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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 8:50:50 PM
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Rhoni I don't think it's just racing Arabs, it's also the endurance Arabs and performance Arabs. They have the conformation for the stamina and ability but not the cosmetic finesse (like it or hate it) of the in-hand world. There is currently a crossover in the ridden ring at the moment which I find fascinating.
We have an Ahmoun daughter who is for sale but who would attract very few people, since she has never been successful in the in-hand show ring (never been tried!!). It is indeed a great shame as she's a lovely elegant, beautifully paced, horse with fab temprament and with all the pedigree she could want - but her head's a bit too plain for showing! What do you do? Is she rank or file?? |
Roseanne |
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rhoni
Gold Member
United Kingdom
910 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2006 : 9:42:16 PM
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| Perhaps it’s an inevitable part of high-level specialisations? I would hope always to be able to look at an Arab and straight away know it’s an Arab! I do believe there will always be a core of breeders who want to breed beautiful AND typey AND functional horses…I know I do. Roseanne, your mare sounds super and would probably do well in ridden showing? And don’t "they" say it’s easier to breed on a head in a generation than improve or correct conformation faults? I think that people who are only looking to the in-hand market are incredibly short-termist and hope that their impact on the breed is as superficial as their attitude!!! |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 12:52:34 AM
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"Pretty" is much easier to breed for than anything else, however even in-hand a correct horse with genuine presence and movement will beat a pretty head hands down every time. Only in photos and over a stable door does "pretty" win out
Regarding Amer (shown above) Umm Qarn will I believe be standing his son Nizam (winner of 13 races) next year. Nizam does have a French dam, but will (I assume) be more affordable than his sire.
Mike |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 06:58:09 AM
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Nick,
I think that's a really brilliant  idea of yours - to buy a breeding to a young stallion that you like when his stud fees are low or even before he has any stock on the ground, and then use it later. I had never ever considered this route! You've got me thinking!!
Jane
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 2:40:21 PM
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| Rhoni, I entirely agree with you. I have always been told by all the old grooms that you must get your confirmation and legs correct before 'putting on a head'. This I have tried to do with my offspring and think I have succeeded as most people say how well built my horses are, even non-arab, and that their heads are nice too. I admit that I started with a good mare and stallion. |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2006 : 4:46:15 PM
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Coo he is beautiful indeed Mike...
No question but he's an Arab -
and Rhoni, no question you'd look at Ahmouna and she's an Arab. |
Roseanne |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 11:14:33 AM
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thats the picture i first saw of him, and fell in love! Look at the power in him.
Well i have decided to be very adventorous(Sp) all being well with Zaqrah, my russian/bahraini mare, she will be bred to a straight egyptian stallion.
I have decided on a certain someone, they look to be a good match, both complementing each other, though on paper, it's never been done before.?
Will be very intresting and exciting to see what happens |
pagey |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2006 : 9:31:03 PM
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| I'd have thought that was the point and the fun if you have a single favourite mare or two and you're not on a mission either to win in the showring, or to further some deep, influential, fundamental ambition within classical Arabian breeding. |
Roseanne |
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Sundance
Racing Moderator
England
932 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 5:00:33 PM
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All,
Only just seen this topic so apologies for going back to the Amer line. It is interesting to see him described as a great beauty as I would have thought the showing world would view him as a bit plain in the head. I saw him race many years ago and thought he was stunning, very ethereal and breeding for racing I would cut off my right arm to use him but £8 k not a chance (unless one of those scratch cards pays out)! Having been priviliged enough to meet him in the flesh he also has the most charming temperament which his stock inherits, this is obviously another major plus point. I think it is a great tragedy of the breeding world that his son Mutabahi died before standing at stud, he was out of the Straight Russian mare Geran and would have surely made a substantial impact on the breeding world. He had looks, conformation and outstanding race record (won Group 1 Zabeel Stakes and Grp. 1 . Nizam will stand next year and my best mare Comete will be visiting.
As to what I look for when breeding - many things! All criteria has to be fulfilled if I am too a use a stallion. Conformation and pedigree must be good, a strong dam line imperative, and also a superior race record or performance history usually Grp. 1 level. The stallion also has to compliment the mare, Comete is a big girl, very thick set with plenty of bone due to her French bloodlines. I wouldn't cross her with a heavy set French stallion, I used Makzan because he is quite light framed and I thought the result would be somewhere between the two (only time will tell but am pleased with her colt so far).
I believe that breeding the best to the best is a mistake if you don't consider the overall conformational faults. As for lineage I am looking forward to a foal this year that is linebred to Trypolis (see my Nawarra article in latests Online Mag).
At the end of the day though we are merely playing with nature and hoping for the best and I guess thats why its so exciting, and when it all goes right rewarding!
Paul
Zayin Arabian Stud |
Paul
www.zayinarabianstud.co.uk |
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Emancy
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 3:22:40 PM
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I would only use a stallion I had seen in the flesh and had the opportunity to 'meet' i.e. found out for myself what his temperament was like or had seen him interacting with other horse/people on video.
I would then look at my mare's faults and pick a stallion who displayed corrections in these areas but at the same time looking at the bloodlines that I most admired.
Lastly, it's a bonus if you have the choice to use a stallion with all of the above who's competed well in hand and you know has at least been ridden in pleasure (not neccesarily at competition level).
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www.arabianstudfarms.com |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 3:53:59 PM
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Just to hark back to the Amer part. Mike and Paul you may be interested to know that Tersk are actually using Amer on one of their very best racing mares.
Nahodka (Drug x Nasechka) http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nahodka3
she is the dam of Nonius (by Nougatin) Russian Derby Winner. Her photo is on Events page - Kossack Open Day visit.
BUT not only does Nahodka have racing form she is quite stunning with lovely action too. I really hope this mating works well. Good move Tersk.
What do you think? |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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Sundance
Racing Moderator
England
932 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 09:28:08 AM
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Hi Jude,
That is very interesting to hear that Tersk have used Amer, will be very interesting to see what the cross produces. Amer is considered by most to be the Northern Dancer of Arabian racing (of course he has strong competition from Manganate & Dormane). I am lining up my mares to visit his son Nizam next year!
Also your foals look stunning and fillies too you must be over the moon!
Paul |
Paul
www.zayinarabianstud.co.uk |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 5:08:14 PM
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I select a stallion on looks and pedigree, has to have both, and whether he has what I want for the coming foal. He also must have a reasonable temperament as I really couldn't be bothered with a horse I didn't like. It is nice if you can see some of his offspring as well but without seeing the dam you have no idea whether the good/bad bits come from him or the mare.
I remember years ago talking with a friend who lived in a different part of the country and she said that this very popular stallion produced rather heavy offspring (she lived in Norfolk where the mares were mainly Crabbet) while I thought he produced rather weedy, light boned offspring! Same stallion, different types of mares.
Barbara |
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cassy
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3348 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2006 : 4:04:29 PM
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For me before i even look at stallion i want a horse with very good temperment and one that stamps his stock on all types of mare, to me temperment is far better than a moving machine or pretty face
I used WSA Charismma on my loan mare, before i even looked at him i looked at his stock, i also handled and walked him to meet the mares and also held a mare for covering with him, this stallion has a temperment second to none and all his babies look the same:), they also all have excellant temperments as does my colt foal
I look for pedigree and looks after i see what the horse produces as that pretty megga moving machine may produce far from ideal tempered and nice show stock, i love a pretty face but my stallion selection i always go for temperment |
Angie
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2006 : 09:19:10 AM
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I haven't been into this post for some time and would like to say how a I agree with Mike's comment on page 1 regarding horses such as Amer are not used by us in this country as he is promoted as a racehorse.
It seems to me that we place too much emphasis on show horses and many of thm do not come out under saddle in any way. This a shame as after all the Arab is probably the most versatile horse in the world. I have always based my choice of stallion on what would sujit my mares and on their perfomance in ridden disciplines and not just the showring.
Talking about racing I believe all the horses in Poland and Russia are tried out on the racecourse as youngsters. They must have had a reason for doing this. If you look back in the pedigrees of their Arabs you will find some the most wellknown sires have raced.
Although I have not bred many most of them have performed in some way. Jumped, dressage, showing under saddle and endurance. I would look for this potential in any horse I might be interested in buying or using even as a foal.
I wouldloved to have bred more foals from old mare but finances restricted this which is a shame as she has alsways produced the "goods".
I am having one last go with an ASH whose mother was by Ahmoun and I know that this particular bloodline works on her so hopefulpy I am not taking too big a risk. |
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Edited by - tamila on 06 May 2006 09:22:32 AM |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 3:24:42 PM
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Paul,
I've just picked up on your Amer thread about Mutabahi. What a great loss BUT I see he has a son listed Attaf out of Nashmiya (Sambist x Nevesta) What happened to him?????
Mutabahi's dam GERAN is a full sister to NIKEL - very small world!!!
Yes I'm over the moon with my foals and fillies too - just the icing on the cake. Hey if you think the Nikel filly will race, how about taking her into training!!!!! She has the best shoulder and boy can she lift those legs and MOVE |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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natntaz
Platinum Member
England
2919 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 11:03:09 PM
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| I would look at my mares bad points and then see how the stallion could improve my mare. I would never use a stallion just because it is bred by or because he was the fashionable one to use. I know what i like and what i would like the foal to turn out like, also one of the other main things is temprement. The other thing is ability to carry weight and be versatile it what it could do. |
   
Natalie Pix. Essex. Tariq ibn Radfan and Taroub |
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bexr
Gold Member
England
818 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 8:12:20 PM
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I too do alot of homework before i choose a stallion. As already said you need to totally objective of your mare, and i always try my best to never double up on a fault.I always look at confirmation, at the end of the day no matter what future is lined up for the foal,with out a good body and legs it is going to find life difficult when put under the stresses we expect of them.I do like a pretty head but not breed for 5/6 years and see how far left behind you become.My mare that is now 19 is considered plain nowadays but as a youngster was a sucessful show filly, as is my 30 year old mare who was BNC and included in the Crabbit Conference book. Just take a look at early 90's AHS mags, these where the height of fashion horses now classed as plain?
I look for a pedigree that would suit my mares and also watch what other sucessful studs are doing.I find it interesting to try and predict which direction they will go next and see if i'm right.
I do not breed to sell but i think if you do your homework you will breed something that is saleable and not end up on the auction scrap heap. |
Bex |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 8:56:18 PM
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Just caught up with this - Jane, what was your decision in the end? I must admit, given that I had a few mares available, in your position I would have tried the Russian stallion you mention with a mare that was strong where he wasn't in order to see what I could get. After all, if you don't try you will never know!
When it comes to chosing a stallion, I look at pedigree first, being in the lucky position of knowing what my mares' ancestors have produced for about 40 years. Thus I know what has worked in the past, and what complements them. This then narrows down my field of search as to which horses to look at in person. I then look at their offspring AND if possible at their sire/dam. Dr June had a theory that foals tended to resemble their grandsire/granddam more than the sire/dam, and from my own personal observations there does seem to be some truth in this.
I am not interested in breeding for fashion, as I am trying to preserve a particular dam line, so I stick with what I know will produce quality, rideable stock from this line.
I agree with Mike's observations about the difficulty of NOT breeding into a corner - but personally I would NOT go with some of Lady W's more radical solutions to this problem!!!!
Keren |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 3:00:12 PM
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Hi Keren,
I didn't use the stallion in the end last season - I chickened out 'cos of my personal comfort zone, he was phenotypically too far out of it!
And not wishing to have too many foals and with the chance of using Mike's lovely Classic Maidan (an SE) who is at the stud, i won't be doing so this year either. Maidan is being bred this season to one of my straight Russians and one of my GSB mares so the resulting foals should be very interesting. Mike's SE mare Razamzam is being bred to Narim, an interesting cross too, and in essence the other way round from the Maidan cross as far as bloodlines go.
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2007 : 4:36:41 PM
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I must admit that I too start with pedigree and then look at a shortlist of stallions on that basis. I am usually not only looking to minimise the mares faults but also to make sure I do not lose the traits I like about her - possibly even more than the former. (I often look for bloodline common denominators to assist the probability of positive results in the traits I want 3-6 generations back plus further).
Like Mike I do factor in the "not getting into a dead end" as breeding with 100% Crabbet is nearly as hard in the UK as breeding Straight Egyptian!
It is this limited bloodlines available in stallion options that is the bane of modern Straight anything breeders. Oh to be able to keep even 1 stallion let alone 10!!
What I would like to add is that stallion dominance, which has been mentioned earlier, is I feel overrated to a degree. I breed from mares with traits I like and do not want to use a stallion who swamps her contribution.
And for me the showring is really irrelevant. I started with Arabians because I liked them and continue to breed what I like (and what I like to ride) - I am a small breeder who is invariably breeding to keep not sell on. Admittedly I would not be able to keep colts but, as long as I am staying within functionally sound and generous natured horses, that colt will always find a happy home as a riding horse - to show or not. Alexia |
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wizzard
New Member
England
20 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 12:03:16 PM
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I would like to aggree with pretty much all you have said on this topic Mike. It is obvious that have a huge amount of knowledge and experience that goes hand in hand with your logic if only more enthusiasts had your approach towards breeding then the quality and the quantity of arabian horse would be very different today. I too am looking to chose a stallion for my (at the moment filly)and there are so many avenues to go down. I own a small number of horses and to have a limited amount of money i believe is go way lf learning more about the breed and the history of the arabian. As opposed been stacked with cash and maybe going for the lottery will a large number of mares. I don't mean this as a pop to breeders with many horses and lots of money because we all start somewhere as i am there right now. Many breeders i know have worked hard to get where they are now but the fundamental thing is that they have learnt so much and the results repeatedly show but there breeders out there that jump on the band wagon of trend and fashions of the arabian and sometimes without success thus causing a flood in the market.
Mark |
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bluehaven
Silver Member
Ireland
377 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2007 : 7:56:07 PM
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| What I would do is look at what the experts are breeding to,whether it be for show or performance.If I had a mare of similar bloodlines to one owned by Tersk for instance,I'd look at what bloodlines they'd put to similarly bred mares. |
If it aint breathing it aint important |
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