| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Delyth |
Posted - 05 Feb 2010 : 9:02:04 PM
http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20100202/STEWART01/100201015
Always respect !! |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Roseanne |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 11:44:58 AM
This all brings about another question and that is, why people wouldn't be looking for the kind of stallion that has the best temperament all-round, and one that's ridden/shown under saddle happily throughout the covering season.
I recall Jean Peck telling me about how her lovely Dervatiw Gwyddion covered a mare practically between classes in the States! (Hope she doesn't mind me repeating this here - and correcting me if I have it slightly wrong. It went to show that he is a dream of a temperament as well as to ride and look at!) |
| Kazzy |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 10:06:03 AM
Pauline, Kazzy wasnt aggresive all the time infact when the mood took him he was and still is a very loving loyal horse, if he was lay down in his stable I could go in and lie next to him and he would cuddle me, much to the shock of other people who said I shouldnt treat himlike a puppy but like a horse.
But.... if the mood took him he was a handful and could turn aggresive, by that I mean at about 7 - 8 months old he had the tackle and didnt know what to do with it and could get very frustrated and become quite naughty which I was told by my vet it was due to the retained testicle that *Could* be producing more testostorone than normal, it doesnt happen all the time but in some cases it does.
Anyway, at 12 months old he was gelded and apart from a few days after castration he is perfectly ok.
Janet |
| LYNDILOU |
Posted - 15 Feb 2010 : 09:45:48 AM
yes I agree , all stallions should be ridden , unfortunately for mine , he is owned by an old crone who doesn't ride anymore, but he is perfectly safe to ride also . as with all things common sense should prevail, remember by far the most dangerous animal on this planet is man, and you can be killed by something as small as a mosquito
As with all things, use common sense .
my stallion is not unusual , there are many many like him. so no, this is not a personal crusade. 
 |
| lisa rachel |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 10:32:10 PM
Originally posted by MinHeOriginally posted by lisa rachel
BTW Keren,many of the nice Arab stallions I was refering to cover all summer and are not ridden,
Ideally, they should all be being ridden, IMO! But that of course is a different topic Keren
Oh Keren,ditto, don't get me started on that one, please!!!
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| MinHe |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 7:40:24 PM
Originally posted by lisa rachel
BTW Keren,many of the nice Arab stallions I was refering to cover all summer and are not ridden,
Ideally, they should all be being ridden, IMO! But that of course is a different topic
Keren |
| lisa rachel |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 7:35:14 PM
Originally posted by MinHe
.
In this country at least, very few Arab stallions live their lives solely as sex machines. Most have other work to do under saddle - which, as well as the millennia of selection for temperament the breed has undergone - helps give the horse a different (and potentially more balanced) perspective on life.
Keren
POTENTIALLY more balanced perspective?
FAR more balanced I would say and this is the crux of one of the issues under discussion here. If we agree that a ridden Arab stallion is 'more balanced', safer and easier to be around than a tb on a commercial stud, could it not then be argued that the Arab was better managed?
( Look I also work in the tb breeding industry as part of my job, so I understand the pressures of numbers of mares, short covering season, money etc etc.) But it does call into question why commercial tb studs should be held up as the pinnacle to which we should all aspire. (I am sorry but I don't think it is.)
Keren I do though take your general point, and Mr J's, whose blood is clearly running cold at what he sees as amateurism and complacency, but we are talking about different breeds under different management systems. At the end of the day, we all agree ALL horses can be (lethally) dangerous, it is good that Delyth has reminded us of this. If I choose to take a certain approach to the horses that I treat and it has worked for me for 20 years as a vet and all my life as a person, I have every right to stick with it as nobody's neck is on the line except my own , I will just have to share the same epitaph as Lynda if it comes to that!
BTW Keren,many of the nice Arab stallions I was refering to cover all summer and are not ridden, though your argument re slection for temperament holds of course.
BTW Mr J, if I have been defensive of Arabs it is because my experience with them has led me to hold them in the highest regard, forgive me I am an Arab nut!!
Cheers
Lisa
Edited to say Helen, our posts crossed, you are right probably best left now |
| Jamana |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 7:11:29 PM
Hi, this is Helen back now  Mr J has retired from AL now
Whilst Mr J is rather concieted and very opinionated (esp on this subject) he is a very accomplished Stallion Man and he has had extensive experience. FWIW he really does know what he is talking about.
Keren has very neatly made a very good point which I fully agree with. As Keren has posted further up Jamana-the-filly has been well brought up and has never been roughly treated or frightened by her handling. She does know her manners and she does respect your space. She has been raised in exactly the same way as Mr J and myself raise the TB's.
Personally I feel that this thread has come to it's natural conclusion and many things have been learnt along the way.
Helen  |
| MinHe |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 6:37:24 PM
I think the point Mr J is making is that the TB breeding industry (unlike other breeds of horse) has had as its main focus for at least a couple of hundred years the management of stallions who live almost exclusively for covering and little else, and therefore has developed highly specialised methods of handling such horses in the maximum safety - for all concerned.
In this country at least, very few Arab stallions live their lives solely as sex machines. Most have other work to do under saddle - which, as well as the millennia of selection for temperament the breed has undergone - helps give the horse a different (and potentially more balanced) perspective on life.
But as Delyth so graphically points out - even with the best management, the worst can still happen, and it can happen to YOU, without warning. I see Mr J's methods in the same light as wearing a seatbelt in a car - you might NOT be in an accident, but why ignore sensible precautions and take the risk? I see nothing abusive in what he has describes - and my stallions are some of the soppiest horses of ANY gender I have ever discovered (much more so than most mares!!!!).
FWIW, the worst injuries myself and my OH have suffered have been caused by other people's geldings or by mares (not intentionally), but much as I love my stallions (and anyone who has seen me with them will vouch for that), at the end of the day they are still - even in affection - capable of causing severe injury and I do not forget it.
Keren |
| lisa rachel |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 6:22:11 PM
Tomos, I agree with the points that you have made.
I have worked with racing tbs, Arabs and probably about 15 -20 other breeds of stallions, I fail to see why a tb is any more 'proper' than any other. I do agree there is a massive difference between a covering stallion and an entire who has not covered, and that the management on commercial tb studs does affect their behaviour but, again, many of the Arab stallions I am refering to are covering all season, not just 1 or 2 mares, and they are easy and pleasant to be around.
It may be worth remembering that the 'blood' in a tb 'blood' horse is Arab blood, maybe some of Eastern breeds Turkoman etc, but mostly Arab, on the sire side of course and the original dam lines, eg the Royal mares , old bald peg etc, famous mares, Arab mares.
The only reason I am saying this is that Arabs, while being intelligent and kind (in my opinion and experience), are actually sensitive,high couraged,athletic horses.
They have been bred for millenia as war horses. If anyone thinks they are any less of a 'proper' horse than a tb,(which is a derivative of the Arab in any case) it may be worth watching them tails up stretching to the finish after a 100 MILE race.
Delyth, you poor thing  , I had a similar though less severe experience as a child. You are right to post this as a warning and Mr J is right to say 'there but for the grace of god' because it CAN happen.
I have to say though experiences like yours with Sinan Bey are extremely rare and (in my experience) relationships like Lynda's with Charismma are extremely common ( Lynda, I mean this in a good way! and at least I spelt his name properly this time).
The only two people that I actually know personally who have contributed to this thread have both had similar wonderful close relationships with Arab stallions, who were covering stallions and not 'entire pets'. ( The same goes for me too.) So while it is true we must all be aware, for my part I agree with Tomos's posts entirely. That was not meant as a pun BTW!!
Cheers
Lisa
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| Jamana |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 5:46:34 PM
Mr J,Well well as I said before what funny things people do with young horse's hairdryers around new born foals!What ever is your mare doing when this is going on?When I read this whole thread it really does make me laugh, perhaps I've missed something in management of horses ..............as poster Mandy said this is not the TBA, you sure have spoken the truth Mandy,I cant think any member of that outfit who would manage their stock in such peculiar ways that some posters seem to! |
| Roseanne |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 4:03:37 PM
Very sobering account Delyth.
No one can say 'never'.
The Arab stallions I've ridden and handled have all been exceptional characters and temperaments but you do hear of horses that do just turn, who knows why? On one occasion I heard of it was a brain tumour, on another perhaps a misinterpretation of the human's behaviour/posture.
You always have to bear in mind that horses are horses, not people. But it's very difficult to persist in being wary of a horse such as the stallion I have here now - an absolute dreamboat in every way. Even the vet checked himself for undercarriage on first seeing him, because he was sceptical a stallion would behave so much like a dobbin. |
| Pauline |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 3:41:10 PM
RAFA
I have read your post on page one regarding colt foal born with one testicle.
I bought a yearling that never dropped his second testicle.He was operated on and gelded then the second one was found in the groin a few month later (no fault of the vet at the operation)
He was never never nasty in anyway. A gentle chap all the way.
Pauline |
| debs |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 3:05:23 PM
I have been reading this with interest, dont feel I could comment really as I have never had a stallion, or handled one , apart from 2 colts that were gelded shortly after I got them, to have a nice life with company.
Most of the stallions I have met have all been charming. But reading Delyths post makes you realise, it can happen out of the blue... of course no-one would want to think their best friend would do something like this...
It must have been awful for you, not only to have it happen, but obviously to lose your boy too. But there could be no going back, could there. |
| jaj |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 3:01:56 PM
Delyth  .
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| Delyth |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 2:33:05 PM
'There for the grace of God go I'.......I think that when I see a coffin !! Whilst I am truely thrilled that people have these magical relationships with their horses things do snap and dear god, let someone be there to protect you if it does.
I should have been alone that Saturday afternoon, the girls weren't due to come in but they'd come to collect something and stayed to help feed round. Terry was playing golf. I fetched Sinan Bey in like I had 100's of times before. We were walking across the yard towards his box like we had 100's of times before. I remember him spinning round facing me, maybe just 6 feet from his stable, I remember he had no ears !! I remember going down. I remember feeling almost suffocated. I tried to twist my body out of the way and I kicked and I screamed. I remember feeling his teeth glance off me and sickeningly I remember the noise he made. He had me pinned to the ground.
The rest is very much a blur. The girls threw bricks at him which hit him and took his attention away from me whilst I scrambled out of the way. I remember his lead rein hanging on the floor and my immediate reaction was that of worry incase he got wrapped up in it !! He walked into his box, we shut the door. He ate his tea, all was normal again !! Just minutes had past. I couldn't open my left eye, I looked as if I'd been in a boxing ring, my nose was bleeding, my lip split, I'd cracked a rib, very sore on one hip (later to bruise like hell) and a gash on my head with a huge lump. I went to the house, rang Terry explained what had happened and threw up everywhere. I began to shake violently and cry, no sob. I rang Peter & Mark who told me to send him straight to them. They just thought there was abit of exaggeration. He was there for sometime before it happened again. He'd been bathed and clipped went out in his field everyday. One day Mark let him loose as usual, turned to walk back to the gate and Sinan Bey grabbed him by the back of the neck and pinned him to the ground. Even after weeks they respected what HAD happened and there was always 2 of them with him. Peter was there and he got the horse off a very shaken Mark.
Sinan Bey was PTS. I know the life Sinan Bey had had. Very relaxed, out daily, wanted for nothing, he had a great routine and freedom and then snap !! It was a cruel end to a wasted life, believe me we all cried. It can happen to anyone at anytime. |
| Tomos |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 2:25:44 PM
Dear Mr J, I am not going to spend the day batting this back and fore, especially as by your last post you are clearly not prepared to accept any one else's point of view. I am merely making the point that this forum is not the TBA and here the majority of us have very different relationships with our horses, our horses are not cared for because of the financial value they hold, but the bond we have with them as our companions and riding horses.
Again, all horses have the potential to hurt us, but rarely do deliberately, it is far more frequently our misreading or inexperience that causes accidents.
I find as I get older, the more I learn, the less I know, conceit around horses is equally as dangerous as complacency.
Mandy
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| Jamana |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 1:25:37 PM
Mr J, I am conceited enough to regard 'proper stallions' as TB's within the racing industry., due to the level of care and management that goes hand in hand with horses of this value. Whilst it is true that the stallion is presented with mares ready to cover he always tries before covering. The stud I did the stallions on had the mares boarding there, and so the stallions would try some of whichever mares needed to be tried that day. Ending up with 'his' mare to be covered. We had a teaser stallion that did the majority of trying mares. This is the way that he learns that not ever mare is for him or ready to be covered. Some he has to try and then they walk away. Not all stallions will try many mares. Some will stand and try perhaps a dozen mares, but others have had enough after one or two.
The original point of this thread was drawing attention to the fact that a man had been killed whilst performing routine care of his stallion (feeding it in the field). What I found surprising was the response, rather than being 'there but for the grace of god go all of us who own/manage stallions' it was more,'Well if he needed to carry a stick it was bound to happen' or 'My stallion would NEVER do that'. The plain facts are, regardless of whatever else has been said on the previous 8 pages, that ANY stallion COULD inflict such injuries. Some are more likely to than others, the majority probably won't, but all are physically capable. |
| moatside |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 12:34:03 PM
My own experience of stallions is limited - however the stallions that I have been involved with (Sec A, Sec B and a couple of Arab) have all had wonerful, kind natures. All have been "proper" stallions in that they cover mares. I fully accept that TB studs are very commercial and as such very "different". The life of a "semi pet entire" has got to be preferable to life on a busy TB stud and surely that shows through in the nature of the stallion?
NB: I AM NOT saying that stallions cannot be dangerous or SHOULD NOT be treated with respect.
I believe that we should remember that ALL mares are as entire as stallions, we should treat/handle all horses with caution and respect. |
| Tomos |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 12:15:52 PM
I've been resisting the temptation to respond to this thread, but I am heartily sick of the British obsession with demonising stallions.
Firstly lets take commercial TB studs out of the equation, I'm sure the majority of people reading this topic are not trying to breed TB race horses, but actually want a family friend and riding horse so temperament is paramount.
I completely agree with you Mr J (would be nice to know your real name !) on many points and would also carry a stick when covering with the stallions you are descibing. I think and hope you would also agree that not only do TB stallions cover a much larger number of mares in a day, they are almost always presented with a mare that is ready to cover, in other words already teased so they expect to be able to cover immediatly, this I'm sure you would agree is a very unnatural course of events. I do however object to your constant use of the expression "proper stallions" this has different meanings for different people, I think you should subsitute "commercial" . This does not mean that people who spend years researching bloodlines, temperament and all the other genes that make up a well rounded horse of any breed are any less proper or any less professional, even if their stallions only cover 1 or 2 mares a year.
I am another who trusts my stallions, and I have no idea where my stick is, however trust doesn't equate to being complacent. ALL horses can be dangerous, I have never been injured by a stallion but have had some very close shaves with mares.
Just to put this in context fot the last 33 years I have kept between 1-4 stallions at any one time, and have been involved with TB and ID studs, my partner also worked with TBs for years, on board rather than on the ground..
I suggest if people want to see "proper stallions" then visit Portugal or Spain at fiesta time, where you will see large numbers of
stallions, being ridden, tied up outside bars, ridden by children etc etc, with no aggression, many of these horses are covering at home.
I hope Mr J that you take this response in the spirit it is intended,I am merely redressing the balance all experiences are different but are equally valid, I also know stallion men and women who work on commercial studs its tough, and can be dangerous if precautions are not taken, but please don't assume that it is the only way to work with stallions.
Mandy
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| barbara.gregory |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 11:51:35 AM
Very interesting thread.
I have never had a filly/mare who would kick. They have never even tried it and many of them have never even tried to nip. Perhaps I have been lucky but they have all been sweethearts and a firm "NO" and a push is all that is needed. I do find colts much more "challenging". My older stallion, Spanish Crusader, would turn his bum towards you and threaten to kick if you went in the box with him and his mum when he was a few months old, he was an unfriendly foal who didn't really like people. I did set him up but did nothing to provoke him, just made sure he did his "up knickers" as someone once put it! I got my husband to stand at the far side of him and walk along his side towards his back end while I stood on the near side; as he did his "up knickers" I gave him an almighty slap on the back of his thighs with the strap of a head collar. It really stings but can't hurt them and you can stay out of the way and if he kicks again repeat the slap. In his case he never kicked again. I certainly wouldn't have provoked him to kick but he was a great "threatener" and one day it would happen and I didn't want it to. They are so quick and kicks can be lethal.
Barbara |
| Jamana |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 10:45:39 AM
Mr.J,Look I sounds like you are missing the point,let me assure you all that professional stallion men DO NOT hit the horse every five seconds,but you do have to REMIND them who is the master. We do not have the attitude of lets show them who is the boss before they get us,only someone who is scared or a complete amateur would do this.
Stallions are just like any other horse as I have said some are well behaved some are complete nightmares but they all get respect as they can and some do attack for no reason,Some people on this thread seem to think this is not the case,well let them go and work on a leading stud and deal with proper stallions who are kept just for covering mares and nothing else,not semi pet entries who lead a fairly normal life these comparisons are like chalk and cheese |
| Theo |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 10:16:31 AM
Foal imprinting: I carry it out for 15 minutes once the foal hits the floor at foaling and then another 15 minute session within the next 10 days. I have discussed this at length with Monty and seems to concur that what Robert Miller DVM describes in his book and video on the subject seems a little excessive. I merely work on their 'vulnerable areas' to gain their acceptance that 'it's okay for human to touch!'- ie feet, mouth, face, ears, body... etc. IMHO think that breeders who clip out their foal's faces 'in a calm manner' is not a bad thing either. (I use a hair dryer so they get used to just the noise and it's a nice experience for the wet and cold newborn)
I does seem to set a precedence upon the way the young horse views their relationship with us humans. It sets up the 'behaviour boundaries' for what's right and wrong. Putting them in a better position for them to accept what we view as 'everyday life' in their lifetime. Hopefully not to give someone an excuse to 'take to the stick'.
Mill Reef: Funny he should be mentioned with a quirky trait, as years ago, I rescued a old TB gelding George (RIP) he came with no papers, and always suspected that he was of that lines... he managed to rip apart my thickest winter jacket one day whilst I went into feed him without reason or provocation... Mmmmm  But IMHO TB's seem to be more susceptible to 'quirkiness' as in their working life they're surrounded by little people who seem to have the 'I'll get you before you get me' attitude. Most owners don't seem to care as they pay their bills and are'nt in the front line!
Lindilou: Lynda, a true testimony for Charismma colts... Alfie, despite he's entire and 4 this year... he's a perfect gentleman to handle!
Razmoniet: 2 years ago this feisty colt greeted me with his teeth bared... Now I can muck him out with him in the stable and gives me kisses with a soft mouth... But does'nt mean I can drop my guard on him. It's taken me two years to get to this stage of handling and would probably take me just as long to get a saddle on him...!
Stick: I concur with most of your thoughts on carrying a stick, despite my teacher is strictly against the carrying of the item... but I view it as of 'guidance' rather than a 'weapon of punishment'. Sometimes as an etiquette in the ring you have to carry one... so, yes, I would carry one as an 'incase' rather than using it on the horse every 5 seconds... (besides, they'll get numb to it anyway!)IMHO whichever form of training... consistency IS the key, in order to get the same result... there's no right or wrong way. My worry is that one day the horse gets so desensitised to your stick that you might need a bigger and thicker one!
T x |
| Esther |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 07:49:07 AM
I must admit I'm a bit at the prospect of deliberately provoking foals - I've always found that quiet consistency pays dividends with a timely and firm and consistent response if/when they do push the boundaries. I'm a great fan of the premise that you have 3 seconds to react and then you completely forget it.
However, just had to comment on this:
I've never seen another horse deliberately bait another to provoke a violent reaction though
H constantly does this with Spud, especially if they're travelling together. He knows exactly where Spud's buttons are and then pushes them and pushes them and pushes them (ever so subtle, like) until Spud goes 'raaaaahhhhhhh!' and then H starts with the 'he's picking on me, it's soooo unfair.....'. It is very funny to watch |
| kimzi |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 9:16:35 PM
I think what this all comes down to is the fact of nature which is the stallion is dominant within the herd,it is likeley that he will see the owner/handler as part of the herd if he is offered the chance,it is up to the owner/handler to make sure that the boundaries are set in place whether it be by carrying a stick or piece of hosepipe or leaving it to chance and accepting the consequence should something go wrong. Stallions can appear cutesy especially if you are not involved hands on in their day to day activities, but the fact is it only takes one time for things to go wrong and they can't be reversed - it's your life live it as you see fit. I have a family,dependants and other animals to care for so i will always carry a stick and make sure the boys are bitted in company,my life is too precious to take a chance and i have learnt from experience with young colts that you can be too kind - just ask me to give you a broad grin if you see me at a show. |
| loosefur |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 9:06:44 PM
Really interesting thread. I have very limited experience of stallions. I did once work part time for a guy who bred Irish Drafts. He had a gorgeous dapple grey stallion who I would feed and muck out without too much problem but the poor horse was rarely turned out and as a result was pretty wired. I never 'handled' him as such myself and watched very nervously when the owner did ever bring him out of the stable and turn him out - there didn't seem much control there. I didn't work for him for long - he was not the sort of person who should have been keeping any horse, let alone a stallion This same bloke also went to Builth Wells whilst I was working for him and bought two Welsh D colt foals. One was very quiet and easy to handle. The other was a time bomb of testosterone, which I refused to handle as he would just attack. But again these poor foals were rarely turned out and probably weaned too early. This was all a good few years ago and I was pretty young - if I saw that same situation now I would tell this bloke he shouldn't be keeping pigeons, let alone horses.
As for trusting your own animals - all mine are extremely polite and don't bite or kick or barge... well at least that's what I thought until a couple of days ago. It's very easy to get complacent and lulled into a false sense of security when you only generally handle your own horses. But then something will happen that serves to remind you that at the end of the day they are half a ton of instinct that can do you damage whether they intend it or not. My mare lives out 24/7 with my 3 year old filly and my 22 year old gelding. I feed them all in the field - gelding first as he's boss, mare second and finally filly a good distance away from the mare. But the other day I must have been a bit lax and hadn't quite got the filly far enough away from the mare. As I put the filly's feed bucket down I heard a thundering of hooves behind me. I had no chance to get out of the way as my mare went for the filly. I was knocked flying. Mare went straight back to her feed but bless my filly - she crept up to me and sniffed my hair to make sure I was okay. I was fine - a bit bruised but more than anything felt lucky as if anything more serious had happened no one would have found me for a long time. It was served to remind me not to take my horses for granted - things can go wrong even with the best of temperaments. |
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