| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 7:33:21 PM
|
Has anybody had anything to do with this , my friend has just had a horse diagnosed with it ?
|
|
Report to moderator
|
|
|
loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 7:49:35 PM
|
Tell her to check out the Metabolic Horse Group on Yahoo - not allowed to post a link to it but if you google it you should find it. Lots of people on their with EMS horses.
Basically it's all about managing the diet, many have to be removed from grass altogether, or at the very least have their grazing heavily restricted and feeding extremely low sugar/starch feeds. It's perfectly possible to manage as long as you have the right information |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 9:43:58 PM
|
I can recommend the Metabolic Horse Group, too.
My mare came in with acute laminitis at the end of November. After blood tests, her insulin levels were found to be above normal levels.
The vet wanted to put her straight onto medication, but I wasn't happy with that (although I know it is necessary in some cases - ie Cushings) so I joined the group, and have had loads of advice about diet and management, supplements etc, from people who have been dealing with IR/EMS/Cushings for years, and have done much research into these problems. They have diet sheets available, so you know what are safe feeds for horses/ponies with these issues, and what should be avoided.
Very helpful people who are more than willing to share their knowledge of these problems. |
    |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 9:59:04 PM
|
| Mrs DJ how long was your horse lame for,this mare has been on Danilon for 2 weeks in the stable and very little sign of improvement she was not quite right for 2 weeks before that, thankyou so much for your replys. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 10:21:00 PM
|
Ha! Difficult one that!
She came in with lami on 24 Nov. Had Sedalin for 4 days, was on Danilon for 10 days. Has not had any pain medication since, but it was difficult to assess how soon she became fully sound, as we had all the snow and ice around, and she is really careful where she puts her feet anyway in treacherous conditions (thank goodness). I had her back out on limited turnout in the school after about 2 weeks because she was going stir crazy and stiffening up, after being on box rest.
However - I'd had x-rays done, which showed no rotation or damage to her feet.
She was fully sound last week when I had the farrier ( he says no sign of white line separation or tearing in the foot - if he hadn't seen her with lami, he wouldn't have known!!), has shown no sign of a relapse after trimming, and the farrier has recommended walking in hand for a week (weather permitting) and, if she stays sound, sees no reason why I shouldn't start riding her again. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2011 : 10:21:17 PM
|
What is she eating? Has the vet given her anything other than Danillon? I.e. Finadyne or Metacam, Sedalin or ACP - has she had x-rays?
|
    |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Valentine Arabians
Gold Member
United Kingdom
586 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 05:41:42 AM
|
We had a mini Shetland broodmare diagnosed with EMS at the end of 2009 and we were given the choice of medication or diet. We decided on the diet...1 slice of hay during the day, 1 slice at night, NO grass and lots of exercise. She wasn't too thrilled with the regime, but she is now as fit as a fiddle and as sound as a pound! She is now 18 but behaves like a 2 year old, although that might have something to do with her playmates...8 yr old American-bred gelding mini horse, a 13 yr old Shetland mare and her 2 yr old daughter.
|
Liz & Walter Downes
www.ValentineArabians.com
Lincolnshire |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 07:23:18 AM
|
| Thanks again everybody, no x rays yet, i dont know if she has had anything else yet Pasha i shall speak to them today again, i am sure she is on 13/14lbs of haylage a day( i think ) the vet has advised they feed her oat straw , they have been and bought some hifi as they cannot get straw she is still on boxrest as she is sore, she is a cobby type mare and they always watch her weight .I think the worry is that she has not come sound on the Danilon. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:23:28 AM
|
Haylage would be a worry for me - I would want her on 1.5-2% of her 'goal' weight on soaked hay only and a handful of hi fi or similar to take any meds/supplements in... I would also want her on a good tonic to help her body flush out any toxins.
Pasha has Cushings and IR, and Shesky although negative on all tests is very sensitive to sugar. It is very possible to get the weight off and the body back to a normal insulin state but ut takes hard work and dedication - the first few weeks are horrible but they soon get used to it! My boys can now happily tuck into large soaked haynets after a day out in a paddock but it was hard work getting there.
You will be lucky to get oat straw at the moment and I would be worried about impaction colic when on box rest to be honest as well, so probably not a bad thing! By suggesting it, the vet obviously thinks she needs to loose some weight! |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:27:06 AM
|
Forgot to say that excersise along with diet is key to managing EMS - obviously you cannot excersise them when they are lame, but once sound, even 15 mins lunging per day has been shown to be hugely beenficial (can't remember where I read it), but like us, they need to work a bit to keep everything working as it should  |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 11:28:13 AM
|
Just a quick point re haylage. If feeding hi fibre haylage (late cut) then the sugar content is lower than you would find in hay, because of the process it goes through.
My IR pony is fine on haylage. Oat straw added to it would be better, but I can't get hold of it for love nor money.... |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
badders
Bronze Member
England
169 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 12:20:10 PM
|
| We have a gelding with EMS. It was an incredibly long process to get him right. he was very close to being PTS as he had a massive rotation and drop of his pedal bone. Think vet said 30 degrees. stabled for months, then he started a drug from the Laminitis clinic called NoMetSyn. Brilliant stuff as well as diet. His insulin levels went from 140 plus to just over 20 within 3 weeks. then 4 weeks later they were 11 which was exactly within range. He is out for 6 to hours a day on grass, not alot and has had loads of remedial trimming at Endells in Salisbury. He has a heart bar shoe on the affected foot and built up with acrylic. He is bright and alert and much like his old self. he was only 4 when diagnosed. We should be having bloods this week again. Any more info PM me. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
suejs001
Bronze Member
England
200 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 1:24:18 PM
|
Sam has ems and has recently come down with laminitis again when I couldn't soak his hay at -12 and -8 during the day and obviously I couldn't work him and hey presto laminitis back again. It took me 5 1/2 months to get him right in 2010 and got it almost exactly the same time of year. I am devastated, I just don't know what to do. Regarding the haylage, is that horsehage? I thought hay would have been less sugar than that ... I could have fed him that instead when i couldnt soak and he may not have got lami back ..  |
Sue |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 1:46:59 PM
|
| It's not so much the sugar content of Haylage, but the fact that it's fermented and can cause an imbalance in the hind gut... toxidity in the hind gut is the largest cause of Laminitis. Some horses are absolutely fine on it and I have fed the High Fibre and Timothy Horse Hage in th past, but not sice Pasha had Laminitis... he has steamed hay and Shesky has soaked (even when it was freezing, the YO filled up Shesky's bin from his house and kept sloshing it throughtout the day so it didn't freeze up) |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jo-Anne
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 2:29:10 PM
|
| hi my pony has just been diagnosed with EMS we only new something was wrong 4 weeks ago when she seemed to be foot sore in the snow (she lives out 24/7) after 2 weeks brought her and she had laminitis brought on by the EMS she has now been in 2 weeks on 13lb haylage a day and 2pkts of danilon a day and her laminitis isn't an awful lot better she is still quite pottery on all 4 legs. We are now changing her on to hifi lite as recommended by the vet but are concerned about how to get the laminitis under control any help would be gratefully appreciated |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 5:07:15 PM
|
Hello and  , Jo-Anne is the owner of the horse i have posted about. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 5:07:30 PM
|
Jo-Anne as above I would take her off Haylage and put her onto soaked hay - if she is very overweight 1.5% of her 'goal' bodyweight or if she is ok, then 2%. As a guide, a 450Kg horse would need 6.75Kgs soaked hay to loose weight, so 14.88 lbs (or 9kgs/19.8lbs at 2% bodyweight). Obviously if you are feeding hard feed as well, then adjust the hay accordingly.
If you don't feed enough, the body holds onto everything, even the bad stuff. What you want to do with Lami is give enough good quality low starch and sugar fibre (i.e. soaked hay) to help the body function properly without adding to the toxicity levels.
As i've said before, a good tonic (like Global Herbs Restore) will do wonders and make her feel better too. I always feel soo sorry for them, not just because of their sore feet, but the fact they're locked up and their lovely food is taken away 
Danillon is ok, but there are stronger and better anti inflamatories for Lami, i.e. Metacam, so ask your vet if there is something better! ACP or Sedalin is also useful to keep them calm and I think it thins the blood a bit to aid with circulation and healing xxx |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 5:35:22 PM
|
I agree with Pasha. I've heard people soaking hayledge so that may be in option if you have lots of it.
Also, what sort of HiFi are you feeding?
The normal Hifi still has a fair amoutn of sugar in it because of the molasses. Even HiFi Lite has molasses in. The good news is that Dengie now have a totally molasses free HiFi.
|
    
Hampshire |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jo-Anne
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 6:03:11 PM
|
| hi thanks for your input unfotunatly even soaked hay believe it or not gives her a runny nose and congested lungs i checked on the dengie web site and there is virtually no difference in digestable energy if anything the mollases free is slightly higher in sugar. Not sure if just imagination but she did actually move tonight when asked so i could muck her out until now have had to work round her. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 9:06:17 PM
|
Hi Jo- Anne I appreciate what your saying but you need to change what you are doing as her current diet isn't working as she has Lami. I am sorry but there is no miracle cure so you do need to reassess what she is having if you want her to get over this and then remain Lami free. It's a bit of a nightmare for you as it wasn't as of she was on a particularly sugarlicious diet to start with so I can feel your frustration, but little changes really do make all the difference.
How long did you previously soak the hay for? Pasha had COPD and gets the snots very easily - his hay had to be soaked all day or all night and now he has steamed. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 9:24:20 PM
|
| I'm not an expert but what about hay replacer cubes? Spillers variety are apparently approved by the Laminitis Trust. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 11 Jan 2011 9:27:40 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 10:48:51 PM
|
Hi Jo-Anne
Jackie Taylor from the The Metabolic Horse Group sent me a very helpful list of diet recommendations for laminitics, and a list of feeds with the sugar and starch levels already assessed.
From what I've read, even some of the feeds that are supposed to be safe for laminitics can be higher in sugar and starch than are recommended. ( e.g. D&H Safe and Sound is actually 12% combined sugar and starch according to my list - classed as a feed to be used with caution ). For a feed to be safe, as I understand it, you need less than 10%, ideally.
I think even some hay replacer cubes may have more sugar and starch content than the recommended levels for laminitics. The Badminton High Fibre Complete Nuggets (partial hay replacer, according to the blurb) are actually 15.3% sugar/starch. |
|
Edited by - Mrs DJ on 11 Jan 2011 11:03:52 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
|
|
Jo-Anne
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 10:00:30 AM
|
| Hi pasha yes i agree changes need to be made which is why we have been changing her from haylage to hifi lite as told to by the vet today is the first day that she is totally on on hifi lite she is 14.1 conermarra X and is now on 6kg a day. I am now going to try and get hold of Jackie to see if she will send me a list of feeds recommended for EMS horses thank you everybody for your input any is welcome |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 10:13:19 AM
|
Sorry Jo-Anne I didn't realsie that - I thought the Hi Fi was her 'hard feed' ration.
Speedi-Beet (unmollassed sugar beet pulp) is also a great feed for horses with Metabolic Issues and is a lot cheaper than bags of Dengie! I think I paid £9 for my last bag and it's last forever and they LOVE it
Good luck with her - I hope she starts to feel better soon x |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 12:08:50 PM
|
I think once you can get their weight stablilised and their insulin/glucose levels back to normal - then maintaining this is reasonably easy!!!
After a six month struggle, one of our horses is on the road to recovery. Levels back to normal - we initially were on Metformin tabs/acp/bute - soaked hay, Simple Systems Metaslim/pura beet and hi fi light. Weight loss has been dramatic but now looking racing fit!!! but levels are now normal now just on Metslim/pura beet and hi fi light - no Metformin or acp and reduced bute. Hay is not top quality but no need to soak (2 nets per day) Feet have taken a battering but on the road to recovery.
So don't give up - its a hard slog but worth it in the end.
|
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
Equine Metabolic Syndrome
