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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 7:46:12 PM
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I wonder if anyone has any experience/ideas.
I was trying to get Raf (Arab) fit to have a go at the Kiplingcotes Derby. He's hunt fit anyway and I've been very gradually increasing his exercise every week. Last Saturday we went to our usual training ground, did the usual exercise which included a mile canter up the hill twice, with a break in between, a trot up the hill and a walk up the hill, as well as steady canters on the flat bits. Same as previous week, except that our average speed was very slightly faster. He didn't break a sweat and the only time his breathing rate increased was after the second mile canter when we have to climb a very short steep section of the hill. It was a cold and rainy day.
Sunday he was having a day off, but I put him in the indoor school to make sure he was ok and let him move about. What a shock - he could barely move. It was so odd, we couldn't work out what was wrong, he appeared lame on all four legs, was crabbing and appeared to be guarding his back. Even leading him to and from the stable I had to virtually drag him. Standing in his stable he had appeared ok - eating happily, wee & poo all fine.
Monday the vet came out. I think he was already slightly better but not much. She was perplexed too, did flexion tests which showed nothing, checked his back and his pelvis, all appeared ok. Bless him he was still trying to do his head twirl and showing off, but his body just wasn't having it.
Vet took bloods to test for tying up as this seemed the obvious cause, and injected him with steroid/muscle relaxant.
Tuesday he was miles better, still not at all ok - this was the first time the YO had seen him because she'd been away and she was shocked. Her first thought was a back injury.
Wednesday put him out in the school and he set off at a gallop doing proper twisty bucks (back feeling ok then?) Flounced around the school with head and tail up, kicking up his heels and obviously feeling fantastic.
Bloods came back - not tying up, but his inflammation markers were slightly raised. Vet doesn't know what has gone on, she can only think he was stiff and sore from his exercise in the cold on the Saturday, but how extreme. She can only suggest I return to normal with him and see if it happens again.
5 or 6 years ago he had a similar episode, but he was already ill with a virus at the time and we thought he'd been kicked in the field while he was feeling low as the vet couldn't think of any other explanation at the time.
I've googled and googled, but I can't find anything similar so would be very interested to hear if anyone else has a sensitive Arab who has experienced this. Raf is 11 this year and was diagnosed with Cushings at 9 - he's never had any laminitic symptoms. He is on a relatively low starch/sugar feed (Re-leve) and ad-lib hay.
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East Yorkshire |
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Mrs Hoo
New Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 8:24:26 PM
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| Hi I had a pony diagnosed at 13 with Cushings disease that showed similar problems with being stiff on all four legs and crabbing. She had been on Prascend for 5 years with great results but suddenly went downhill so the vet did an ACTH blood test and her count had shot up to 370ish ! I kept her in for 4 weeks on 12 hour soaked hay and she improved. Her digital pulses were not raised but she showed signs of Laminitis so it's very misleading! The only thing that had changed before this episode was that she had had a combined flu/tetanus jab about a week before and a friend had similar problems with her Cushings horse after her vaccinations so did your horse have any jabs recently? Vet said it could be an overload of toxins? Just a thought! |
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FireLight
Gold Member
620 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 8:40:16 PM
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A cob on our yard has Lymphangitis about once a year and has the same symptoms as you describe. He has a week on antibiotics and then he is ok.
You could google 'Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy' (PSSM). Also article about it in Feb issue of Equi-Ads. Interesting reading with some similar problems to Raf.
Hope Raf is soon back to normal and you get some answers. |
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 8:50:55 PM
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Hi, no he had his jabs in December. If he had just had them I could easily have put it down to that as he reacted very badly to the first flu jab he had, but he's been ok since.
An overload of toxins? It fits with his general constitution - bad reaction to flu jab, extreme reaction to Prascend - and I'm scratching my head to think if he's had anything different. But no, no wormers or anything. I did let him graze a little when we were out on Saturday while I was fiddling with something, but that's not unusual. I hope I haven't poisoned him.
He did another strange thing a couple of weeks ago. We'd boxed somewhere and when we mounted and set off friends who were behind me said that he was walking on his toes on his hinds. It didn't last long and I put it down to him being spooky at his strange surroundings. If his feet were sore with laminitis, would he walk on tip-toe? I always thought laminitic horses avoided putting weight on their toes.
He's only on half a Prascend a day as his levels were only about 65 and hadn't increased when he had his annual retest. Wonder whether I should get them checked again. |
East Yorkshire |
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 8:59:21 PM
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Thank you Firelight (as well as Mrs Hoo). I googled lymphangitis, sounds horrible. Raf doesn't have any heat or swelling in his legs and no temperature so I don't think that's it. I've spent a long time looking at PSSM articles! It's one of the causes of tying up isn't it. Some of the milder symptoms are so similar to Raf's that I wouldn't have been at all surprised if he had it, but the vet was quite clear that it would have shown up on the blood test, even a very mild case would show she said. Stumped  |
East Yorkshire |
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FireLight
Gold Member
620 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 9:11:40 PM
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| Oh dear Liz100 what a mystery. Still in your quest to find answers you are also learning so much. Hope you solve the mystery, keep us informed. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 10:37:35 AM
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Could be PSSM, Arabs are one of the many breeds that are prone to it.
Symptoms of PSSM - reported by owners to have improved after implementing diet and exercise changes. Horses with PSSM will typically display three or more of these symptoms:
Difficulty Holding feet up for the Farrier
Biting at girth when being saddled
Swishing or wringing of the tail and or pinning ears when cantering under saddle
Wanting to roll immediately after the saddle is removed
Frequently rubbing haunches and shoulders against objects
‘Hitching’ in trot as if they want to canter (similar to locking patella)
Stiffness or difficulty bending on one or both sides
Sore muscles behind the saddle after working
Sensitivity to grooming
Staying ‘camped out’ for some time after urinating
Regularly holding tail stiffly to one side
Travelling heavy on the forehand and or tripping/dragging toes when ridden
Holding head low to the ground for long periods when lungeing
Striking out with foreleg when lunged or ridden
Lack of impulsion
Dislike or even fear of being cross tied
Losing weight when stabled even when well fed
Difficulty in picking up and or maintaining a canter lead
Suddenly shying at ‘invisible’ items or objects that are familiar
Bucking or rearing under saddle for no apparent reason
Taking off at a gallop for a few strides when ridden for no apparent reason
Showing distress in breathing unrelated to allergies or heaves
Exaggerated hock or stifle actions (like stringhalt)
Tying up from mild to severe episodes (This can result in temporary paralysis)
Showing symptoms similar to colic (lying down, looking at stomach)
Rope walking
Bucking after jumps
Needing to be lunged before being ridden, especially after a few days off
Difficulty developing a topline
Box walking
Difficulty collecting and bending properly
Localised muscle quivering
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 10:47:44 AM
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| Speak to you vet again about the possibility of PSSM, from what you have said, it sounds like could certainly be a possibility. The hair sample will only show if the horse is PSSM 1 positive or negative. To find out if it is type 2, 3 or 4, then a biopsy needs to be done. But start with the hair sample. |
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Mrs Hoo
New Member
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 2:15:24 PM
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| Never heard of PSSM so learn something new every time I come on here! Definitely sounds a possibility though. You are right that a Laminitic keeps the weight off the toes so it doesn't sound like that is the problem? If you still can't get to the bottom of this and do a re-test for ACTH levels then it might be worth asking your vet to do a TRH Stimulation test. It's more expensive than the normal test but gives a much more accurate reading especially if the count is borderline. My vet hadn't heard of it but contacted Liphook clinic and they sent a kit to the vet. Good luck with trying to sort this out and keep us posted. |
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 2:37:38 PM
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Thank you Judith, what a lot of information. I am a bit confused because I think if it was PSSM he would have been experiencing a tying up episode and this would have shown on the blood test. I *think*. I will check this with the vet though.
I did wonder about PSSM with the initial episode 5 or 6 years ago but the vet thought it unlikely at the time, plus they didn't think he could have Type 1 because it only affects certain breeds and so he'd have to have a muscle biopsy to test. Can't quite remember, it was so long ago and I'd forgotten all about it until now.
Rode him today and he felt fab, I just can't understand how he could recover so quickly. Will see if he suffers for it tomorrow. |
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Etoile
Silver Member
275 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 2:42:38 PM
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What about trying Vitamin E supplementation. We had issues with senj having unexplained low level tying up type symptoms the first winter we were really doing proper fittening (for endurance) with him. We were at a complete loss and so was back lady. Had a look round online and there was a lot of american stuff about low level tying up being caused by vitamin E/selenium deficiency. Vitamin E is present in growing grass, but not in dried forage (hence a lot of american stuff about it as more common in america to be on dried forage year round), so it fitted with the onset of his symptoms being in winter. Selenium is toxic in higher doses so shouldn't be supplemented in higher levels without testing etc., but there's no problem with vitamin e, any excess is just urinated out. So we decided to try supplementing Vitamin E, which solved the problem completely. Both forage plus and progressive earth sell natural and synthetic vitamin e. Theoretically natural vitamin e gives you more bang for your buck, but for whatever reason senj didn't get on with it (he was on synthetic initially as that was what was available at the time, but a trial swap onto natural vitamin e later led to a return of his symptoms). When he was training/competing he was on 8000iu a day year round (synthetic), if you were feeding natural the equivalent would be about 4000iu. It's also worth noting that vitamin e is recommended for horses in a higher level of work regardless, some competition mixes include it but usually in low levels as it's expensive (compared to molasses etc.!).
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 3:26:32 PM
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They don't always have tying up episodes. Lots of other symptoms, stiffness, pottery gait etc...
PSSM is found in Quarter Horses, Appaloosas, Gypsy cobs, warmbloods, Arabs etc...
Now you can do the hair test for PSSM1, worth doing, if hes negative at least you can rule out PSSM1.
If you are on FB, then worth joining the PSSM UK group on there, lots of info & very knowledgeable people for advice etc. There is also a PSSM USA group, with a vast wealth of info.
We've just had out Quarab Ruby tested as shes suddenly gone very stiff behind, & then after a week is having a lamanitic episode, shes 9 this year & never had a problem before. The stiffness etc appeared fist, she was very reluctant to move her back end etc. Vet did blood test to see if she had had a tying up episode, but that cam back clear. So we decided, because of her breeding to test her for PSSM1, shes come back double negative.
Vet is back on Monday, so will do more bloods etc.
Will be interesting to see your your boy is after riding tomorrow.
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Edited by - Judith S on 18 Feb 2017 3:28:39 PM |
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Liz100
Silver Member
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 7:28:32 PM
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Thanks all, I certainly am learning a lot! I will look into the vit E supplement. There is both vit E and Selenium in his feed, but yes only low levels of vit E.
Never heard of TRH Simulation Test, I'm going to look into that too.
Judith - I hope you find out what the issue is with Ruby. I'd be really interested to hear what the vet finds on Monday, or when the bloods come back. |
East Yorkshire |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 08:04:32 AM
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| If you google Vit E PMMS horses, you will see that it plays an important part in the diet of horses that are PSSM positive. |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 08:06:56 AM
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https://www.facebook.com/notes/pssm-uk/pssm-feeding/420879361432337
1. No sugars (including molasses) and feeds should be low starch @ about 12% or lower NSC (a combination of sugar and starch). There is an excellent document in the Files section which lists many commercial feeds with their NSC content.
2. Magnesium Oxide 56% @ 1-2 TBS per day. Often feed stores which cater to cattle have this in bulk.
3. Natural Vitamin E. The minimum is 2000IUs but may go as high as 10,000 IUs depending on your horse. Powdered Es are very poorly absorbed unless in the "water soluble" form, which is actually micronized E with oil. Even feeding it with a high fat item like ground flaxseed doesn't work well. The powdered E has to be mixed in directly with the oil, you can't count on them finding each other. It doesn't take a lot of oil, just an ounce or so to mix directly with the powdered E before adding to the feed. Uckele also sells an E in oil, or you can use the human gelcaps.
4. Salt @1-2 oz per day even if they have a salt lick. This should be table salt. No agreement on iodized or non-iodized.
5. EITHER high fat or ALCAR (acetyl l carnitine). Some people feed both. If your horse is an easy keeper you may want to start with the ALCAR (can purchase at MyBestHorse.com, Bulk Supplements @ Amazon or NutraBio.com). If it is going to work, you should see a difference within a short period of time. This is an Amino Acid with works with the muscles to make them more efficient in using the carbohydrates they consume in their feedstuffs. Dr. Kellon is the equine nutritionist who started trying this on horses and found it to be successful. The ratio for ALCAR is 1 gram per 100 lbs of horse but can be higher in the beginning as it will not hurt them and often is very helpful as a loading dose.
6. The other option is to use a high fat diet which can come from oil, flax, rice bran, boss, copra, etc or combinations of these and other high fat feeds. The goal is to get to between 1-2 cups of fat per day. Fat replaces the carbohydrate as the energy source for the muscles. Dr. Beth Valentine (Oregon) and Dr. Valberg (University of MN) are the experts on this.
7. This is just a beginning diet. Every horse is different and you must decide what and how much is best for your individual horse. Experimenting and seeing what works is the only way to perfect your horse's diet. Try to make only one change at a time so you can see how that one change affects your horse.
8. As far as hay goes, it is best to test for the NSC content (Equi-Analytical will do it but so do most agricultural offices). Should ideally be below 12% and lower if possible. Whether you feed grass or alfalfa or combinations seems to be horse dependent. Hope this will get you started on your journey with your pssm horse.
9. Pasture. Some horses can tolerate it fine and others cannot tolerate it at all. Some do OK if the grass is short and not stressed (stressed grass and brown grass have more sugar). A grazing muzzle helps for those who can have a little grass and like to be out with their buddies.
10. Exercise. While not a feed issue, exercise is extremely important. 24/7 turnout is best and a structured exercise time also helps. The more they work, begun gradually and worked up, the better able they are to use the carbohydrates they take in and the less storage issues you will face. |
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Horse very stiff but not tying up
