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T O P I C R E V I E W
sab2
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 7:33:21 PM Has anybody had anything to do with this , my friend has just had a horse diagnosed with it ?
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Pasha
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 8:56:24 PM Oh Pat know exactly how you feel! It is really crap!!!
I feed the sugar free polos - especially when they're on box rest they nerd a little Treat of something!
(((HUGS))) to all of us xxx
pat day
Posted - 24 Jan 2011 : 6:20:26 PMWell, we have cushings. I just did not hear it on the phone, I suspect, waiting only to hear the Insulin levels. Vet has asked lab to check again with reading being so high, and with how Meena seems in herself. To be on 1/2 tab per day for 6 weeks. Thats why the chasteberry was mentioned too.
I am at a loss at the minute what to expect, and how to manage it.
I have bought some sugar free polo,s today (0% sugar). Does anyone know if they are OK in moderation.?????
Hopefully will be able to go into in depth and learn in a couple of days. (Mum has been here ill, and been to-ing and fro-ing her to hospital for last week )
Just a bit fed up I.m afraid. We do our best and its not good enough. It Cuts!
moatside
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 4:44:11 PM Pat - Chasteberry (Agnus Castus) is a useful supplement for lamiprone or Cushings horses - a friend uses it on a B mare who was diagnosed with Cushings at 5 years old. Lots of info if you google it....
Mrs DJ
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 3:47:32 PM Hi Pasha
I know the Lo-Cal contains Yea-Sacc, but someone from the Metabolic Horse Group worked out the ratios for me, and recommended that I supplemented it as well. If I was feeding the Topspec balancer, I wouldn't need to, as that contains more Yea-Sacc than the Lo-Cal. It's all very confusing, and such a balancing act to get the diet right!! I'm just so glad all the helpful folk at Metabolic Horse are willing to share their knowledge and experience!
Pat - I give Badminton High Fibre Nuggets as a treat. My list classes them as something to be fed with caution, but she only gets a few, and not in the feed bucket. Pasha is probably right - one carrot a day is probably going to be minimal. Hope you get it sorted soonest
Pasha
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 3:05:08 PM Mrs DJ - Baileys Lo Cal already has Alltech Yea Sacc in it so no need to feed separately :D
Pat - the carrot debate is ongoing as yes they are high in sugar as a percentage of the carrot BUT it's not like feeding a sugar cube and 1 carrot per day per horse is minimal sugar! You have to make your own mind up on this!
Regarding what you can feed her because she's already lean? Personally I would give her non molasses sugar beet and hi Fi together x
pat day
Posted - 23 Jan 2011 : 2:54:30 PMHi Philippa,
Meena,s reading was 300. Which he said was high, but can be found to be when in the middle of an 'episode'.
I have just found the yahoo group, and applied to join. Hopefully I will be able to obtain the approved food list, and dietary advice that can be shared there too.
I am extremely worried about her because she is lean and not fat. She really cannot afford to lose weight. The only thing come up is a hardish crest on 1/3rd of her neck. The middle bit. It seems softer today, but is it my wishful thinking..... I dont know. She is in good spirits, barely noticeably lame, on 1/2 sachet of danolin a day, and 1ml sedolin before the others go out.
There are so many questions I want to ask, but will when I have got the full report tomorrow when I visit the vet.
Just a quick one though, what do you give as a treat on hi fi lite if not carrots?? She,s going to miss her carrot,s so, she wee,s in a bucket for me and expects her reward, as do all of them except Boneeta.
Sarah,
Will find out which test tomorrow and post. The more info for all of us to see the better.
Thanks so much for your support girls.
Mrs DJ
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 7:42:07 PM Hi, Pat
The Metabolic Horse group kindly sent me a list of 'safe' foods for horses with these problems. As sugar/starch free as possible is the way to go. Unfortunately, carrots, apples and root veg like swede have way more sugar and starch than people realise.
Mine is now on a diet of soaked hay, with one tiny feed a day consisting of Hi-Fi Lite, Baileys Lo-Cal, magnesium (really helps with the insulin), Vitamin E, salt and Yea-Sacc (prevents acid swings in the gut).
If it's Insulin resistance, then apparently diet and exercise are the key, once the lami is under control.
Obviously, medication is needed for more serious cases (eg. Metformin), but I was under the impression that Pergolide was only prescribed for horses with Cushings.
What were Meena's insulin levels? My mare's came out at 102.
Although her blood was taken when she had acute lami, and, from what I've read, the laminitis can cause insulin levels to rise to 300-400 , so I intend to get her tested again in a few weeks to find out how high her 'normal' level really is.
I actually went against the vets advice to give her Metformin - but I had been told by the vet that her insulin levels were 170, and then found out they were 102 when I insisted on having the Lab results on paper!
pat day
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 5:49:53 PMThanks so much Guys. Will question this on Monday.
Liz, I did not know that. Will look into it more.
Group Hug to you all.
Silver
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 1:28:20 PM Hi Pat sorry about your mare,but should you be feeding her carrots ,arn't they full of suger?
Jingo
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 11:57:30 AM Pat I agree with Pasha WHY would vet put her on pergolide for EMS when Metformin is the drug to reduce the glucose levels.
Once you get the levels back to normal and controllable with diet you would be able to stop the metformin.
So many horses being diagnosed with lami that are actually EMS - we are all learning to revisit our feeding regimes. Good luck Pat.
Pasha
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 10:34:23 PM Hi Pat, how old is Meena and did the vet do the fasting blood test for Insulin or a glucose loading test or just the ACTH? Would be surprised if they prescribed pergolide for EMS, that is normally for Cushings whereas Metformin is normally for EMS/IR
Just got my boys a bag of Hi Fi Mollasses Free as they're not keen on the Alfa A Mollasses Free and they are loving the straw he he... Shesky nearly snatches my hand off for his tablet in it!
Speedi Beet or Fast Fibre (any of the non molasses beet pulps) are fine for any Cushings or EMS horse as long as Fed in moderation of course - my two share a mug full (dry) between them - makes 5 mug fuels when soaked so seems like loads to them x
pat day
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 9:46:20 PMJust had a call from the vet, Meena,s bloods are back. Insulin level is high.!!!! So looks like EMS.
At present, she is on 1/2 sachet danolin, 1ml sedolin per day and will start peroglide(I think) on Monday.
She was fed haylage in winter, hay in summer, with Hi fi lite and a sprinkle of pasture mix and a bit of speedy beet, breakfast and tea time, hay in field in winter. She,s now in and on hay 3 times a day, hi fi lite, and a bit of speedy beat juice from the others to dampen. Carrots cut up on top. Meena is lean.... Not fat at all, she has always had a good neck, but has just produced a crest on part of her neck, sounds bizarre, but true.
Vet suggested chasteberry or something like, ???? as a supplement as maintenance when episode in control.???? I was trying to jot it down whilst on the phone so may have it wrong. Will know more on Monday when visit the vets.
We feel for yours that are suffering so.
Jingo
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 11:59:25 AM Bev our girl was on Metformin for about six months with no side effects. Once you manage to get the glucose levels back within the normal range the Metformin can be stopped.
I totally agree we are far too kind to our horses - even the feed companies recommendations are far too high for Arab horses. We have totally changed all our feeding regime. It's amazing how many horses we see in the show rings that are borderline obese so its a huge warning to all of us to be careful in future.
I find the SS Metaslim great - gives all the correct nutrients without piling on the weight. This along with pura beet and Hi Fi Light plus hay seems to be working - all we need now are a new set of feet!!!!
Good luck
Bev Parker
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 9:34:55 PM Punkrocker - so sorry to hear about your loss - it's a nightmare. So many horses with this problem. My gelding came down with it again in early December having been initially diagnosed with EMS 2 years ago. Like everyone else I have been so careful but failed to spot the signs early enough (fatty crest and fat pad above the tail). My vet and farrier have seen loads of cases of laminitis this winter - the cold weather must have something to do with it. So back to soaked hay (it really is the only answer for weight loss) and Metformin. He's had 6 weeks in his box - which he really doesn't mind as he has got used to being inside a lot). I'm going to try Metaslim when he's stable again, but actually probably no cheaper than Metaformin - does anyone know if there are long term problems with long term use of Metformin? Good luck everyone with your EMS horses - it feels like a constant battle.
punkrocker
Posted - 15 Jan 2011 : 10:49:18 PM Hi, Equine Metabolic Syndrome is a truly awful thing... I lost my beloved gelding a year on the 25th of Jan, I still cannot beleive it happened to him. My boy was only 6yrs and never sick or sorry, he presented with sudden onset of footpain(the vets thought was abcess) on the 9th of December and it was the most horrendous thing to see a perfectly healthy horse need 5 people to get him to his feet. He still managed to neigh to me as the vet nerve blocked him so we could get him out of his stable. (I will never never forget that) Doddson and Horrell ran an excellent seminar all over, and I'm sure they would advise you on your concerns. We are too good to our friends,and we do feed them too much, the equine metabolic web page is very good but the info came too late for my boy. Equine Metabolic Syndrome,the mere mention of it sends shivers down my spine..It has changed the whole way I feed now.Please watch what you feed, dont over feed the hay/haylage(weigh it if you can) and soak it,not too much grass, buy a tape measure , watch out for fattypads in odd places, above the eyes, on the back,also cresty necks and fat tails.Oh, the cold weather can set it off to.
Geena
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 8:36:00 PM Topspec top chop lite no sugar, no molasses, no preservatives. Google top spec. Zeb is in high risk bracket for laminitis so gets treated like he has it and Topspec people have been fab helping me with diet.
Fee
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 7:34:12 PM
Originally posted by loosefur
I would be wary of the Laminitis Trust stamp - many of the feeds stamped with their approval contain molasses... why feed molasses to a laminitic horse when you don't have to? There are plenty of feeds lower in sugar that just may not have paid the licence fee to get the LT stamp that are completely molasses free, like Fast Fibre
Re Fast Fibre I'd never heard of it but bought a bag when the feed store recommended it when they were out of Speedibeet and I'm well impressed. When it ran out and I had the choice of that and speedibeet again, I chose Fast Fibre again. I put more water in it than recommended as I only use it and used speedibeet to moisten the feeds, but I'm happier knowing their feeds are very high fibre and it's ready in 60 secs so I make it fresh every feed.
Fee
Mrs DJ
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 7:07:04 PM Just google the Metabolic Horse Group Pat.
I found them so helpful when my mare went down with lami in November, and blood tests showed her to have raised insulin levels (although that could have been partially due to the lami).
I too have been so careful. For years mine has been on restricted grazing, she's never had anything more than a handful of Happy Hoof with supplements, and still she got it
Sometimes it seems that no matter how careful you are, or what you do, you can't prevent it.
So many are succumbing this year, goodness knows why. And usually the ones that are most loved and cared for - I know people who more or less neglect their horses, just sling them in the field and let them get on with it, and their animals never seem to ail anything. Seems so unfair at times.
All the best to everyone who's horses are suffering from these metabolic problems.
pat day
Posted - 14 Jan 2011 : 6:27:26 PMCan someone pm me the metabolic group link please.
My beautiful Meena has been diagnosed with lami today. Symptoms mild. All mine are turned out only between 10am and 4 pm, summer and winter alike. Hay always in the field in winter. She is lean in my opinion, but vet says she,s fine. Blood taken for metabolic problem. I have been so careful.
sab2
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 5:08:36 PM Sadly Pam even soaked hay is no good for this little lady , the last time they tried it was when she had to have an operation on her leg they had to cancel the op and put her on haylage, as even soaking the hay had caused her to be poorly and under the vets advice she is no longer able to have it, but there has been some very helpful advice given thankyou everybody, more still very welcome.
lisa rachel
Posted - 13 Jan 2011 : 10:40:47 AM Loosefur, Pam you are right.
pam
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 9:58:53 PM I would also be wary of 'assuming' that because a feed is approved by the laminitis trust that its the only feeds suitable. A friend of mine who is an equine nutritionist explained the process for gaining approval - basically the feed company has to pay for the testing and its not cheap. Therefore its really only the mainstream feed companies that gain approval as they can afford the testing, the smaller companies feeds may be just as good, or even more suitable, but they simply cannot afford to play the marketing game. I think the metabolic group is a better bet for good feed advice. I have always believed in keeping it simple, soaked hay, plain chaff and a few hi fibre cubes along with metformin has worked wonders for my boy with EMS.
loosefur
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 6:41:50 PM I would be wary of the Laminitis Trust stamp - many of the feeds stamped with their approval contain molasses... why feed molasses to a laminitic horse when you don't have to? There are plenty of feeds lower in sugar that just may not have paid the licence fee to get the LT stamp that are completely molasses free, like Fast Fibre
Jingo
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 3:31:57 PM Janet I found speedibeet does have sugars in it( 5 - 8%) - so does kwikbeet( 5 - 8%).
Hi Fi Light is 5% sugar and 1.5% starch
Kazzy
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 2:08:19 PM I use speedi-beet and my lad loves it and beleive me he is the biggest fussiest eater you would ever wish to meet.
Try and get feed stuff that is approved only by the Laminitis Trust, there are other feeds on the market that say they are approved for Laminetics but are not approved by the Laminitis Trust!!
she wee,s in a bucket for me and expects her reward, as do all of them except Boneeta.
, so I intend to get her tested again in a few weeks to find out how high her 'normal' level really is.
- but I had been told by the vet that her insulin levels were 170, and then found out they were 102 when I insisted on having the Lab results on paper!