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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 10:15:25 AM
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It is a concern within the AHS that the in hand entries are dwindling and county shows etc are becoming less willing to affiliate and have Arab classes.
We were urged to support our local county shows, as the 'shop window' for our horses.
This brought out the issue of qualified judges. Some areas are so short of panel judges that it is not economically viable to become affiliated as a show. This is affecting both the regional groups and the counties. You cannot keep on asking the 'local' panel judge, there needs to be more of them, so everyone'e horse has a fair crack of the whip with the slightly different tastes and styles that different judges bring.
The system is too slow. To address this the AHS is going to 'fast track' judges from other panels who express an interest in judging Arabs.
(Your suggestions welcome I am just reporting here)
Some delegates pointed out that the nature of the selection process deters many good potential judges as they keep getting 'knocked back' without feedback or explantion.
The present system is not designed at 'training', but tests what you know. In a way, the luck on the day that the person assessing your performance has the same 'choices' as you do - and we all know judges can have widely differing opinions!
It was requested that more effort needs to be made to identify areas where there is a lack of judges and try to fast track suitable candidates who have been trying to get on the panel for years.
Some groups have lost money each time they put on a show, but feel it is part of their 'raison d'etre' . There is a genuine anxiety to get more judges on the panel, especially ridden judges.
Many judges are fully booked and unavailable, the system needs revising. Some are unpopular, so there needs to be more choice for everyone. Many of our good judges are now ageing, so there is a need for fresh blood.
The AHS is currently looking at its selection procedures.
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 11:04:25 AM
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Now my bit! I started doing he AHS judges courses about 8 years ago, initially for interest to see just what they were looking for. I suppose I am now a world expert on failing the selection procedure.
I am using "I" where it could apply to many others out there. Its just a demo of how we don't progress.
I know I am not 'thick', I am a graduate and have done a bit of part time teaching on undergraduate courses. I am also a qualified swimming teacher and have got my group of 8 - 9 year olds into the winning positions at the inter club galas, so I can identify physical form and shape, and the shape of movement.
So why do I keep failing to progress with the Arabian horse which is the overriding passion of my life? I know the 'bible' inside out, my signed copy of Peter Upton's book.
I bought an unshown colt that became internationally qualified, and bred another to that standard out of an unplaced mare, so am very lucky or can see some good qualities when they are before me.
Although I did not know it at the time, even my foundation mare had bred an internationally qualified ridden horse, so although my Arab knowledge might not be perfect, I would like it developed!!!!
I judge the local livery yard shows, and am happy that my places had corresponded closely with those of other experienced invited judges previously. I get invited back in subsequent years, so must not have raised too many objections from the 'losers'.
Do I have to become a 'bad loser' and just say my face does not fit?
Or explain it away by the total lack of structure that has been a feature of the system. SOME have been excellent, vet's lectures on legs, but the detail would have baffled a final year vet student, let alone those uf us who had been up at five ad driven 150 miles plus to attend, and really wanted our beds! No notes given to read over after, as an ex - quasi teacher, I could write the syllabus for them if I knew what they wanted!
This last time we were given a written question on strains a hundred years ago. While this is all very interesting how does it help me evaluate the modern Arab that is standing before me?
A potted history of the evolution of the different types legitimatley found within the breed would be a more valuable teaching tool.
Anyone else with frustrations or suggestions on what they woud like with regard to new judges should be posted ASAP, so that we can let the judges selection panel know while they are still actively reviewing their procedures.
Please post if you can identify with any of the above! |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 11:37:20 AM
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Selection of judges is always going to 'controversial'
I went the through the selection process at my first attempt. I don't know the right 'faces'...It was hard, and you do need to know a lot of veterinary stuff, however, I am controversial and independant.I do know good and bad conformation, and I know I have the abilty to see faults AND good points on horses very quickly?....and I am very confident in doing so. ..modest with it too!!....but I do know that I can see a good, well balanced, typey Arab very quickly, this does help!
Maybe these are some of the 'other' traits the selectors look for?...I really do not know and can't help much.
It does help to be well turned out at all the stages of the judging seminars..(even when they tell you otherwise) ........You are representing the AHS......
I hate to see a scruffy judge in the ring, no matter if the handlers are so.
I would not show my horse under someone who had been 'fast tracked'...sorry.
I need to have confidence in that person judging me....There are lots of judges who are not used much..... If judge 'A' keeps shetlands at home, this does not mean they will prefer shetlands in the showring?..everyone gets this wrong!
I presume Pat, you are talking mainly about ridden judges here?...can you see a fast tracked in-hand judge at a 'C' Show?
What will happen to this lovely breed in years to come?......help
Sue.....x
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 12:24:55 PM
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| It sounds like a complicated process, what exactly is involved in becoming a judge? Do you have horses to judge during training or is it all academic? If you are lucky enough to pass this assessment then do you have to honour a certain number of judging commitments per year? |
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LB
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 12:39:33 PM
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Hiya, i am new on this forum and thought i would add to this thread, i also went to a assesment day for new Ridden Judges and was well and truly put off for life, i wasnt accepted, and was told to gain more experience, well i am always willing to learn but, without blowing my own trumpet,I home produced a rather bright purebred stallion last season to qualify for HOYS, also to become Reserve BNC novice Ridden Stallion, I have qualified and competed at HOYS since the Arabs first started to compete there, I also home produced and own this seasons BNC Gelding Champion Fferzan, and a SE grey yearling colt MG Dubai, who was Reserve Junior Male Champion, at the Midland Group Arabian Festival on his first outing, plus groom for Mark Gamlin at all shows at home and Abroad. so everybody out there who has been put off going to these assessment days dont be detered by me im just st a loss as to what is classed as experience.x.
LB |
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Lynda
Platinum Member
England
1957 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 1:14:08 PM
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I agree with everything Pat says about the shortage of judges. What is even more difficult for the shows is if they want one judge to judge both the ridden and the in-hand sections. This is a rare breed!
Lynda |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 1:50:57 PM
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Lisa, it is not just 'theory', there are so many seminars to attend with written papers etc, also, you are 'watched' whilst the day is going on....it is everything about you that is being monitored on the day....as well as your abilty to judge conformation, appraise beauty, and understand type.
You need the confidence to run the ring, and the ability to be a politician and diplomat, ....above all...to be fair to everyone in that ring, and be HONEST.
Oh, and ignore any rude remarks you might hear about yourself!!
I am sure we need more judges, especially ridden ones, but why can't there be published for all to see...the number of shows each judge does every year?.....I feel judges, once on the panel, should 'pull their weight' and do a certain number of shows per year. Some get on the panel and seem to disappear....I do shows other than Arabian, and I feel 'do my bit'.......this should apply to all judges.
Fast Tracking onto the panel will take us back to the 'old days' where you just had to be a breeder to become a judge, even if you thought an Arab was a hamster!...by at least sitting exams and being judged by experienced judges should, and must give confidence to those who show under us?
Obviously the number ridden judges needs to be increased quickly, and bringing in judges from other panels should not be a problem, except, the ability of that person to identify Arabian type!....oh no not again.....
I would be angry if I thought other in-hand judges were being chosen with out going through the tortuous evaluation and assessment that I went through!
Sue.....x
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Edited by - SueB on 04 Nov 2003 3:53:33 PM |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 1:50:58 PM
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| Well at one show this season and I will not name the show or the judge I could not believe what I saw! The poor judge must have wondered what she had done to deserve being landed with a so called rider for the ridden classes. Basically the experienced judge who had judged some inhand classes earlier in the day also had to judge the ridden classes which she did from the ground, fine. All the competitors could have given her wonderful ridden shows no doubt but instead of this the show had supplied her with a sack of potatoes err I mean rider to assess the horses from on board as it were. Well the rider was lucky not to have hit the deck on a couple of occasions and what impression the judge got of the poor horses god only knows! I would say she was experienced enough to look past this but I can't imagine what was going through each competitors mind as they watched their horses being ridden? |
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k brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
810 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 2:24:07 PM
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I too feel that the selection process is a long winded operation. I have been attending seminars, probationing and judging locally since 2000. I have done everything requested,travelled hundreds of miles at my own expense and had good reports and feedback, but must say I find the experiences very negative and off putting rather than confidence building. I was originally trying for the ridden panel and have now been talked into sitting for the in-hand too due to the shortage of judges who are able to do both!. Many of the smaller, agricultural shows cannot afford to pay for both so we are at risk of loosing classes. It has got to the point where I have put it on hold as I have run out of enthusiasm, so I will just concentrate on producing my own for now! Perhaps the ahs just want to see how much staying power and commitment perspective judges have!
one day your a rooster the next a feather duster. |
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Nick
Gold Member
United Kingdom
887 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 3:04:51 PM
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As you can all appreciate i am limited to what i say being a Council member a member of the judges and activities and AHS panel judge this being a open forum but i would be only to glad for you to write or email me on oraelninio@aol.com and i will make sure your views are brought up through the correct channels.
On a personal note i had rejection and failures on my way to becoming a judge travelled hundreds of miles and worked very hard but it was character building and yes i thought others had a easier path than i did but stuck with it.
And yes i agree with SueB it is all about confidence and a self belief and a love for the job and a strong mind
Exit the Dragon |
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k brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
810 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 7:43:01 PM
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ooh nick ,feel like |I have just had my knuckles rapped! kirsty
one day your a rooster the next a feather duster. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 7:43:36 PM
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Hi Nick, I will certainly email you for my personal comments to be passed on. On the wider forum, what do people think about a two tier system?
As both a show organiser and wannabe judge, these are the problems.
In some areas too few judges, lack of choice, availability, or cost if travelling from farther afield.
Show may want to try out Arab classes, with someone with some knowledge of Arabs but hits stumbling block above. Result, no arab classes.
Could the AHS do a reduced affiliation fee, say a nominal £5 to the show to include championship rosettes if they are willing to take 'first stage probationers' as their judges.
A 'first stage probationer' judge should have attended at least 2 intermediate level courses, and be deemed suitable to progress after further experience, to be gained at a semi - affiliated show.
This show would not be able to hold qualifier classes, and the organisers should not expect entries of more than....(say, 30 horses) for the first level probationer to judge.
First level probationers may judge in pairs, so that more than one gains experience and has the 'back up' of another probationer to help build confidence without feeling under pressure from a qualified judge as happens with the current probationer system.
A first level probationer should judge no more than (4 to 6) semi affiliated shows before recieving more training from the AHS. They should keep a full log of their experiences, to be used as part of their continuing assessment.
Those of us running group shows have to grin and bear it, but if the AHS has a genuine desire to promote Arab showing on a wider basis, then modifications will have to be made.
Obviously schedules etc would have to clearly state that this is only a semi affiliated show, so that those competitors who don't want to bring their national champion don't have to!
This could prove an ideal arena for the many novices out there - who will not compete against the 'faces'.
And the cost saving to the show, potentially, if first level probationers were limited to a maximum expenses claim of ...(say £25 or the equivalent of £1 per horse for the single probationer or between the pair.)
Now - even if the AHS did do something this radical - would you compete under them to give them experience and support your local show? We do unaffiliated classes alongside the affiliated at our show with an unqualifed judge and although the classes are looking for something different, are well filled, and competitors have seemed happy with the results.
At present some small shows do put on classes,and rely on the local breeder to recommend someone to them to judge it. This way, the show would know that there is a person who had demonstrated committment and has had basic training to ensure some consistency of judging standards.
It could be a win-win situation, for potential judges and show organisers, and bottom of the line competitors can take comfort from knowing that the judge lacked experieince and their goose really is a swan. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 8:00:51 PM
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Hi Kirsty, could you fit in some unaffiliated judging for us at the group show next year. We are trying to expand the amateur and other interest classes, and need people like you!
It will probably be Northop again, not too far for you to come. (please, beg, grovel.....) |
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Varaina
Gold Member
United Kingdom
606 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 8:37:04 PM
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| As a Ridden judge and someone who is striving to get on the inhand panel i might just have my say. I have been on the panel for over 10 yrs now and bearing in mind i'm 33 it proves they do take younger judges, but beleive me i didn't just sail through. Iwent through the mill to get on the panel, I was rejected and had my nose put out of joint, as I felt as i'd been showing purebreds since i was 9, and judging unaffilliated since 16 I was quite capable of judging. But to be honest it did me alot of good being rejected as nick say it is character building and it certainly made me more determined and I learnt to look more at the horses and get my books out and relate faults. I have been on the Arab panel puk and highland pony panel as i said for over 10 years and believe me it is not an easy job so you need to be put through the mill on these courses you toughen you up and make sure to can cope and handle the hassle you get as a judge. Don't give up we all have to go through it!!!!! PS. I DON'T AGREE WITH FAST TRACKING JUDGES!!!!!!! |
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NPA Arabians
Moderator
United Kingdom
2980 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2003 : 10:39:15 PM
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Banging one's head against a brick wall springs to mind when discussing the AHS Judging courses.
With every other test, course, evaluating process whatever you wish to mention, somebody somewhere along the lines explains to you what is expected, and if you dont meet their expectations, they explain to you why!
I have been trying my hand at the procedure, - a very slow & quite expensive procedure (the courses are few & far between!)
I "passed" both my preliminary courses and was then "Invited" to attend an Intermediate, which i did, and they wrote to say i had been sucessful, and please attend another!
I then - twelve months later, as this was the next course! attended another, On the day at least one of the three "judges" said they were very pleased with me, and as long as i had passed my written (which i must admit is my worst aspect!) they were sure i would be invited onto another! - to which i replied i had already "passed" one so i expeected that if i was sucessful i would be Moving on! - Oh well fingers crossed for the written.
So i waited for my "letter" back it comes, Writen test "excellent" great I thought, But, my assessment of the horses was only "satisfactory" so please attend another course (hell - another twelve months or 24 depending on where in the country the next one is) - I then happened to bump into one of the "Judges" a few weeks later who asked how i had done, so diplomatically (difficult i know!) i said i had to do another, to which she said "oh dear you will have to brush up on your written! - so i explained that my written was excellent, but my assessment of the horses wasn't to which she was very suprised, and said that they had recommended that i had passed on the day!,
but it wasn't up to them!
How can somebody unknown, evaluate weather i could assess the horses or not when they wern't there?
So those of you that have been lucky enough to "pass" which bit do i brush up on?
Also i must admit to being slightly concerned at voicing my opinion, even here amongst friends, incase it blots my copy book!
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k brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
810 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 07:31:14 AM
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Hi pat, I could probably help you out next season, just email me nearer the time with more details. Marzookah@hotmail.com
one day your a rooster the next a feather duster. |
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suyents
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1651 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 10:42:52 AM
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Hi Pat,
Your comments, and many others, sound very familiar to me at least...MANY many years ago i had the desire to become a judge and attended one of their courses...at the end of the day we were all told to go away and look at some more horses...this was a farce, since nobody told us a)what we should be looking for and b) where we had gone wrong in their eyes...(i too hold up peter's book as a bible on conformation)..Back in those days(admittedly, when god was a boy) i learnt that most judges had had to go to at least three or four courses before being accepted...Since there was no teaching involved, and no correction either, i can only assume that the AHS hoped people would continue to make the same mistakes and continue to pay their money for the priviledge!
In my case on the day, i can only guess that my picking out a consistant conformational fault in the horses of our hostess who was well-known and a judge did nothing to endear me to the assessors...thank goodness. I decided then that i wasnt going to play the game, and have left the battlefield to you more resilient souls!
And i must add, why the hell should Nick have to worry about this being a public forum just because he IS a judge etc etc??? Dont members of the AHS have a right to speak plainly, even if they are a part of its machine? If being a council member means you cant speak plainly, then what sort of council do you belong to????
suyen |
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Nick
Gold Member
United Kingdom
887 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 6:17:17 PM
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Hi the only thing i want is a level playing field and have strived
for this end with out fear or favour and have put my head above the wall on many occasions and will keep doing so.
As a council member i have a responsibilty for correctness and have no reason to fuel the gossip machine PatW.W as the right idea and i look foward to talking at length to her.
Becoming a Judge should be a great honour and you are a ambassoder for the breed and i hope to encourage as many of you as i can to start the process do not give up remember when the going gets tough the tough get going.
Exit the Dragon |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 9:28:21 PM
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Suyen, you were not in disguise at the regional meeting were you? I heard all your comments about the same conformational defect ...almost your entire post word for word!
I feel so comforted not to be alone, and feel in good company with others who have also not yet made the grade, whatever that is!
Nick, are you part of the review of the selection procedure, because I could write a book on the present pitfalls.
And having been to so many studs to rip their beloved steeds to shreds, would be willing to open mine up to the same scrutiny. Now that would be a challenge for potential judges! Unrelated, English, Polish, Spanish and Egyptian bloodlines, and a whole variety of faults! |
Edited by - pat ww on 03 Nov 2003 9:35:27 PM |
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Nic
Silver Member
United Kingdom
337 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 9:44:03 PM
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I have attended both a pre-lim in-hand and ridden judging course and found them extremely interesting and spurred me to try to learn and watch more. It may though be a good few years before I try again as if none of you with much more experience have suceeded then I have no chance! I also had the opportunity of helping 'show' the horses at an Intermediate judging course and believe you me you can see the confident candidates a mile off!
On the subject of ridden judging - I think that we are lucky we don't have to be ridden assessed before we are accepted for the day as some of the horses we used were top class and I imagine the owners had no-idea who was going to be riding their horses.
Nic |
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Nick
Gold Member
United Kingdom
887 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2003 : 9:57:35 PM
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Hi Pat yes i am part of the review so the more people tell me the more informed decision i can reach and take your views foward.
The answer is do the correct thing not the popular thing do you agree Pat.
Exit the Dragon |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 01:37:18 AM
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hi Nick
the correct thing for me would be a structured program where we used set materials, eg we need to know rules on showing but everything in one document/ leaflet would be handy in advance.
To level the playing field we need to know passmarks, and our results. we need feed back on the day of the horse we have 'judged'. If we missed something we never get to know, so how do we develope our knowledge.
There will always be a subjective element, as several judges form their 'impression' of you.
If you are with 'mouthy' trainees, you often cannot have your say, and it is harder to judge with half a dozen other people getting in your way!
It should not be a competiton in which only 4 a year get through, it should be possible for everyone to attain, and in a reasonable time frame.
got to get our newlsetter out soon, so will send you a full proposal in the near future. |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 1:17:54 PM
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I think that some of our ridden judges should be 'encouraged' to be in-hand judges too.......they already have the experience of being in the ring alone, and have to evaluate the conformation of the horse anyway?....wonder if it might be an idea to put them through the final in-hand selection, on a yearly basis untill they pass?
At the smaller Arab shows we do have non panel judges judge, even around here, where we are over loaded with judges!! ....I see no problem with this if the entries still come in?
I do feel that some of the panel judges who are not so popular, should be used, these individuals have passed the selection process and deserve a chance? I know of two, who rarely get asked to judge anywhere?
I have always found County shows very generous with the travelling allowance paid, unfortunately it is the smaller group shows that struggle, and here, most judges I know, do take far less exspenses from these.
Sorry, still can't accept fast tracked judges, or even two!!
We need to feel confident in our judges abilty to stand alone, and be independent in their choice.
Best of luck Nick with this one!
Jayne, I can't see why you will blot your copy book here?.....this is what is needed, people who have the courage to speak out......surely this is a sign of someone who is independant, and believes in what he/she say's. I'm sure your few comments here, will be well forgot by your next seminar!!..I wish I could help you with some suggestions, but the judges course has to change every year, or we all would know the answers!....as Nick say's, just hang in there......
Sue...x |
Edited by - SueB on 04 Nov 2003 5:57:33 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 6:33:01 PM
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It seems to me that there are two main problems, firstly the process seems to be shrouded in secrecy and mystery and could do with being more open and visible, to both participants and ordinary members (who may gain a whole new perspective on the poor soul in the centre of the ring IF they appreciated how much effort and dedication it takes to get there  ) Secondly there are far too few courses, which in its self slows down the whole process. I think (and feel free to disagree) that you could create a "fast track" simply by reducing the length of time between courses without having to change the standards at all. Of course having more courses means having more owners willing to provide horses etc which is perhaps one of the main stumbling blocks at the moment.
Mike
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2003 : 8:20:50 PM
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Hi Sue, surely the point is that we SHOULD all know the answers! Setting different question papers in an exam in English you would not ask a maths question.
This is how the past set up has been perceived, by many many people I have met along the road to failure.
What has been lacking is a structured format to ensure everyone passes the course having achieved a standard knowledge base. If we knew in advance that our general horse knowledge should include structure of the horse and its effect on working life expectation, and had a RECOMMENDED text book where that knowledge if lacking could be found, it can only be an improvement.
I have done courses over about the past 8 years, not every year, and have seen tremendous differences in what was expected each time.
How can the status of the judges be respected when it is such a lottery on just what you are being tested on to proceed?
The AHS has some excellent teachers out there, to name just one, Peter Upton. Not all the judges who got roped in to taking the courses have his depth of knowledge, or maybe NOT THE ABILITY TO IMPART IT. They are giving their free time to do their bit, but its horses for courses, some cannot teach and cannot adequately explain the WHYs and Wherefores.
Some years there are vet lectures, some years not. What is needed is onsistency. A set syllabus, graded work load, and why does judging a class have to be done on one day, with a group?
When you reach the level to become a probationer, you spend the day in the ring with a single judge on a one to one. As we are all probably more able to attend our local regional or county shows, which have very experienced judges, why could we not do our practical assessments that way?
Half a dozen candidates could each judge a class on a one to one basis with the judge. Why have 6 of us running rings round one horse at a time at a stud? The 5 awaiting their individual turns at a show, could be seated near the stand-up area and make ringside notes on how they would have placed the other classes, to be submitted as coursework.
Surely someone is capable of devising a tick box system where candidates just mark the box against eg off set cannons if they see them? and mark excellent, good, acceptable, weak or unacceptible against the points system standards of head, neck, body, topline, legs, movement?
The standard argument for NOT letting more people through is to keep up the standards. Some of us would just like to know waht those standards are. Moving goal posts as described by some contributors is just not a professional approach to the selection procedure.
I have also heard that 'recommendations' are sent to someone else for a final decision, by the judges running the course! You cannot stop the accusations of 'face fitting' where this can happen, and candidates are inexplicably knocked back.
While some have a 'natural' eye for beauty, others need to develope this UNDER EXPERT GUIDANCE, which is not happening under thepresent selection procedure.
And yes, I could have bought a national show winner with what it has cost me so far!
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k brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
810 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2003 : 07:36:51 AM
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Hi pat, you could pass all the required exams and probationary appointments but the decision is made by ahs council.
one day your a rooster the next a feather duster. |
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