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pinknose
Silver Member
 England
298 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Sep 2011 : 11:15:08 PM
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Hi, I'm really worried about my gelding Charlie, he's been really lame on his back legs for over a week, first his right which got better and now his left which is so sore he has barely put it down for a week. I had one of our vets out to him (I work as a vet nurse in a mixed practice but we're not horse experts) when he first went lame but he couldn't find anything except a bit of bruising on the sole. When he went lame on the other leg I got an equine vet to come to him, she did scans and x-rays and tried to sample his tendon sheath fluid but he was too sore to cooperate. She found evidence of laminitis in the left hind(he suffered from this last august) but said it wasn't so bad to be causing the lameness and that there were no other signs of it.
She was basically stumped so recommended referral to Liverpool Uni but I didn't really want to transport him when he was so lame.So another vet from her practice came out (orthopaedic specialist),did x-rays of all feet and he reckons it IS laminitis after all, in all feet but especially bad in the left hind as there's infection there too. So he's been poulticed but is still not weight bearing, even on painkillers and i'm just so concerned he's not improving.
I was wondering if anyone out there has had similar problems and what the outcome was? He's not unwell with it and is eating etc ok but I know this is life-threatening and just wondered if there's anything else I can do? I feel so guilty as I know he's not been right for a couple of months, which I put down to his arthritis/spavin flaring up but it must have been this all along.
Sorry for such a long post,especially when I haven't been on here for ages but I'm so worried about my boy. Any thoughts at all greatly appreciated.
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pintoarabian
Gold Member
Scotland
1242 Posts |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 09:16:18 AM
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| Agree with all Pintoarabian has said but also test for Cushings/ Insulin Resistance. Make sure the vets do the test recommended by the Laminitis Trust ( can't remember what it is called) and not the Dex Suppression test, which involves injecting steroid so can make matters worse. If it is Cushings related laminitis no matter what you do it won't improve till you get the Cushings under control. |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 09:29:46 AM
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My sympathies by the TON as my little mare, Milly has been suffering HIDEOUS lameness and getting WORSE despite all efforts by all the vets who ARE in an equine based practice over here.
There may be a problem with more than one cause here....and you are right to be investigating all possible reasons for Chrlie's ongoing lamness.
I think what has been said by pintoarabian is spot on for laminitis....have been doing ALL of the above myself.....but sometimes laminitis ( if this is what it is, has a more sinister underlying cause and treating the symptoms are not enough.
Sometimes a laminitis that niggles on has a cause other than a carb overload or concussive damage for example....and insulin resistance or a metabolic disorder can mean that whatever you do that would help a horse with simple laminitis will not help as much as you might expect in the long term.
How old is Charlie?
Any other symptoms?
Thirst, sweating, coat late to drop, puffy over the eyes?
I know things like IR and Cushings appear more often in an older horse, but they HAVE been seen in horses under 10 too....so if it IS laminitis that does NOT go away, please consider an insulin resistance test and ACTH level testing.
Milly had ACTH levels over 600...normally under 40 and we hope that treating the pituitary issues she has will then switch off the underlying cause of her problems.
Every horse is different and what may be a cause in one ir well wide of the mark when disgnosing another one.
I have been tearing my hair out over Milly for five weeks so I can relate to your worry and hope you get answers as there is nothing so distressing as seeing your normally agile and bouncing horse hobbling and miserable.
Hope Charlie feels better soon...and then so will YOU!
Wishing you and Charlie the best
~Cate and Milly |
Fine Art & Photography
www.catehamilton.com
 
Cate Hamilton
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 09:37:25 AM
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Agree with the above, I had one with Lami 3 years back, and knowing what I know now I would have all the tests done to rule out Insulin resistance and cushings.
Did they explain the findings from the x rays they did? what infection has he got is it an abcess? I would look into getting a more specialised vet to have a look, they also gave my horse acp for the first week as well as bute to increase blood circulation, don't know if this is something they still do. |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 09:55:18 AM
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Oh poor Charlie!
What feed/hay is he currently on? You may not have to change too much, but as others have said, avoid sugar (mollasses) and stick to good quality hay (meadow if possible) and avoid Haylage.
What have the vets given him? Finadyne and Metacam can be more useful in the first few days and it may take a few days to a week for him to settle if it is very painful.
I would strongly advise giving him a tonic to help his body flush out any nasties and help him cope with everything he's going through! Global Herbs Restore is a very good one and readily available.
I would also strongly advise using leg wraps or stable boots to help with circulation whilst he is in!
I will keep everything crossed that he gets better very soon! I know it's hard but please try not to worry too much! He can't do any damage tucked up in his stable and if you can get to the cause and sort that out, then you'll be well on your way!
When Pasha was on boxrest with Cushings Lami, be developed an air pocket and it was soo painful, he basically laid out on the floor and groaned! We really though that was it! But as soon as the vte released it and gave him the magical Finadyne, he was back to his bright eyed self again!
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 10:01:18 AM
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| The test is the chilled blood serum test ( cannot recall the actual name of it! ) that is the safe one and only blood is drawn, nothing is injected to then test the reaction as it can CAUSE lamintis!...it has to be chilled rapidly and tested quickly or it can be ineffective. The results come back in 24 hours usually. Hope that helps. |
Fine Art & Photography
www.catehamilton.com
Cate Hamilton
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 10:17:01 AM
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I would get a blood test for EMS because if the sugar levels are high due to insulin resistance it is no good treating the symptoms and not the cause. There are so many causes of laminitis it is important to trace the cause in order to know how to manage the illness.
Whatever the cause you do need to ensure a low sugar diet to alleviate the symptoms and either a good trim or remedial farriery depending on the x-ray results. |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 10:25:23 AM
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Was it ACTH, Wyllow? Has Charlie had antibiotics for the abcess? He will be very lame and sore with an abcess so that needs drained and treated.
Agree with all tohers have said.
I hope he is a lot better soon. My mare had laminitis in one front foot a couple of years ago (only time I have ever had it) and it didn't seem to get any better for a few months and then suddenly cleared up. Don't despair, hopefully he will be OK.
Barbara |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 11:25:05 AM
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The vet should do a full blood work up which will show any rise in ACTH, Insulin, Glucose and will also show the Glucose/Insulin ratio! Even a mild increase in any of these can be enough! Shesky's Insulin was 28 when normal was 20 and he has been on Metformin ever since!
I haven't had him re-tested yet as just by looking at him you can see the Metformin is working, but I will have another one done in the next month or so, just to make sure. |
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pinknose
Silver Member
England
298 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 12:56:13 PM
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Hi everyone, thankyou so much for all your replies! So many questions to answer, so here's more information...
Charlie's 17, when he had laminitis last year the vet did blood tests ( I think for glucose and IR ) as he was worried about EMS or Cushing's but they came back negative. He doesn't seem to have any clinical signs of Cushing's but having read up on the subject most laminitis is caused by some sort of endocrine disorder so will ask the vet about more tests.
He's currently on box rest (rubber matting and deep shavings),he wasn't eating the hay we had so I got some Horsehage high fibre haylage which says its suitable for laminitics. He's just on danilon at the moment, though did have finadyne and antibiotics at the weekend.The first vet was concerned about a tendon sheath infection but couldn't get a fluid sample to check as he was too sore!(he was sedated and we tried for ever but had previously tried to do a nerve block which was also abandoned as he kept moving his leg!)
There is evidence of laminitis on his x-rays but I'm not sure to what degree ie how bad the pedal bone rotation is.I don't think its an abscess as such in his hoof, rather a build up of pus where the laminae have separated, although I suppose its the same thing. He's not on antibiotics at the moment as we want to encourage the pus to burst out. I think this could be what happened in the other leg, which is why it improved - i found a hole right on the coronet band which was very smelly.
He's already on Happy Hoof (ironic!!),biotin and Extraflex joint supplement.
While I believe it is laminitis causing the problem I'm not convinced there isn't something else going on aswell. He will bear a little weight on the foot when standing but will not put it down when walking, only the tip of his toe - not typical laminitis posture. Maybe he's seized up his muscles and now can't put it down, or maybe its psychological and he's anticipating pain? The weird thing is when his foot is examined its not really that painful, he didn't even react to the hooftesters at first.
I'm speaking to the vet again later so I'll update then! To make matters worse my insurance cover for laminitis ran out in August so I've now got to foot the bill unless they can find another cause! And I don't have a lot of money so don't know how much more visits and tests I can afford. |
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phoenixbruka
Gold Member
England
1190 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 1:00:56 PM
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I def retest for cushing hun, my boy never showed any signs other then being depressed .. worth ruling out as a base cause at his age
Best of luck
susie x |
   
www.liveryatcordwell.co.uk |
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Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 2:52:55 PM
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I second that! Definitely get him re-tested as Shesky tested negative Cushings and IR twice before his eventual diagnosis!
Unfortunately these bloomin Arabs NEVER prevent typical symptoms of anything in my experience!!! Neither Pasha nor Shesky had a typical Lami stance! Shesky walked like he was lame in the shoulder... in fact, so did Pasha! Not so much lame, but stiff! We now know he had LGL the year before when the vet diagnosed first a pectoral strain and then a knee problem! Shesky was sound after a day on boxrest, then got Lymphangitis and was bouncing around the yard, so imagine how mortified we were when the x-rays showed 14 degrees of rotation!!!
There were some similarities in both, even though Pasha has Cushings and Shesky EMS, both had fat pockets above the eyes and both were unresponsive to hoof testers, yet reacted to coronet pressure!
Abscesses are very common with Lami and so I think your vets are probably right and best to treat as such anyway as it won't do him any harm at all!
Regarding the whole hay/haylage debate! Haylage is not ideal as it's fermented hay and can cause imbalances in the hind gut which can be a contributory factor to Lami BUT saying that, some horses are fine on it, so I would listen to your horse and if he gets an upset tummy take him off it.
Feed wise Happy Hoof is Lami Trust approved so I won't say anything about that, it is personal choice! Any non mollassed, low starch feed should be ok, but you need to make sure he is getting all his vits and mins as his body will need all the help it can to get over this. Any general purpose vit and min supplement should od the trick, but given you are using haylage, it maybe worth getting one specific for haylage use i.e. the Naf Haylage Balancer or something with yeast in it, like the specialist Lami Balancers or Pink Powder
I feel your pain as Pasha wasn't covered by his Insurance as he was too old when he got it, but my Insurance Co covered SHesky's initial bout and then his EMS treatment a year and a half later, although it took some convincing and they insist on labelling it 'Cushings'!!! |
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Edited by - Pasha on 14 Sep 2011 2:56:15 PM |
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hazelcat74
Silver Member
472 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 3:07:40 PM
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| Don't have any more advice to offer but as the owner of a laminitic 19 yr old section A I really know how you feel, it is so worrying and awful to see them hobbling around. However I also know that they can get over it and be fine again with careful manangement, hope you soon seen an improvement. |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 6:24:20 PM
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| My "bilateral hindlimb laminitis" turned out to be sesamoidean ligament degeneration. Although the abscess(es) lend weight to the laminitis diagnosis, there are other causes of severe, bilateral distal limb pain & laminitis affecting just the hind feet is very uncommon. |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 07:34:51 AM
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I have seen Milly with a purely hind foot laminitis, a horrible bout five years ago which surprised the vets but then they had seen several bouts of it that week and we all wondered what OTHERR influences may affect a laminitic ( you hear so many odd stories about weather, barometric pressure, and even the moon phse ~ which DOES influence the female hormone cycles , so you DO begin to wonder.....!! ) so although it IS unusual, it DOES happen. None of us had the slightest idea why she went that time as the grass was non existant in a hot, dry summer, there was no change in other feed and she was fit as a fiddle and ridden daily in the school by my children and lOVING it!It can appear sometimes to have NO obvious cause.......which is why it COULD. looking back, have been a HORMONE SURGE and the beginnings of a pituitary issue....so even if the last tests were negative, I would agree whole heartedly with everyone who advises you to get another test as something may well have subtly and quietly changed with no outward sign and be influencing your boy in a very non~obvious way.
When you have exhauseted so many other routes it DOES get emotionally draining, no to mention draining to your wallet....and I send all my sympathies to you and Charlie and hope your problems are resolved very soon.
~Cate and Milly xx |
Fine Art & Photography
www.catehamilton.com
Cate Hamilton
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sharloam
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 08:49:37 AM
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Hi Pinknose
sorry about Charlie but definitely get him tested for cushings and insulin resistance using ACTH test. Recently my 13 year pure bred came out of stable one morning absolutely crippled. Looked like he had broken his pelvis. Long story short x-rays showed mild rotation in 1 fore foot and nothing in hind feet. However good blacksmith trimmed all feet and fitted imprint shoes on front relief almost immediately. Tests proved has got cushings started pergolide and now doing well despite developing ulcers from so much pain relief. Unbelievably my 21 year old Anglo stallion did exact same thing 3 weeks later. These stallions are not overweight or on lots of grass and have never shown any signs of lameness throughout their lives. Sod in front by same farrier every 6 weeks. Both came out absolutely crippled in the first horses case I have never seen a horse in so much pain and I have been a vet for 13 years. Both are now doing well but will need constant monitoring. The degree of pain they are in is not always related to the amount of rotation in the pedal bone. Please get yours checked for cushings it is a very simple test. Hope he improves soon
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Joan Parsons |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 12:59:40 PM
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Joan, I would like to thank you for mentioning IMPRINT shoes as I have read about them and wondered if anyone here had used them.
Maybe I could ask, how soon during the bout did you get the trimming done and shoes fitted as Milly's feet have grown so much as may be expected and the vet is still hesitant about getting this done and I am anxious as the toes are too long and surely this makes it all so much WORSE?. Milly has not had her toes trimmed for five weeks but the extra growth makes them look FAR worse than they otherwise would have been.
I hope I am not out of place asking on this thread as maybe I hope that apart from Milly, it may help Charlie or anyone else's horse who has a similar problem.
~Cate |
Fine Art & Photography
www.catehamilton.com
Cate Hamilton
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garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 5:35:46 PM
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| Red had two sets of Imprint shoes when he had lami last year. Initially his shoes were left on, usual deep shavings bed, Happy Hoof etc. and the Imprints were put on after X-rays showed rotation of pedal bones. I think each set of Imprints stayed on for 6 weeks; he then progressed to steel heart bars which went on twice and finally normal shoes. The farrier did say afterwards that he felt the Imprints should have gone on sooner to arrest the rotation so it would be worth asking your vet and farrier about this ASAP. Best of luck - I know how horribly stressful it is and Red was out of action from May to November last year. |
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pinknose
Silver Member
England
298 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2011 : 11:31:36 PM
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Good news! Pus burst out from the coronet band yesterday, Charlie's already much happier and starting to weight-bear again  However we still have the issue of the laminitis so got that to sort out now. The vet doesn't recommend testing for Cushing's etc yet as the tests may be affected by Charlie's high stress levels (makes sense)but I will definitely get him checked in a week or two. Next step is the farrier - are imprint shoes the plastic glue on ones? That's what the vet has recommended but to be honest they're out of my price range, is anything else good for the back feet? He still has heart bars in front, but obviously won't be able to have shoes nailed on just yet. Going to try and get some hay tomorrow (easier said than done round here!) and some balancer. I got Topspec Anti-Lam (I think!) last time, is that the best one or are there any alternatives? Will look for a haylage one though if I can't get him any hay though. Then need to pluck up the courage to call the vets to 'discuss' my bill, GULP!
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sharloam
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 08:32:23 AM
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| Imprint shoes as soon as poss Santros had only been shod in front the day before he went crippled and no sign of anything. Equine vets thought feet weren't bad enough to need further trimming or shoes but farrier disagreed and relief was almost immediate. Nito went crippled 5 weeks after shoeing again no signs so we didn't hang about and had imprints on him as soon as poss. One week on he is still sore but better and Santros is running around field fine. Santros due to have next set of imprints next week.They are the plastic glue on ones and look a bit like heartbars. As far as testing for cushings I would get it done as soon as poss they do adjust test levels to take into account season etc. Just re-tested Santros having been on pergolide for 4 weeks and will hopefully get results today. The sooner you test the quicker you can start treatment if positive. Very expensive though and I now have 4 on pergolide. Thank God i'm a vet. Hope Charlie and Millie feeling better soon. |
Joan Parsons |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 09:16:50 AM
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Thank you Joan, really very much appreciated.
Going to speak to our vet again today as I am sure the out of balance feet are causing matters to worsen and there comes a point where you have to act. Yes, Milly was also shod just before this bout and showed no signs of anything being wrong at all. There is only so much of this any pony or human caring for them can stand and the degree of "wait and see" is now getting to point where I wonder if they just don't fear being criticized or worse for recommending DOING something....it is harder to accuse anyone of doing not enough.... And the medical principle of " first do no harm" now seems to be being stretched a little too far. This bout has carried on, worsening by the day since the first week of August. Apparently meds are in today and I just hope they can turn down the hormones and turn down the "heat " on the feet. A good number of people have told me it HAS worked for their horse or pony, so fingers crossed.
Hope Charlie is happier now he has some relief from the pressure and starts to make a recovery.
I do wonder myself about the ACTH levels and the sheer STRESS of Milly's situation. I know little of how the result is measured....but 600..... Over 150 times the average level? Need to know more about this....one area I have not yet read up on as no one, and I find this incredible looking back over the last ten years, has EVER mentioned ACTH levels to me before.
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Fine Art & Photography
www.catehamilton.com
Cate Hamilton
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garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2011 : 5:00:08 PM
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| Re cost of Imprint shoes - are you insured for vet fees? NFU paid for Red's under Remedial Farriery - agree they seem terribly expensive for what they are! |
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Very bad laminitis - help!!!
