| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 09 Sep 2009 : 10:44:43 PM
CIGARETTE - dam of Bwlch Goldflake. Get the books out folks I can remember them talking about Goldflake and her dam...Thanks Sue
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bwlch+valentino |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 2:30:55 PM
Hi, Melynda, I have no records of the Welsh Stud book..so can not check the following
Still need a bit mor info of the following.
Mare Juliet 1901 - WSB 1132,Breeder Mr Davies...??
Owner Mr Walter Powell.
Section C of that year might be the right size??.
(Polly born 1897 was owned by Aaron Davies).
Any idea of an address for Mr Walter Powel... and if Mr Davies the breeder is Phillip Davies of Llandeilo..is is the correct one...
---------------------------------------------------------
Got no clue's about SPECIMEN or SAILOR, can you tell me wher these came from ????
Thanks Sue. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 23 Jun 2010 : 1:03:45 PM
Thanks for the info again Pelle, I'm back on the case.Phyllis Hinton's book was good and several bits of good info... she says that SIGORIETTE or Signorietta (its spelt two ways in this book), was the flapping pony and believed to be TB x Welsh, and that Cigarette was a Part Bred Arab, leaving her sire to be Arab??. There is also a bit to confirm that Sahara was in Carmarthenshire and used by the locals, so.....just maybe SAHARA was Cigarette's sire...
Does anyone know how I can find out what stock are recorded to be sired by Sahara....please.. around the 1920's need them all...
Thanks Sue
Also need any more info on this Welsh cross bred ?? mare under 13.2h and named SIGORIETTI..
Can anyone tell me if Mrs Phyllis Hinton is still about, she used to be editor to H & H in the old days.. and wrote her pony book in 1970-1971..
Thank You... Pelle how many can you find sired in UK by Sahara???????
and can you go back to your first post here, and alter the year to 1920 ????? ( Not 1940??)
Melynda, Please note/check, I think that Goldflake 1927, was not recorded in the WSB Vol.34 -1950 to 1951, untill many years after her birth.(poss.in line with her changing hands and having Bwlch adding to her name).
We are now after anything on Sigorietti, a TB/Welsh cross. and possible the flapping pony of 13.2hh.
Thanks.
Sue
|
| Pelle |
Posted - 16 Jun 2010 : 7:43:43 PM
Silverdale Bowtint was a chestnut Polo Pony stallion standing 15 hands high foaled in 1923 and bred by Mr Herbert Bright of the Silverdale stud. Mr Llewellyn Richards had previously purchased Silverdale Loyality(foaled in 1923) by Prince Friarstown out of Silvery II from mr Bright and was offered Bowtint very cheaply after he got cast in his box at the Royal show.
Siulverdale Bowtint was sired by Cherry Tint (GSB, a very succcessful Polo Pony sire who had been exported to the argentine) and Bowtints dam was Bowery(GSB) a wellknown mare who had won the Polo Pony progeny competition at the Polo Pony Show three times.
Bowetint himself had won a first prize at The royal Agricultural Soc. of England Show and after a few years at Criban became perfectly sound and was sold to Mr Kiddie of South Africa.
Mr Richards later had other Silverdale stallions at Criban, namely Silverdale Tarragon and Silverdale Aquilla and also Criban Loyalist a bay 13 hh stallion son of Silverdale Loality out of Criban Harpist. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 7:46:40 PM
Hi Melynda, My thoughts too. I think we have already been searching for sire's in the area that Mr P Davies lived, ie: LLandilo.
We already know that Meteoric was HIS stallion for a couple of years around the right time.
So just wondering who else was there??? and any Grey Arab in the area at the right time to cover Cigarette (the Grey 13.1h flapping pony). As Cigarette was supposed to be a Part Bred Arab, and the dam was by a TB, out of a Welsh pony, that would leave Cigarette's sire to be an Arab. Sahara was in Carmathanshire, he's a grey and was well used by the Welsh, Mrs Inge took several mares to him.
I think if someone can check the Welsh Stud Book they will find that Goldflake was not registered untill Mrs Pennall purchased her in 1931, and she was recorded as Bwlch Goldflake, gaining Mrs Pennells Bwlch prefix. When in fact the mare waa known as Goldflake (only). also, by this time Mr P Davies had died and was recorded as Late.
If Cigarette was a legand in the Flapping world in South Wales, I wonder why we have not been able to trace her from this.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Melynda, Do you know of anyway to trace any recorded coverings by the imported Arab Stallions that stood in that area, Llandilo or near around that time.( Mrs Vaughan Pryce Rice had two Arab stallions Corncob & Puddumtree), both imports and both around that time and she lived in Llandovery), how many mor were there and what stock have they had.
Just remember that Mrs Pennell would have been doing the same sort of enquiries after purchasing Goldflake in 1931, I guess.
Wynn Davies has already said he thought the Brown mare was too big and the wrong colour.
I don't know anyone (except the NPS) who has those early stud books and any way to check what foals were born by any of those stallions in the area, around that time..??? any clue's anyone....
Pelle, Can you remind me which Cherry?? Tint ???????/ Silverdale ??? horse was cast at the Royal and went to live in wales.. before his export... please. Was it the horse that Mrs Pennell used on Goldflake 1927? to produce Bwlch Goldflake 1940.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bwlch+goldflake2
Still on the case.
Thanks a lot.
Sue
|
| Melynda |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 5:47:05 PM
I think it would be interesting to find out a bit more about this Cigarette's sire Terrington D'Devil as he was a Hackney (No 9936).
It would also be interesting to find out a bit more about Juliet's sire Specimen and grand sire Sailor in case they are old Polo Pony sires?
There are loads of Polo ponies listed in the Welsh Stud Book Indexes, the names Rosewater, Shy Boy, Tyrant, Vibration etc are cropping up. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 14 Jun 2010 : 2:39:24 PM
Hi Melynda, Glad to see your still on the case. I think that the Sporthorse and the WSB 1-XVII and not the Cigarette we are after, this one is Brown, Sec.D and too big to be our flapping pony from South Wales fame.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10626472
Cigarette in WSB Index I-XVII.
We are after a 13.1h Grey mare,who's dam was said to be cross TB x Welsh.
Mr P. Davies,the breeder of Goldflake 1927, lived at Banc y Berwyn, Llandilo, when this pony was bred..Her name changed and the Bwlch was added, after Mrs Pennell purchased her in 1931.
If anyone has the Welsh Stud books and can check out the entry for Bwlch Goldflake - 1927, to see what date she was entered in the welsh stud book..
and also
Look at the Brown mare, Cigarette, mentioned above in Melynda's post.
Also, If anyone has any information on the mare Juliet 1901 - WSB 1132,Breeder Mr Davies...??
Owner Mr Walter Powell.
That might be helpful.
Thanks Folks, your help is much appreciated..
Cheers Sue |
| Melynda |
Posted - 10 Jun 2010 : 11:55:13 PM
Digging up an old thread here.
Found a Cigarette in WSB Index I-XVII.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10626472
She was bred by a Mr W. Powell but her dam was bred by a late Mr Davies, could that have any connection to the Davies mentioned earlier?
Her entry is in WSB Vol. XI if anyone got it to check her details out.
Colour doesn't fit unless she went grey. Haven't found anything on her sire yet. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 26 Dec 2009 : 6:37:44 PM
4206 WOODBINE - 1918.Brown Mare.
Leaving the link to the above mare and her offsping ELITE.
Elite is by COLLIER, Collier was shown Winner at London Spring Show 1929??. Owner at that time by Mrs Davies Cook -Mold Nth. Wales.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=ELITE54&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
Mrs P Davies Cooke also owned the stallion AVIATOR in 1923.
I know believe that there is NO link in family between the Landeilo Phillip Davies and the Mold Cooke Davies... OK |
| Melynda |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 6:32:36 PM
According to Index of Welsh Stud Books;
Bwlch Goldflake 562-F.S.
Chestnut born 1927, Section B, WSB Vol XXXIV, Breeder; The late P. Davies, By Meteoric (T.B), Ex Cigarette
Extract from Champion Horses & Ponies by Pamela Macgregor-Morris (1988)
"Elinora Maria (Nell) Gwynne Holford was born at Bwlch, a small village on the hills of Breconshire...was forced to leave her lovely home....she moved her stud to her mother's home, Hartbury House.
When she married Leslie Weaver, a horse dealer in partnership with the late Captain Andrew MacIlwaine until he went to live in Ireland, her life became all hunters instead of ponies. But she started again with ponies by chance when, driving with her husband past Jack Castle's farm in Oxfordshire, she spotted a chestnut mare in a field. This was in 1931 and the mare was Goldflake, who later achieved fame as the dam of the great pony stallion, Bwlch Valentino. By Meteoric (a son of the Derby winner Sunstar), she was out of the flapping pony Cigarette, who was a legend throughout South Wales. Only 13hh, she was never beaten at her height and won many races in Camarthenshire up to 14hands 2in.
Goldflake had been purchased with a draft of cattle at Llandilo and Nell bought her for £35. She had inherited her mother's wonderful movement and won a great deal, including at Olympia in 1934, and was champion at the Royal for Mrs Darby. Two years later she fell into bad hands and Nell was able to buy her back at Tattersalls for 100 guineas. She put her to stud during the war, when she lived at Crickhowell and ran the Brecon branch of the SSAFA.
From then Nell bred Welsh ponies, and later riding ponies, including the legendary Bwlch Valentino, by Valentine. Not wanting the trouble a stallion entails, she sold him as a 4-year-old to Mr Vivian Eckley,......" |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 1:44:50 PM
Thanks Pelle, Your post is on its way today, might be as many as 5 days.
We think that both Cigarette(is Not reg.in WSB and stands more like 13.1hh and is Grey)and both Cigarete and her foal Goldflake were with Mr P.Jones, recorded in the WSB as Bwlch Goldflake (WSB Vol.34 -1950 to 1951)the breeder was recorded as the late Mr P Davies, Banc y Berllan, Llandilo))so it looks like they could have both been with Mr Davies,the breeder, prior to there sale( the sale of both of these ponies may had coinsided with Mr Davies's death (thats just what I think). and
I even thought that maybe the cattle and the pony had gone to a local auction market in Llandlio or poss a farm sale and Jack Castle the dealer, bought at least Goldflake (was 13.2hh) from there LLandeilo.
So can anyone tell us where the Thoroughbred stallion, who was only 15hh, Meteoric - 1920 (Sunstar/Flechette)was stationed and where was he standing ???? or was he HIS and was he in that area (Llandilo) at that time 1920 30'a ish). HE WAS STANDING IN CAMARTHENSHIRE FOR BOTH SEASONS 1926 and 1927, WHEN CIGARETTE WOULD HAVE HAD TO BE COVERED TO PRODUCE GOLDFLAKE, so that fits in nicely. Meteoric won the Premiun and he was on offer at stud for a really small fee. HIS..
The other Cigarette mentioned earlier, a bay,foaled in 1909 and standing 14.1hh and registered in WSB, Vol XI and bred by Walter Powell, Clyro, is definitely a different mare, and not the one we are after.
Pelle, I think at this stage it would be good if you managed to find the listing of the Rad.Polo Pony Co.Sale info or the Hurlaston Listings. Maybe Cigarette changed hands there...if she was born by then.
I'm still having difficulty finding any records of the pony flapping in Wales in the 1920's, if anyone has any idea how to get this info, please let me know...Dormouse any help with the book side of this would be great..Looking for Cigarettes flapping results...
Thanks folks for all you help so far.
Sue |
| Pelle |
Posted - 03 Dec 2009 : 10:50:43 AM
My mother has found a book called *British Native Ponies and their crosses* by Phyllis Hinton printed in 1971.
I quote :Bwlch Goldflake , was by the Thoroughbred Meteoric, out of a partbred arab mare Cigarette, whose dam Sigorietti was believed to be a Thoroughbred-Welsh cross who in her day won many flapping races for ponies under 13.2 h.h. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 30 Nov 2009 : 9:19:55 PM
Thanks Pelle,will look out for the poste,Your working well, Do you think the first Russell was the jockey and we know Mrs A was owner/breeder. Does it record SilverSprays age for the class??? and does it have a space between the Silver and the Spray or is it linked together????. Wonder where they got the mare from???, I feel were are very close with this one now...
and do you Fancy a swop with PBAR IV for vol.X, let me know, I guess these are out of print for good now.
Brill job so far Bia & Pelle.
PS. Who was it who said that a German Mag had done an article on Cigarette and identified Sigoriette?? on the dams side...????????
PPS. Chilworth & Chertsey are both in Surrey.
Cheers Sue |
| Pelle |
Posted - 30 Nov 2009 : 7:45:29 PM
Hi Sue, have sent copies of NPS XX to you this morning.
Silverspray in 1928 and 1929 London show was exhibited by Mrs Mrs P.H. Russell, The Meadows, Chertsey in all classes.
In PBA vol IV Valentine and Silver Jubilee II (offspring of Silverspray)is bred and owned by Mrs A. S. Russell, Longfrey, Chilworth, Guildford, Surrey. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 30 Nov 2009 : 12:16:10 PM
Hi julie, This is how far we've got to now. Someone has already mentioned an article in a German Mag that said that Cigarette had this TB(Sigariette)in her dams line. I agree be interesting to know which sire she was by and the Welsh side??? and what colour she was( that is confirm she was grey and 13.1hh) and maybe a year of birth or near.that would help us.
We are also after the breeding and names of the Sire and Dam for SILVERSPRAY.... she was GREY and may also have an ARAB sire...a name would be good,there were not so many Arabs at stud ion the 1920 ies.. we know that when she bred Valentine, she was with Bred by Mrs A.S Russell, but we don't know anything else and any information on this mare would help us in our search to complete the pedigree. We do know that this same owner used the stallion Malice at least a couple of times. and we do know that Silverspray was at the London Show in 1928 & 1929. if they have any info about this famous mare or if anyone has the Show cataloge for those years and can add any more info..Please.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=VALENTINE11&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
Cheers
Sue - rosyrider@dsl.pipex.com
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bwlch+valentino
------------------------------------------------------------
Ref.SILVERSPRAY.
Still searching for this GREY mare and information of her breeding and existance in the 1920 ies???, We believe she was bred and owned by Mrs A S Russell, a NPS member in 1928,and who lived at that time at Longfrey, Chilworth, Near Guildford, Surrey. The following entries are all things that need looking at and into, so if anyone can add to the notes and search for this half bred mare, that was at the London Show in 1928. and might be recorded as a polo pony
and who bred some of the most famous of Riding Pony lines ever known in this country.
Thanks in advance.
Sue (14 November 2009)
Silverspray (NPSB approved mare register p388. Has anyone got this edition and can they tell us what is says about this mare please and if there is a photo of her in this NPSB.
still hoping to see this picture of Silverspray... and Silverspray was at the London Show in 1928 & 1929, Silverdale Aquatint was there in 1928 (NPS London Spring show).
Siverspray dam of Valentine I (PBA IV) 1933 grey colt by Malice (TB imp GSB vol 26 p 1255)
also dam of Silver Jubilee II (PBA IV) 1935 chestnut filly by Malice.
owner/breeder Mrs Russel.
Silverspray London Show 1928
Ball and Basket comp. for Ladies only, equal third
Musical chairs for Ladies only, winner
London Show 1929
Ball and Basket comp. for ladies only, second
Musical chairs for ladies only, winner.
Who was riding her and who was her owner????..at that time. |
| easyrider |
Posted - 29 Nov 2009 : 10:52:00 PM
RR, this is the repaly i have had re cigarette, i have goen back to ask re the father...hope this helps a bit
Hi Julie thank you for your email.Valentino's mother was Bwlch Goldflake she was a riding pony by meteoric a thorouhbred stallion,and she was out of Cigarette a racing pony whose mother was Sigoriette a T/bred cross welsh mare.Val's father was Valentine NPS supplement 1934,he was by Malice 1371 nps a polo pony,and out of Silver Spray who was arab/T/bred.
hope this is what you wanted if not let me know.Good to know you have a fingerprint boy.
Best Wishes
Sue. |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 26 Nov 2009 : 10:38:29 AM
Hi Pelle, Good to hear from you. Will look forward to seeing some of your Mother & Gran Mothers horsey pictures. I think the bits were working on at the moment are from the years between when you Gran mother was stationed in Poona and before the family moved back to Devon...???
The P Davies thing relating to Cigarette, Mr Phillip Davies was living in Llandeilo?? when he had the two ponies, Cigarette and her filly Goldflake.
and I'm still not sure if the Mold address has anything to do with the same Davies family from Llandeilo??. The farm was sold and the ponies and cattle might have gone to Oxford to the dealer.
All need to be confirmed.
Pelle, I did think that it was interesting that you've turned up that Mrs Davies Cooke had the stallion, Prince Friarstown, (small world), the sire of Silverdale Loyalty and this is the stallion that was used to breed Bwlch Goldflake II 1940 (bred by Mrs Nell Pannel. Now that turns up another question.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=BWLCH+GOLDFLAKE2&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
Pelle, I see you have the NPS vol XX, is it in english??
as I have the NPS vols. XXII & XXIII, wonder if we acn work something out..a bit of a share maybe...email me and let me know what you think...
Also, Do you have the register with the Silverspray info in.....as I'd like to know what it says....if there is any chance you could copy it for me....
Thnaks Sue
|
| Melynda |
Posted - 25 Nov 2009 : 10:04:40 PM
Duktigt av din mamma!
Well done by your mum! (For the none swedish speaking people on this website.)
If you need any help to load photos up to the Sport Horse Database feel free to email me. |
| Pelle |
Posted - 25 Nov 2009 : 6:29:32 PM
My mother has at last learned how to use her computer(at the age of 81), and she will try to scan all our photos from my great grandmother( 4 very very big boxes)( Poona 1891)until the family returned to England after WWII. We will try to make a home side with photos of arabs/barbs and another polo/ridingponies. As soon as the the homeside is ok, I hope all members here can have a look and see if they can reconice any of the old photos. |
| Pelle |
Posted - 25 Nov 2009 : 6:01:22 PM
In 1930 NPS vol XX
nmembers
Davies, mrs Winifred.A. The vicarage, Sutton -on -the -Forest ,
York. June 1909
Davies-Cooke, P.T. Gwysany, Mold, north Wales,
Davies-Cooke, Mrs ., Gwysany, Mold, north wales.
no prod. registed in vol XX,
but at Hurlingham Club show , June 13, 1930, in class
* Heavyweight Poloponies suitable for Players riding 14 stone and upwards* owner/breeder Mrts Davies-Cooke,place 8
Venus 1925, grey mare, 14,1, 7/8 hh
by Son of Love 1681 (GSB XXV p 516)
ex Fat Mary
by Child of the Islands II (by Child of the Islands (winner at calcutta)arab-bred stallon 14.1 hh, greyroan.
|
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 21 Nov 2009 : 11:22:42 AM
Keep it coming.
Pelle, What other Polo ponies have you got in the 1930 stud records???, and I'm wondering now if Mrs P Davies might have moved to Mold, after Mr P Davies death ( in Lladeilo)...
Are there any ponies registered/bred by Mrs P Davies...that you can spot.??
Melynda, Any more on Meteoric 1920, I was wondering where he was stationed at stud, and what other offsprings there might be.(any any idea what size he was/colour.
Thanks
Sue
|
| easyrider |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 5:56:23 PM
RR...i too have been fasinated as well!! my pony is a cusop offspring and even though hes not the best example i have on several occasions been asked without promting if he is a 'cusop' its surprised me how easily and expert will know. 'Very spirited breeding but once you have one in your heart they will give you much pleasure' was a judges comment to me
valentino and zephyr are great grand parents of my horse
i wrote to both the breeder of my horses mare and the stallion and both were very helpful sending me photos, i have enjoyed searching it out. Prompted by your thread i have emailed the breeders of valentino to see if anymore info can be obtained about Cigarette as my tree has reached a full stop there, i will update you if i hear anything |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 2:38:02 PM
Hi easyrider, This is the reason for my interest(link below). I love the whole Valentino, Zephyr, Wild Fire, North Wind ponies and would'nt it be nice to complete the missing gaps in this pedigree and line. In the 1960ies I went to help out at Twylands Stud and met lots of this family line. Lovley ponies lovely times...you'll have me and Nimlat in tears. Have you seen the photos's of Zephyr on the other posting.
The team are already breaking ground on this line, back to the turn of the century.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/floret8
Sue |
| easyrider |
Posted - 20 Nov 2009 : 2:02:42 PM
i am interested in this bloodline too as i have a gelding who comes down this line, can i ask why you are? |
| Rozy Rider |
Posted - 26 Oct 2009 : 11:28:24 AM
I was also interested to see how both top and bottom lines went back to Malice -1920,a Chestnut TB, who was imported from Argentina and went to Dorset to Lady Margaret Dummond-Hay, he appears several times in the lines and obviously came together to help to give us these lovely riding ponies,which were influenced by the Polo/Riding ponies of those early years and the other lines, Arab, Welsh, TB, etc.etc.
I've have never seen Kilvington Scoundrel and like the look of him from his online pic.. I only saw Bwlch Valentino once and that was at his home in the Welsh Mountains, but it was a very impressionable, once seen never forgotten. I also saw Bwlch Minuet on a regular basis,at one time, the only filly from that breeding, as the rest were colts, Zip,Zingari,Zephyr,Zest, and I know that one of Minuet's daughters is at home in the next Welsh Valley where Bwlch Valentino spent his life. Lovely ponies, lovely times.
Sue
Leaving you the breeding links to the family.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kilvington+scoundrel
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/miss+minnette
|
| Ziadomira |
Posted - 23 Oct 2009 : 8:48:08 PM
Lovely old names mentioned here.
Has anyone noticed that Kilvington Scoundrel the sire of the Supreme Horse of the year at HOYS The Phinalderer and the Cherif supreme Sandhills Scallywag has both Bwlch Valentino and Bwlch Zingaree in his pedigree. In all breeds it states that Valentino was 12.5% Arab and recorded as a part bred. Zingaree was registered as a riding pony. Beautiful pedigree with legendary Arab, TB and Welsh horses
Zia |
|
|
