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izzynsam
Bronze Member
103 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 8:09:56 PM
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im looking into trying natural horsemanship with my 19yo Arab , we have a very good bond but now she is older and needing a slower pace in life i have been toying with new un ridden things to do.
opinions please and why you prefer either of the above .thanks
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pippic
Bronze Member
75 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 8:34:23 PM
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I like Monty Roberts. personal thing. its his timing and his feel for the horse that i really admire, you can't buy that. I've learned a lot from watching his demos. I had a dually for my old cob who was built like a brickhouse and when he came to me he knew how to use his weight. Even had my OH waterskiing behind him on occassions. But had someone who practised Monty's methods work with us with the Dually and we had a transformed horse. yes you can pick holes in him like any other horse trainer, but i like him and I like Mark Rashid too. I return to Mark's books again and again.
I've come across a lot of horses spoiled by parelli, not because of the methods, but because the owners don't move on once they've learned one part and keep on repeating and repeating and repeating.. and the horse gets bored and starts to play up.. esp arabs, you've always got to keep their attention.
But why not just cherry pick the bits you like from all methods of natural horsemanship? I've always found if they feel right in your gut then they will work for you. you can't fake it with your horses. |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 8:46:17 PM
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There are other natural horsemanship styles. I personaly like Clinton Anderson (Downunder Horsemanship) and like pippic I am also a follower of Mark Rashid. Seems we are on the ssame wavelength Pippic.
I learned a lot from Parelli and Monty but the sensible thing is to watch them all, take in what you think is helpful and reject what makes you feel uncomfortable.
Most of the natural hosemanship comes from inspired western trainers who came before Parelli and Monty Roberts. We always start horses without a bit in western disciplines.
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zebedeedeb
Gold Member
England
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 9:02:21 PM
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| i also agree, i love mark rashid, i am a passive leader, i never tell i always ask, i have just qualified as an equine behaviourist and although most is based loosely around parelli, which originally came from the Dorance brothers,, we also had to research other methods, i use what works for me from each person i watch, its also how the horsemen of the old days learnt,, so keep an open mind and use what works for you and your horse, as like us, they are different,,and listen, so often our horses are telling us what they need, we just dont listen,, |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 9:16:37 PM
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I like Intelligent Horsemanship, so the UK version of Monty Roberts> However I also like clicker, Mark Rashid and andy thing that my gut instinct will do no harm.
Parelli was tried when I first had Cinny, but my gut feeling didn't like it and Cinny was not overly impressed. She has done well with what I call my toolbox of sensible ways.
With Tilly, my youngster I have used clicker to teach Tilly to have her hooves trimmed and IH for other odds and ends. If I get stuck I seek advice mostly from my friend who has the MRPCH (Monty Roberts Preliminary Cert of Horsemanship). The main reason I seek her advice is not her qualification, but the way I see she works with horses, and it feels right. |
    
Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
https://www.facebook.com/CinnabarEndurance/ |
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RUTHIE
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1238 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 9:25:54 PM
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Another vote for Monty Roberts....but its what suits you! I have used the Dually with brilliant results on a older horse and a very young horse.  |
     
In Memory of Crystal Flash 2010-2012 |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 9:36:52 PM
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| Parelli is incredibly structured and inflexible imo, but there are some useful bits - as there are with all the different training methods. Best advice has already been given - cherry-pick the bits that you like and that work for you and your horse. |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 9:38:07 PM
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| I am hoping that Monty will be starting my 3 yo in the next few weeks. I will keep you posted |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 9:58:20 PM
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Hi,
In some ways, if you are asking the question about which NH to do, you are already in the right place so which one is less important than the fact that you are, as Mark Rashid would say, "considering the horse."
I do Parelli, but I read Mark Rashid, Carolyn Resnick, and others. I'm probably a Level 3 parelli...depending on what I'm doing, but I can do a lot of level 4 stuff with my welsh mare, including a great deal of "liberty work". That is when there is no "making" the horse as you have nothing on them -- no line, no halter. And I do this in a sand school in which she can leave any time she likes -- but she doesn't! She loves it! She's really confident and happy and I always put the relationship first.
But if you saw how I "play" (parelli term!) with Millie (the welsh) compared to Esme (the arab) you'd see a BIG difference. I am using parelli with both, but with Millie I am full of energy and we careen around from one thing to another quite happily. With Esme, I bring my energy very far down, very low, and I slow it all down to a crawl. This is because Esme is not confident around people at all. She worries I'm going to eat her. I am constantly having to convince her I am not going to hurt her. It is a slow process of helping her gain confidence in me. You'd think I was using two different "techniques" if you saw me with these two different horses, but it's all just Parelli. Well, I do some Carolyn Resnick stuff, too, but there isn't all that much to "do" there. That's more about how to "be" with your horse.
If you join as a trial member parelliconnnect.com it will cost $18.00/month and is free for the first month. You can watch a TON of educational videos, including all of level 1 and then if you don't like it, cancel the membership. I highly recommend it -- I'm an addict for the videos!
However, if you do Monty Roberts, or follow another NH person, you'll probably find a nice way to be with your horse. As I said before, the fact that you are thinking in terms of "what is best for my horse?" is already an indicator that you will be a discerner of ideas and methods. Even though I love my Parelli stuff, I watch all sorts of other things, too.
My arab mare is very unconfident and perhaps the thing that helped me most was to use the Parelli idea of "horsenality". You don't have to "do" parelli to look into that concept, which again is easily understood through the videos on the parelliconnect site, or separately from their shop in DVD format.
I'm sure you will find that your NH journey is totally addictive!! |
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george
Gold Member
Wales
1353 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 10:29:56 AM
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********MONTY ROBERTS***********  sorry but I don't rate Parelli at all, my personal view is that they are in it for the money  |
George xxx
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moonlight
Platinum Member
2000 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 10:42:48 AM
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| Great to consider all approaches -please look at Tellington Touch and TTEAM as well, lovely ways of being and working with horses. xx |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 11:18:36 AM
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I really rate monty and kelly think they do great things and have used some of there methods
Cannot stand parelli really dislike the Blonde woman that does many of the demos, seen a few horses really messed up by parelli training, seen a few videos where the horses look almost like robots not nice. |
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jasjmm
Gold Member
625 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 10:04:11 PM
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| Could I ask why anyone would consider following any one method only? I believe you look at all of them then make up your own mind. What suits your preferred ways with horses and what suits your mare. noone will know your horse like you. Good luck with your mare. :) |
    
Bristol |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 12:22:45 AM
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Go steadily with your old girl - a lot of the NH 'entry level' work is for horses that are not used to human contact and have not 'bonded', so can be confusing to the point of stressing horses that are confident in their relationship with their humans. Personally I wouldn't use any of it on a horse as old as yours, since you must already have a great relationship!
Keren |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 11:23:59 AM
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I totally agree with MinHe.These methods were born to be used with horses that where not touched by human hands until they had to be rounded up and broken to ride.I don't think there's a method you can use with all horses it's not like instructions for an appliance.I have seen somebody start training a Fresian mare by chasing her away in the lunge pen,she was supposed to come to trainer herself in the end,but this mare would already follow you anywhere as she was basically a giant puppy raised in the home garden,so she didn't understand why she was chased away.Result:after a hour of running in circles(very bad for a young horse legs)a foamy mare completely confused and not coming close anymore.A total waste of time in that case.So be careful what kind of NH things you want to do with your horse.Arabs are so clever and you are probably already very close,go by instinct and find the Izzynsam method!
I have just read about Horse Agility,the equine version of the doggy one.Could be fun? |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
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Annette
Platinum Member
England
1551 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 2:56:30 PM
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| I am not sure what you are aiming to achieve with either method. In a 19yr old that you have a good bond with, I think you risk confusing her and making her unhappy. I would say carry on riding her, being an arab she can hardly be classed as old anyway! If she has some physical problem that means she can only do light work, then take her out for walks in hand. Like Keren and and Pashon2001 i would say forget both methods, you don't need them. Just enjoy your time together in the ways you always have. |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 3:14:38 PM
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Judith, I do quite a decent level of Parelli and I promise you that, done right, there is nothing "by numbers" about it. I think that in attempting to "decode" what someone like Pat does with horses, it can look very structured, but I've never treated it like that.
Parelli has given me more solutions than any other person, method, trainer, advice, I've ever had. I am not saying it is the ONLY way, or even necessary. If you have a great relationship with your horse and the horse doesn't need martingales, sidereins, tie-downs, big and bigger bits, doesn't load badly or spook outrageously, then you are very right -- why upset the apple cart? :)
I have an irish cob that was always so good, safe, quiet, and kind that anybody could deal with him. It took a little bit of knowledge to make him truly shine, but he was anyone's ride! And then I've had all my other horses some of which I need a great deal of help with
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I certainly am a Parelli bod, but I don't follow religiously or get rigid with my horses at all. What I can tell you is this: every horse I've worked with has improved dramatically by using the thoughtful insights I've learned through DVD Parelli courses like "Liberty and Horse Behaviour", and by watching the demos and videos on the parelliconnect site. My welsh mare (a level 3/4 sort of horse now) is so beautifully behaved and so safe and so happy, I could have sold her a thousand times over to all the people who've asked! And yet, when I got her she was a grumpy biting bracey MARISH little thing. However, I kind of liked how confident she was -- like if she'll head butt people across a yard, she's got some spunk!
My arab mare is really very frightened by people. It doesn't take much to freak her out, though she's perfectly "quiet" as long as you don't ask her to do much! I see her progressing very well using Parelli. If you do bad parelli (not taking into account the relationship, not paying attention to how the horse feels) you really aren't doing parelli the way it is taught. It's all about communication between the human and horse, and about building confidence in the horse through compassionate leadership. I spent about an hour today with Esme just playing what Pat calls the "friendly" game. This, because I see that when people (incuding me!) touch her she flinches before relaxing. Makes one heck of a difference to be aware of what I see in a horse -- that skin tightening just before the hand/brush/rug touches down -- and I doubt I'd have noticed it or done much about it had I not been taught through Parelli.
I agree that there are some big gaffs sometimes aired, and that Pat goes lightening fast so that if you try to do what he does, you'll mess everything up. Also, he makes dumb jokes sometimes!
As for the horse being 19 years old and already doing very well with the owner....well, I agree perhaps there isn't a massive need for a major undertaking! On the other hand, watching what horse trainers (NH or otherwise) do is always inspiring! |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
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izzynsam
Bronze Member
103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 7:05:15 PM
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Thanks for all your replies and i have decided ,as suggested by Anette to stay as we are ,the last thing i want to do is cause Izzy any un necessary stress and spoil what we have.
We already walk in hand when im not in the mood to ride,do our own very basic inhand schooling and happy hackers the rest of the time.
I was just curious of peoples opinions and experiences thanks |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 8:03:38 PM
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I've been to see Monty Roberts and enjoyed his show, and his book, but as Pasch and Minhe pointed out, his methods are born out of dealing with horses that are unused to humans until it came to time to be 'broken', and for a number of unfortunate horses that has been and is a savage experience, which hopefully his methods have helped to discredit. I haven't any practical experience of Parelli, but was turned off by the commercialism that seemed to accompany it and some very unfortunate videos involving Linda Parelli that turned my stomach.
I don't think there is much new in any of these systems - I was lucky to be brought up by someone who was taught by a couple of old horsemen who were born around the turn of the 20th century (in the UK, which doesn't seem to have spawned it's own gurus - unless someone can remind me of one that I've forgotten - which I find interesting - they seem to be either American or Australian) . When my mother backed her pony herself as a 15 year old in the 1950's she did it in a headcollar, and only bitted him when she took him to Pony Club because she couldn't take him otherwise. Martha I am sure you would have noticed your mare flinching before she relaxes when something comes into contact with her because you clearly have empathy with her, not because you have done Parelli. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 8:20:05 PM
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Last year I took my old mare to one of Monty's demo, as she refused to load and I had not been able to get her into a trailer, however on the day of the demo she walked straight in, she was worked by Kelly Marks and she said that she was a hard old girl and that all my problems stemmed from the fact that she had not been halter broken properly, you could not make her do anything with out a fight. I was taught how to do ask and release, to let her think that it was her idea to do things. The bond with her now is very good and she will now load (walk straight in) and travel happily. So you can teach an old horse new tricks!!!
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Edited by - glo on 14 Oct 2012 8:22:12 PM |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 8:47:49 PM
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| Natural horsemanship is just that. No frills just common sense. For me I was already doing things a natural way, but Monty Roberts gave me the thumbs up to carry on what I was doing and ignore the sceptics who thought I was doing it wrong! |
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martha615
Gold Member
England
1053 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 9:22:08 PM
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Susi (Cinnypony), were you asking me? I use Parelli, but have read Kelly Marks books (two of them anyway), Mark Rashid (who is a wonderful writer as well as horseman), a couple of Carolyn Resnick DVDs (and I subscribe to her blog -- it is free), and I am a fan of Karen Rohlfe, who has a site called www.dressagenaturally.net..........so it isn't just Parelli, but honestly a lot of the NH does end up being pretty much like Parelli, or parts of Parelli. It all overlaps somewhat anyway!
I don't do roundpenning. I do "liberty" work (no halter, no line, etc) but that isn't the same thing.
I think Pat is a little fast with horses sometimes, but he says he is slow! I would never do things so quickly but take 20x as long, which is fine, I think. I would say that the Parelli program can make you too task-oriented if you lose sight of why you are doing it (to gain a bond with your horse which will result in better behaviour, understanding, etc), that the American-style marketing might make you ill (I am American so I hope I can get away with saying such things!). For me, Parelli is about training ME to take note of my body language, etc. It really has been helpful. Karen Rohlfe recommends doing level 1-3 of Parelli before coming to her for dressage work. She does AMAZING things with her horses and was a "traditional" dressage rider, if you know what I mean, for many years before learning this stuff, which is her own thing and not Parelli.
So, there are plenty of different ideas out there. Fun to look at it and I've picked up so much! |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 9:29:25 PM
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Yes Martha was asking - you sound more rounded than some parelli people I have met.
There are some that accept everything whatever the leader of their school of thought says without question and look no where else for ideas.Parelli seems to have more than it's share of this. Hpwever from what you have said you do not fit this model as you look at other ideas and question, always good in my book
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Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
https://www.facebook.com/CinnabarEndurance/ |
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monyt roberts or parelli???
