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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 10:52:44 AM
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Hi, looking for some thoughts here!
Esme is doing beautifully in her groundwork and is being saddled, mounted, and walked around the school without any difficulties. She lolls along in walk, going over the odd pole, over the tarp, around the cones, figure 8's, etc. She's very mellow, really. I'm delighted!
However, if I cluck to ask for a faster walk or (god forbid!) a trot, she goes immediately tense. I've only tried it three times but each time it is the same. She quickens her pace, the head goes in the air, the back goes rigid, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about! We do half a step or 2 steps, then back to walk and it all goes back to mellow soon enough (though I feel there is some residual adrenaline leftover after the attempts to trot!)
Now, I do remember that when I first got her and started ground work, I found that she could only go around me at a walk while being relaxed, and that trot sent her into a kind of adrenaline high. That has long been resolved (just by doing a lot of trot to walk transitions), so perhaps this is what will happen now that she is ridden?
Or perhaps I ought to just be happy she is walking around nicely with obstacles and just give it a week or two and try again. Usually, this is the answer, but what do I know?
Just wondering what you of greater experience in starting arabians have found. My only other experience truly starting a horse was a rather over-confident coloured cob pony! He went into trot without much fuss, frankly, and my only worry was that he'd crash into the sides of the school, which he did a lot when we first started riding!
Thanks in advance!
PS. A photo of Esme enjoying an apple while under saddle. I love her ears
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Nichole Waller
Gold Member
England
1168 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:18:43 AM
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I've just been talking about this sort of thing to a friend on here 
I have backed two horses over the years, my Arab I have now and my old welsh x. Both were easy in their own way but I definitely had to do things different with the Arab (Ozzy)
Ozzy's preferred way of going is head in the air, backed dipped and marching along at a very fast walk. When I first backed him this is what he did all the time. I think it's something to do with the way they are built but Arabs do have their own unique way of going.
But that doesn't mean with time and patience that they can't learn to walk, trot and canter carrying themselves correctly.
We did a lot of ridden work with poles in both straight lines and on the circle. We would also raise them at alternate ends. To start with he found this really difficult and would clip every pole. Now he floats over them and arches his back and neck into a lovely shape.
My friend who schools him also does all of her warm up work (apart from the walking) standing up of his back. So when trotting she stands which allows him to stretch long and low with no weight on his back. After about 20 min of work standing off his back she then sits. She does this in canter too. It has made a HUGE difference to his schooling and now he carries himself really nicely instead of poking his nose in the air.
He will revert to nose in air and back tense if he is worried about something or if she asks him to try something new. It's like his way of saying "I can't do it" then when he starts to listen to her and he gets it right and she tells him how wonderful he is he goes back to his lovely self carriage again.
These Arabs are just so clever, they like to tell us when they are not happy about something or are unsure.
Keep us posted on how you get on with Esme.
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erica giles
Gold Member
United Kingdom
767 Posts |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:43:55 AM
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I have always lunged arabi from my voice he will trot and canter on command, using "and trot" seems to work I don't even need to flick the whip although he can be a bit cheeky with a new handler and will go in a snails pace if he can get away with it, seems the opposite to your arab although my other horse a warmblood mare sounds very much like your horse, she is very tense in a menage and as soon as you step away from her used to shoot of in full pelt, I cant put a whip anywhere near her I think she has been chased quite badly with one, with her I avoid too much eye contact and try to be really relaxed, she will also go on voice but you only have to whisper the command and I try to keep my voice soft I find this really helps.
Its strange as with arabi you need to be quite strong and let him know you mean business as he uses his dominance to avoid working if he thinks he can, his quite dominant in the field and bosses my mare she is much more timid and needs a softer approach but it did take me a long time to get her trust, I still cant raise my voice too loud she just hates it and she is so sensitive to the tone of your voice too she listens to me all the time and is looking for reassurance, and I think my voice soothes her in a scary situation now she knows me.
I am aware you do parelli and know they don't agree with using the voice with horses and claim its only for human benefit, I really have to disagree with this concept due to what I have just said about my mare, I don't know your thoughts on it but it works for me. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:46:19 AM
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Thank you so much for that response -- lots of food for thought. Interesting idea that this might be her way of saying, "I can't do it!". That may be easily resolved just with time.
Also, that I may need to get very light in the saddle at trot! This didn't occur to me!
I tend to get very deep in the saddle at a walk, with little weight in the stirrups, because this is a nice position if you want to stay on in case of disaster, but it may be that it is working against me at trot. How interesting! And even though she's 13, she still hasn't been under saddle so it may be that her muscles are saying, what is THIS?
I find that working with obstacles is really important so that I have a focus for where we are going, and she sees a point in what we are doing. She's easily bored. I think it was Judith on this forum who said don't repeat too many times or you bore them, and it's true. Do what you have to, then change the subject, then return to the subject if you like but not over and over and over....
So, if I ever get into trot (a few weeks?) I'll use the poles as you did. Thanks again!!!! And thank you for the compliment on Esme -- she is lovely! I didn't breed her or anything....just got lucky enough to be owned by her.  |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 11:58:40 AM
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Don't rush it martha. whatever you are doing up to now is working well. Slowly now.
My thoughts went straight to when you were having tension on the circles at first. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 12:11:15 PM
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Pinkyboots,
I DO just use my voice, lol! I can't put any let on her. As for a stick -- I don't carry one. OMG, the thought of that...! She'd be sure I was going to beat her to death with it even though on the ground we do the "friendly game" with stick and string. You get on their backs and everything changes. Or some things change. She still lets me touch her all over and massage her neck, dock, etc. But a stick wouldn't be a very good idea right now (to say the least!).
Yeah, parelli doesn't agree with voice aids when they are teaching their students, but that is because they are trying to get the student to become really, really aware of their body position and "intent", energy, where they are projecting energy or whatever. They don't care if you use voice later on, just not in the early levels. Pat clucks, kisses, all that, and I've been using the cluck to go from walk to trot on line because she's still having trouble reading my intent (probably because my body signals on the ground are not sophisticated enough yet!) She's really, really mellow now on line going from walk to trot to halt to walk to trot, and when I ride her she's really mellow at walk. But not trot. I cluck to get her into trot and it is like a Tension Button.
Sounds as though your horses have changed brains! LOL! I am much more familiar with the dominant, "seriously, you think I'm going to do that for YOU?" horses, then Esme. She's trying hard for me but we are like two people from different languages having a conversation and then getting stuck because we don't really know what the other is saying, so we skip to a different subject, and reconnect that way. V. interesting!!! I'm learning a lot.
Thank you for your reply :) |
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 1:33:17 PM
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Look at her trot work on the lunge and long reins carefully and mentally check of her natural rhythm and carrriage, acceptance of bit/halter/pressure, is she better one rein than the other, or straightlines better than bends? Do lots of skipping up and down behind her in case it's a visual thing she fears (rising rider can spook some), practice posting in walk and importantly work out what degree of feel she finds most reassuring to work into. For many, trotting along with washing line reins can make them feel abandoned so you need a bit of contact and you can work up to her being more indepenedent later. Also note to yourself is she is a 'hop' into trot sort so you are ready when you do it under saddle.
As she's already backed it's a bit of detective work...! Poles/obstacles are handy - moreso in helping youngsters canter as they naturally want to canter after a small jump.
Then just progress as you are - practice lengthening and shortening her stride in walk, transitions, and altering rhythm. Then just sort of 'waft' up into trot for a few steps and back to a lovely soft walk. Then 'waft' again as you mosey about. Give her guidance/perimeters but be pliable too. It's hard to explain but you'll soon be gliding up and down the gears with her looking for the pace you want. |
    
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
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KittyB
Silver Member
United Kingdom
295 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 1:49:19 PM
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| Perhaps you could take her out of the school and along a nice grassy lane with another horse. Trot the other horse on and encourage her to follow? I backed my 4 year old arab last year and we came to trot and canter in his own time, without me "making" him, that is he trotted and cantered when he was ready - the canter was just by accident really, but once he'd done it he was fine from then on. Just remember to allow her to go forwards. Richard Maxwell's book From Birth to Backing has a good section on first rides. She might find balancing herself with you on board difficult at first in anything other than walk. I'd give her time and she will trot when she is ready and confident to do so with a rider. |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 2:10:03 PM
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Martha it really does seem my horses have changed brains, thing is I know very little about my mares background and its seems to me she has been rushed and bullied in the school as she is much more relaxed on a hack but we are getting there.
Yet arabi I know he has nothing but kindness and understanding as we got him from the breeder and only I have handled him, he is a very good boy but you often have to tell him to do things as his dominant side kicks in but he will respect you for it and then do anything for you, although if handled by a novice he can become nervous and will worry, my partner is not that experienced around horses and he often wont be caught by him, although grace will go to anyone yet she is the more nervous generally, it is a fascinating subject analysing there personalities and finding ways to deal with them best, your esme sounds like our grace, do you know much about esmes past or are you going in blind which is a bit like my situation I think it makes a huge difference who has handled and started a horse and how it then develops into an adult |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 2:29:58 PM
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It's true that Arabs are built in a way that makes them naturally carry their heads high and dip back especially when excited but they can be worked in relaxation so that they learn to use their back and balance better,which in the end will be more comfortable for them,too.It's a work that is beneficial for any horse.For a horse without issues the easiest way to obtain this is to lunge in a gogue,which is not constrictive at all.Lunging normally it will take longer.Once the back muscles are strong the horse will find it easier to walk/trot/canter in that position.Transitions are always tricky as most green or not properly worked horses hop into a faster pace like somebody said mostly because they don't use their hinds properly yet so movement starts from front instead than behind.
I think she will eventually understand and relax,you are already doing well by starting to trot then going back to walk make the trotting bits slowly longer I am sure eventually she will be relaxed like she is in walk.I would still work from the ground however,maybe do some lunging and only get on for the last 10 mn.
Arabs,however,do get excited easily.Both mine will make ME sweat in the school,and be even too relaxed,but when I go on a hack with others and there's a trot or canter,then it's a different matter!There goes head up-back down again...unless the trot is a bit long,then after the initial enthusiasm they relax again. |
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ali bali
Gold Member
Scotland
641 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 2:34:31 PM
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Ive only backed one horse so Im certainly not an expert! But he had exactly the same issue totally chilled in walk but tense and only managing a couple of ragged half strides in trot before grinding to a halt.
I had someone video this and watched it again and again until it finally hit me what was happening. My lower leg was moving slightly forward into a little bit of a braced position anticipating the stop. This forward brace of my leg (quite subtle though it was) acted like applying the foot-brake in the car causing the horse to stop!
Maybe like me you are subconsciously altering your position going into trot and upsetting your mare? I certainly have found that every problem I have when schooling a horse is generally down to something I'm doing ~note to self, must learn to ride better~ LOL!
My boy definitely preferred a lightened seat at first in every gait, luckily for me he is so good I felt confident enough to oblige him. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 8:27:45 PM
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Thanks guys for these really interesting thoughts -- I appreciate it!
Esme is a "re-start" because she'd become prone to rearing and was being sold as a broodmare only, but I don't think she had a long career of rearing. I think she managed to scare everyone off her back pretty quickly and so she didn't become totally hooked on rearing as an avoidance. She's certainly not gone up with me or even tried. Of course, I work with her on the ground for 45 minutes to an hour (slow work -- mostly walking) until she's in the mood for me to get on. I can't imagine what she'd do if you just tacked her up and said, "Right, off we go!". I think she'd find that very abrupt!
Believe it or not, she's not a scary horse at all. I don't really know what went on with the rearing! She seems a sweetheart but just very skeptical. Sometimes, she is genuinely fearful, but other times she is just trying it on. I had to give her some wormer today and she danced around and threw her head, but I could tell she was just saying "NO!" but not actually afraid. At some point, maybe 5 minutes in, she just stopped, stood still. and accepted the entire wormer without any trouble. Then she searched my pockets for treats (and found them!). Ears forward, eyes bright, totally unfazed. I thought, hmmm, occasionally my little shrinking violet is actually a drama queen!
I have been skipping/jumping up and down, and all that, but I hadn't tried to length/shorter the stride before going for the trot. Great idea! I also think she may be one of those who needs a little "hand-holding" so that the loose reins on a halter may not be ideal. Certainly, that big old brass buckle has to go. I will find some clip on reins at least and use the halter as a hackamore that way. I think the Dr. Cook's would be too much for her until I do more work on getting her to stop protecting her head.
I liked the "not to self, must learn to ride better" comment.....I feel like that all the time!!! With both my mares, actually!
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 09:09:44 AM
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She's trying hard for me but we are like two people from different languages having a conversation and then getting stuck because we don't really know what the other is saying, so we skip to a different subject, and reconnect that way. V. interesting!!! I'm learning a lot.
Funny hpw we get the horses we need, when we need them. She has been trusted to you so that you can learn and she can be safe. I firmly believe this happens all the time.
I have been thinking about this for you and I wonder if she has experienced a rider who 'holds' onto her mouth and fears this might happen as soon as she goes faster. That would explain the head going up as a reaction to the bit, then everything else gets tight too.
I still think you could try the passive riding with her. Maybe like me you have control issues. It is a good way of letting go in more than one way. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 09:43:01 AM
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Hi Quarabian,
I really appreciate the post. I totally agree that Esme and I "found" each other. For me, it was kind of deliberate. I wanted something to get me more excited about my horsemanship and to stretch me. I have a totally easy, "made" welsh cob mare and I adore her, but I wanted another horse that would challenge me. Well, be careful what you wish for!
I will try to get a video of me riding Esme. If I just sit on her and do nothing at all, she just stands. If I guide her off one direction or the other I let her make about half the decisions. So, let's say I want to go on the right rein and then she turns to go on the left after a few steps. I accept that, and then in a few more steps I try another direction. If she doesn't want to go that way, I consider my options. Argue? Maybe not. Totally give up and end up back at the gate -- this was a good option early on and depending on a number other things, I might do just that. Also, I may let her progress the way she prefers and ask again for my original idea. That seems inoffensive to her, so I do that sometimes. If we are far enough from the gate and she wants to go there, I don't argue! I think, great! Look at us go from one end of the arena to another without incident!
Oh, these baby steps are so important and so harrowing sometimes!
She needs leadership. She really likes having the pole or the tyres or the tarp as our "destination". She likes to know she got something right. In this way, she is very easy. My welsh cob does not think that she need leadership. She thinks she needs subjects and a sceptre!
I think Esme DID have a problem with the bit! You're right!! She was wearing a bit in the photos I saw and, in my opinion, she is not ready for one. I suspect she got scared by it and that she's remembering that, especially at trot. But then, she's kind of weird about her head. She loves to be stroked on the ears and poll, but if you do anything near her nose, she's worried and tight in the lips. I'm going to work on that today and see if she will let me move the lower part of her head around a little without her freaking out. A "freak out" for Esme may only be a step backwards, but inside she is going to pieces. I know I sound like I am exagerating, but occasionally I believe she's thinking, "One more minute and I am lunging back and running!" even while she stands still. I have to read her lips, ears, how much she blinks, head carriage, all the time.
She gets a lot of food rewards and this is, in part, to keep her jaw relaxed as she gets very tense there. I need to get rid of this buckle on my lead rope when I ride because actually it will be swinging a little, won't it? And even if it doesn't hit her in any way, it is still a threat which may prevent her feeling comfortable going forward. Today, I will try my scissor clips Libby's reins instead, though they are made of horrible nylon and have no "feel" at all.
I have a rope halter "hackamore" but it has a big rope knot so don't think we're doing better there. And the Dr. Cook's is too harsh for her right now (lol, "harsh" It's not a harsh bridle, as everyone probably knows but for Esme it would be too hugging on her and she needs an instant release. I DO love my Dr. Cooks and use it with my welsh even over jumps XC...brilliant contraption, but not on Esme right now).
Hey ho...off to experiment! |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 10:44:53 AM
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| Agree with Quarabian about being afraid of too strong a contact on her mouth in fact rearing could have been a defense for that,too?like strong leg pressure asking forward and at the same time too much pressure on bit,horse not used to it doesn't understand/feels pain and forward becomes upward to escape bit? |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 3:52:12 PM
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I would do what your doing, nice walking, on a young /just started horse I would do this for at least 4 weeks hacking out with someone beside you if you can, but if not, doing what you feel up to.
By this time you both will be happy and relaxed, ask for trot on a nice bit of road and do 3/4 strides, she will do it and all will be fine, the key is you have all the time in the world. You need to remember that she is a problem horse and each time you ride her she will get better, but don't rush her.
As others have said lunge her at walk and trot,use your voice so she trots on command as this will help with ridden trot.
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 5:24:44 PM
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Thanks again for the comments -- I can't go out hacking on her because I live in a very busy village and it just wouldn't be safe, though I ought to start taking her out in hand soon just to graze on the verge (note to self: wear good gloves and have long rope!).
I had a nice time with her today. We did about 30 minutes of massage (I have a new book on it and she LOVES it) and an hour of playing around at walk and trot, with and without saddle, then about 20 minutes riding at walk. I didn't feel up to trying to trot and I think I'll just make November a walking month unless and until something changes. If I can be walk/trotting by Christmas I will be delighted. I will get a video of her soon!
Glo, what happened at the Monty Roberts thing????? I'm dying to hear!!!! |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 8:20:50 PM
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| I will post tomorrow as I got back very late, and I also (I must be mad) having a party on Saturday, so am trying to get sorted for that. |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 3:35:24 PM
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Just been thinking about your mare, try to make it all fun, ride her around for say 5 mins, then get off her and trot her around from the ground say once around the arena,or down the centre line, make her stand and mount, then ride around for another 5 mins, and then get off and do the same again saying "trot on then" each time you trot keep repeating till she has got the hand of it then one day you "forget to get off" and see what happens!!!
Also do a rising trot in walk gently going up and down so that she gets used to you moving in the saddle. |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 8:39:51 PM
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| That is a good idea glo about rising in walk. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 6:56:53 PM
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Yes, I agree. Good idea for a rising walk and also about getting off and on and being playful. She actually doesn't much like me getting off and on, but I think these caged stirrups make it difficult....on the other hand, with my treeless saddle with fixed leathers, anything without a cage or a barnsby buckle (can't find them now for sale, sadly!) is kind of dangerous, so we have to just make do.
I've got a video of her today -- I'll post a new thread :) |
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Question for those who start horses
