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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 08:44:31 AM
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| I'm rehabbing a few 'navicular' horses at the moment. One was 10/10 lame 6 months ago and the vet advised PTS immediately. They'd tried egg bar shoes and wedges but the usual outcome, short period of relief and then rapide decline. Owners didn't want to do that and just wanted him field sound and were brave enough to try barefoot despite much misgivings and other peoples sceptisim - he's a big 16.3hh Irish sports horse with a background in top level showjumping - horses like him can't go barefoot can they?! His feet were in about as bad a state as any I've seen and for the first week he needed his hoof boots to get to and from the field. Anyway cut to six months later and his feet have improved hugely, the worst he ever is now is 1/10ths lame and he is back being ridden in the school and flying and bucking round the field. They don't need his hoof boots now as he is comfortable walking on all surfaces. And yes this is a horse with boney changes to the navicular bone. Navicular always starts as soft tissue damage in the foot, if not treated then boney changes will also start to occur. Prognosis once bone has started to degrade is a bit more guarded, but success via barefoot rehab has been impressive (read the Rockley Farm research results). I have written an indepth article about what exactly is happening with 'navicular' syndrome, why it develops and why barefoot works so well in rehabbing. If anyone would like a copy then just PM me and I will email it over. But a navicular diagnosis is not the death sentence it used to be. Only a few years ago the very word navicular struck fear into me having lost my first horse to it 17 years ago. But now it is just another condition that responds really successfully to natural horse care. |
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Sue J
Gold Member
Wales
914 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 09:26:56 AM
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I have a mare with navicular disease, confirmed by MRI scan by Sue Dysons team at the AHT.
As I understand it, bony changes to the navicular bone may well indicate Navicular but an MRI scan is required to confirm the disease / syndrome. I think many horses (particularly in years gone by) were wrongly diagnosed with the disease. A friends Welsh Cob being an example, turned out to be a foot abscess. As I understand it, bony changes don't necessarily mean navicular and that is why many horses come sound - some with correct shoeing, and some barefoot.
My own mare sadly was shod for a period when first diagnosed and I managed to keep her in work for a time but she started to deteriorate and has now been barefoot with regular trims by an expert Farrier, for about 2 years and sadly she is detioriarting to the point where I may soon have to PTS.
So Gerri back to your question. I would not buy a horse that had been correctly diagnosed with navicular syndrome, nor would I have one on loan but that is just my personal opinion as I wouldn't want the upset.
Sue |
Welshpool
Welsh/Shrops border
   
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 6:38:36 PM
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Gerri,
Even if you/your husband loan, arten't you still setting yourselves up for heartache? Could you just let the horse go back to the owner when no longer rideable? I don't think so.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 6:11:51 PM
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Update///// we spoke to the vet today that treated the horse and she was very positive saying that the owner was competing him at top level and working him 7 days a week and that she feels he can walk trot and canter, jump and even do rc activities at the moment we have also arranged to see a 16.2 ISH that is available to loan with view to purchase, Simon is still very keen for the horse with Navicular because he rode him and loved him but he has agreed to ride the other horse before making a decision and we also saw a huge H/W horse for sale, that has potentially been sold but if the sale falls through they will get back to us so fingers crossed and God on our side we will be guided to the right horse |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 12:49:10 PM
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| fingers crossed please....We are going to look at a horse this pm a 17hh TB???? if its chunky then it might be OK |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 12:54:32 PM
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have just spent 30 minutes tping to lose it all We arrived at this yard to find children running around shouting screaming and playing football with a bucket even picking it up and throwing it all around with this poor horse tied up in the yard with no one standing with him we went over stroked him and made a fuss of him as he looked decidedly unhappy with what was going on around him he proved to be a little bit tricky to tack up especially the girth........ the owner a very large girl was there with her sister and we were to find out why the owner is so desperate to find him a loving home Simon took him in the school and walked trotted and cantered him on both reins and he was as good as gold, the school was very deep sand and so hard going, so he did not ask the horse to do much as it was dark and even though floodlit it was casting dark shadow everywhere and he felt that if the horse had not done anything for a couple of years it would not be fair on him well Simon got off him gave him a pat and the sister grabbed the reins and decided she would ride him, apparently she has only been riding a few months she got on him and began to kick really hard and wave her arms flicking the rein on this poor hrses neck so she could canter round and round and roundI tried very hard not to say anything but the owner told me quietly that this is why she wanted to find him a good home as she could not ride him as weighed too much and her sister also a big girl could not really ride, knows nothing of horses but she was too afraid of upsetting her sister to tell her what to do or what not to do by this time he was quite sweaty and I noticed he was sowing a bit of lameness from the shoulder that I immediately pointed out to them and told the sister to dismount so I could check him, I found the tender spot right away and when massaged it with my finders his ears went back and he immediately moved away but then put his head in my arms and looked absolutely kn'd so we went off with the owner to speak to her, when we got back there was a little girl around 12 riding him with no hat and cantering him round and round by this time my heart was breaking and I felt that I just wanted to take him away there and then. we checked his legs and he has lovely clean legs, he is 19 years old and looks like an arab, a very araby head and huge expressive eyes he seemed to take to my husband as when we were stood next to him all talking he kept nuzzling him and it was my husband that walked him down as they got off him and just wanted to tie him up and my husband insisted on walking him down to cool off, I asked her if she had any bute and she said yes so I advised her to give him some for 5 days for the inflammed shoulder, I think he might have strained the muscle in the school, bless him but now WHAT DO WE DO We can take the horse with navicular who has an owner that is completed honest and upfront about her horse and we have talked to the vet that has been dealing with him and the vet was very positive or do we go with a horse that the owner maybe honest or maybe hiding something as she obviously cannot afford to keep her horse, his feet although shod looked like the shoes had been on for months as the feet were soooo long and mis shapen although she is willing to put him with us on trial but what if he is not suitable and she has disappeared at least the one with navicular is very honourable and honest maybe the owner of the TB is, Simon likes both the horses and cannot make his mind up and keeps asking me and I am terrified of making the wrong decision soooo I am posting here to all my friends to give me advice PLEASE I know that you will look at it logically and give me the best advice as you always have, I keep siding with the 19 TB because I know he needs us, but I just don't know whether thats sensible |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 1:09:12 PM
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It is normal in my country to have a vet come and visit the horse you want to buy and give you a certificate about his health,then if you buy a horse that has some problem you do it knowingly.If the owner is honest he should agree with a visit.I understand how you feel for the poor horse,but remember you want a healthy horse,no use buying a horse you can't ride unless you can afford it.Also 19 not very young...
Whatever you do,this should show your husband that there is more than one horse he will like.If this horse has only small problems(a good farrier will take care of feet if they are only long,and if the shoulder is only a muscle sprain it is no big deal)then between this and the navicular I would opt for this(after a trial and vet visit)Good luck whatever you decide |
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Offira
Platinum Member
England
1583 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 1:26:07 PM
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If it comes to the choice of 2. I decide on one and see how I feel then about losing the other. Just going on what you are saying I would offer a maximum of £400 - £500 for the 19 year old (who sounds an absolute poppet).
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Goldenmane
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4964 Posts |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 1:47:49 PM
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| TO BE FAIR SHE WANTS VERY LITTLE MONEY FOR HIM SO THATS NOT A PROBLEM AND HAPPY FOR US TO HAVE HIM ON TRIAL FIRST BUT MAYBE ITS ME BEING CYNICAL AND SUSPICIOUS YES 19 IS OLD AND WE DID NOT KNOW HIS AGE WHEN WE WENT TO LOOK AT HIM I THOUGHT SHE SAID 9 |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 2:01:13 PM
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Oh lord what a dilemna, I don't know what to say Gerri, very hard not to want to rescue the poppet - but how long will your husband be able to ride him out for? There are exceptions to the rule but larger horses do tend to age quicker. What if he is even older than 19? It would be one thing if you had your own land and were able to keep him as a field ornament when the time came, but quite another if you are paying to keep him at livery.
Given the positive report by the vet I would probably give the first boy a chance - but ultimately it is down to your husband - which one did he prefer riding? Which one did feel happier with handling? Would going to see the original one again clarify his feelings? Good luck which ever way you go, and remember that there are other horses out there. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 2:48:21 PM
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It's a minefield out there Gerri. I don't envy your decision as the big guy sounds possible, but if it says 19 on his passport he could be 26. You wouldn't know my old girl's age by her teeth and condition.
I have just 'given a horse away for half of what I paid for her as a 2 year old. She is an absolute treasure, but I couldn't get anyone to come to see her in Wales. She is 5 years young with the rest of her career in front of her. She is good in traffic, no vices or issues, steady but willing, travels and loads easily etc, but no one would come to see her. So rather than take her to a sale I have found a good home. With this in mind there must be plenty out there looking for a good home.
If you decide to go with either of these you would be doing them a favour to take them off their hands. So don't let them take money from you. |
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Bebely
Gold Member
United Kingdom
813 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 7:55:17 PM
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I agree with Quarabian Gerri. If either of these are free to good home then you can decide whether you want to pay the vet bills and deal with the heartache.
Would your husband be happy with a horse he can pet and love if it can't be ridden? I'm sure he would if he had enjoyed some years of hacking out and riding fun but what if either can only manage 6 months?
If he is really looking for a riding companion, can you bear to save up a little longer and look at other options. I know you want to save them all!
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 06:48:39 AM
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| They are not free but the lady with navicular has offered him free as she spoke to my ex vets and yard owner and said she really wants us to have him and she has said she will have him back if and when he cannot be ridden again she also came and saw the yard and spoke to present yard owner and later called her and asked her questions and she said that she could not wish for a better home for him and even said she would get him transported to us, so she is really desperate for us to have him and I m afraid of upsetting her because she is pregnant and was sooo keen for us to have him and for him to enjoy the easy life of us hacking him out and loving him |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 09:10:57 AM
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| Sorry Gerri but I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone would knowingly buy an unsound horse when with a bit more looking they could find a sound one without any issues. JMO, |
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Offira
Platinum Member
England
1583 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 09:39:45 AM
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I'm going to sound very hard hearted here but the lady is desperate for you to have him because you are the answer to her prayers (quite understandably as it is the perfect solution, so not getting at the lady ). It is whether the horse is the answer to your prayers that is the question.
In your shoes I would feel bad about the navicular horse, but go for the 19 year old (it won't be long before he is 20).
Also having taken 3 horses through to old age and very old age and the cost of long term retirement. I would prefer to start with a younger horse (say under 12).
Actually, scrub all that I would take the 19 year old just to stop him being cantered round and round in deep sand. This is why I am poor I think.
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 11:46:07 AM
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Agree with Offira and Suelin.You can't buy a horse because you don't want to upset the seller!
Had I known Pasch had his problems before buying him(vet who visited was from the sellers' town as it was too far to go with mine,I was either cheated or he was incompetent )I would have gone looking for another horse.Now I have a horse that I love to bits but that I can hardly ride at all,in fact I ride other horses when I can as I can't afford to buy and pay livery for another one.Don't get into the same situation as long as you can still avoid it.
If I had to choose I would also choose the poppet(owner of navicular will look for another good home)but really you should look for a younger,healthy horse. |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 1:11:58 PM
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| Okay.....I agree with everything you all say I know that you are all right we have the chance of having a yonger fit horse and the owner is coming to see us on sunday I will not do anything until we see the horse and how much she will want for him? she will consider us having him on a months trial subject to where we keep him so fingers crossed it works out okay |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 1:35:39 PM
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| If she was that desperate to give him a good home she should give him to you...then you could save that money for the start of the vets bills.... |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 2:39:51 PM
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Personally I couldn't walk away from the 19 year old and leave him in the hands of these idiots. He really is a horse in need, and as a bonus might well be a good horse for a good few years yet. The owner of the navicular horse should face up to her responsibilities and look after him herself instead of trying to off load him.
If you are looking at really cheap horses becase that is all you can afford at the moment I suggest you wait a while till you have saved a bit more. |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 3:33:55 PM
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| I agree with Zan. The 19 year old horse is in need of help. The other is the reponsibility of the owner pregnant or not. |
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 4:46:28 PM
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| Well i am going to sound hard hearted but i would have neither, if the 19yr old was free then fine maybe take a chance but for the owner to ask any money for this horse is awful esp as he seemed a little lame. If he were mine i would just be grateful somebody wanted to give him a home at 19yrs. Good luck whatever you decide. |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 5:04:42 PM
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| Yes sab2 I agree. I have said this in a previous post on this topic. I would not part with my old guy with navicular for money, but he is staying here until the end anyway. When he was first diagnosed he could still be ridden and would have made a schoolmaster for someone, but I still wouldn't expect someone to pay for him. |
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 6:35:13 PM
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Okay folks this is the latest the girl and her mum came over to the yard tonight the Mum does not want to sell the 19 year old (actually 18) she bought him for her daughter when she was 9 years old, he has never really done anything except hack out and a few local shows hence the clean legs she explained that her daughter has been made redundant and the sister who rode him hard in the school does not really bother with him was just showing off and so the girl that owns him her daughter, is struggling to keep him and just wants him to have somewhere where he will be loved and cared for she met the yard owner where I keep my girl and I left them to talk I don't know what was said but she said she would love us to have him and that he would not have a better home, which was lovely, made me feel really nice inside as obviously people notice how you love your horses and I told the yard owner to give her number so they could call her direct, sooooo we will see what happens from here, also she said we can ring her vet and talk to him as he has always looked after the horse since he was 3 years old and never had a days sick or sorry in his life, Milly is 18 years old and she is like a 5 year old and I never think of her as old so thats the latest, I will keep you updated at what happens next............if I am not boring you to death yet if I am, then I am sorry but I just feel all of you have been there every step of the way throughout this journey of indecision and feel you should be part of the outcome    |
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JESSIEMAE
Gold Member
England
872 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 7:46:06 PM
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Hi Gerri, good luck with whatever you decide to do. Just wanted to add that my rescue, Montana, is 18 in February and looks like a 7 year old ! She is also my favourite ride and is 100% in traffic, with double decker buses, motorbikes and Hgv's roaring past us and she doesn't bat an eyelid ! Give me a golden oldie any day
Liza xx |
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Navicular???? UPDATED
