all this together with good conformation.
The conformation defects or good points, please don't forget good points too!, are then juggled around with the type and movement.
Recently I put a very successful horse 2nd, only because on that day it moved like a Burnham Sea Donkey! I expected better and was dissapointed.......but thats judging, it's what the horse does 'on the day' not what it did last week!!
I do hear what Mike says, judges are tending to prefer type over and above conformation to such a degree, it has almost unbalanced the finer art of judging.....(JMO) This in turn could have a very detrimental effect on future breeding choises, and in turn we will ultimately have extremely pretty, shuffling, long legged, bog eyed beauties, all shuffling out for thier hankies when they don't win.
You can guess I've had a glass of wine tonight
Cheers..Sue
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