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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 8:01:17 PM
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I would like to know what you think of re breeding on the foaling heat.
Its not something I have ever done, but have been involved in discussion on the subject recently. If you had a late foal, would it be a good idea in order to gain some time the following year. Veterinary opinion it seems doesn't think so. Some breeders like myself prefer not to generally speaking but not totally against it if mare is in tip top condition. Other breeders, and I must say these seem to be more old school, one very respected breeder is in his 70's, think it is the best season to use, most reliable and totally fine to do so. They say this is what happens in the wild and those mares are rarely in such good condition as our precious well cared for girls.
Do any of you do this, ever, never or all the time.
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 8:33:18 PM
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We have covered in foal heat a few times over the years. Sometimes due to a late foal, and sometimes simply as as our 'old' ladies have their own ideas when they are 'ready' and we have wished to ensure these valuable veterans are 'caught', and if they say tonight is the night...or morning...or afternoon...then thats when it is.
We have not had any problems, as long as the mare is in good condition and she has not sustained any trauma or bruising from the prior foaling, hope this helps
Melanie
Guisburn Arabians |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 8:49:00 PM
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| Thanks Guisburn, for your experiences, I wondered if AI would be better for the mare than natural covering, but being less successful any way would the foaling heat be better for this method or worse, as I said some breeders think conception rates on this heat are better but the ones I have spoken to all mean by natural, never having used AI. |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 9:04:38 PM
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As I understand it the reason vets generally don't recommend covering on the foal heat is because there is a higher percentage of reabsorption of the embryo at an early stage, largely due to the fact that the uterus takes time to get back to its normal state post foaling.
Unfortunately I've never been organised enough to try it with my mares but I must admit having kids myself the thought of it so soon after birth does make me wince !! That said, animals are a whole lot more resiliant than us humans  |
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kathleen
Platinum Member
England
1835 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 9:13:59 PM
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| If Alliya's dam Katalia was left untill after the foaling heat she never scanned in foal covered on her foaling heat she would take stright away.I never covered her foaling heat she was covered the next year as i bought her in foal that was returned to breeder and sadly lost her when Alliya was 5 months |
http://www.jollyfryer.com/ Great British Fish & Chips
susan.oliver70@ntlworld.com
    
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2011 : 10:53:49 PM
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We have covered our own and outside mares on faoling heats, and have known mares (like kathleen reported) that only hold if covered on foal heat. We wouldn't do it if the birth had been difficult / foal was massive / mares was in any way poor / showed to be still fluid-y etc.
It seemed that foal heats were more predicatble in days gone bay too, but these days some are showing in season 4 days after foaling and are off by 7 days post partum. Obviously we'd never cover such cases.
Like most things in breeding, there is nothing like knowing your mares..... no real experience of AI from mare side of things.
Good discussion though, will read on with interest |
    
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
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littlearabians
Gold Member
1323 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 09:37:20 AM
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I have quite often covered in foal heath and have never had any problems with this... having said that all my mares gets a jab of oxytocin after foaling to help the uterus contract and clean it self out.
the 2 times I have had embryo death has been covering on secong heath after foaling, my old vet used to say that was quite common as the foal at foot was taking quite a lot of the mares energy recourses.
never used AI... but might start trying, as Ive had a bad experience having mares out for covering this year. |
www.littlearabians.com
Classic Polish Arabians
Worcester based
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 10:08:59 AM
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I only do AI (fresh semen) and have a few times over the years done it on foaling heat, but only if the mare is a good doer with a foal, I want to gain time because of a late foaling, or in one mares case that she will not take in foal unless done on the foaling heat otherwise I have to wait til the following year. But even in her case I've only done two foals on, one year off.
In my opinion AI must be kinder, and less traumatic than a natural covering (especially as she has a new foal to worry about as well) whatever time you decide to do it. Also as stated above I would only do it if it was a text book foaling with no signs of trauma. |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 11:02:05 AM
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We use AI pretty much all the time, very occasional natural cover if mare has no foal and using a stallion close by. I refuse point blank to send my mares and foals or even just the mares without a foal away to stud. And even a nearby stallion not used if mare has foal at foot. And agree with you on AI being kinder for mare especially on foaling heat. Just wondered about success rates with fresh / chilled / frozen at this time.
Thanks to you all for your input, most interesting, and looking forward to hearing from more of you, about your opinions on this subject. it seems it is just vets who are really against it, many breeders have positive experiences.
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 11:30:29 AM
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I think with AI one of the breeders on AL (cant remember who) was right, because it is still not as successful as natural covering % wise, it is well to go for a regularly bred proven broodmare with no difficult breeding history, preferably under the age of 13, using semen ideally from a proven stallion.
We have tried frozen without success, but I think this was more down to the history of the mare and lack of veterinary monitoring, decided not to bother due to the cost of vet, livery, stud fee. Have collected from our own boy now, but just tested his..... to chilled in case of need for the same mare, regretting not freezing as he has had a bad injury since! Busy riding mare instead!
Melanie |
www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 2:39:16 PM
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| I think Donna was referring specifically to covering on the foal heat ? So soon after giving birth, the mare no matter how good the foaling, is bound to have some degree of discomfort, and in my experience, while some mares are happy to be covered naturally with a foal at foot, provided they can see the foal, others definately are not. At least AI allows the mare to stay in contact with the foal, and without the danger of being near a rampant stallion. That is how I read Donna's post, and I totally agree with her |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 4:10:25 PM
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I am inclined to agree with you Suelin , I have no trouble getting mares in foal first time with my own stallion , yet using AI this year I started in March tried every month and still dont have a pregnancy ! too late now this year. AI can be such an expensive thing as what with veternary packages at £500 a cycle, but I needed outcross stallions on my stallions daughters ! otherwise I would choose natural everytime, done correctly and safely it makes the mares settle easier, well I thinks so anyway  who says fools bred horses for wise men to buy? |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 5:47:36 PM
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Lots of different thoughts then. In my case it generally has to be AI as I don't stand a stallion and don't send mares away. I agree it's damned expensive and less successful. I asked original question as opinions seemed to vary on success rate on foaling heat regardless of method used, so I was wondering, given the reduced chances using AI anyway would the foaling heat improve the chances or reduce them further or not alter them significantly. fully understanding that natural covering gave the highest % but as I said, not an option. Just can't decide whether to try the foaling heat or wait for the next one. She will be foaling late next year so would like to try it, but not if general opinion was that it would be highly unlikely to be successful.
From the replies so far it does seem the old guys had a point about the reliability, as most of you have had good results. |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 6:32:07 PM
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Yes guys I did mean a natural covering on a newly foaled mare, she will have discomfort to a certain degree and also those first few days can be very foal proud. I have used almost entirely AI for years and would not do it any other way now, rampant stallions and nervous/stroppy maidens used to be a major headache.
My success rate with either fresh or chilled semen is exactly the same as with natural. I do agree though that frozen is a different kettle of fish and I tend to avoid it, although in saying that I covered one mare frozen last yr and she took first time. BUT as stated above you need a healthy mare with a good reproduction record and even more importantly DECENT frozen semen. A lot of people I have spoken to this year have been sent absolute rubbish from famous stallions.................. |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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bumble
New Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2011 : 7:58:59 PM
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| I have used frozen semen on a maiden mare who will not show to a stallion and shows no sign of being in season and it worked on the 2nd attempt so pls don't be put off because sometimes its worth taking a chance on i have a beautiful filly this year by AI.AI is kinder on the foaling heat and less traumatic for foal and mare and they also check internally and make sure everything is nice and healthy , hope this helps x |
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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2011 : 08:02:21 AM
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Do agree with you pashon, I have witnessed many natural covering having worked on several studs and I think suelin is right that the mares rarely worry too much, but this is due to hormones dictating their behaviour. I don't believe any mare is ever keen because she enjoys nooky, but because mother nature tells her to be so, and many focus on the stallion and not their foal at this time. The foal itself is a different matter. I have seen so many babies terrified by the experience and totally disregarded by the people involved that I don't let mine out of my sight. That aside, I feel AI would be easier physically for the mare if using the foaling heat and as bumble said, an opportunity to check all is as it should be with her.
The success rates being reported have encouraged me to give it a try. But as you say pashon frozen not best idea. And like you I have heard reports of dreadful quality from some top stallions. Wasn't there someone on here reporting they had paid big money for frozen from a top stallion that turned out to be 5% progressive motility. ( YES 5%) Never going to happen with that is it |
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Edited by - gem@oakmeister on 04 Sep 2011 08:08:14 AM |
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Avonbrook
Silver Member
287 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2011 : 08:31:18 AM
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I have once covered on foaling heat and that was to bring forward the dates (natural covering after a straightforward birth, cleared by the vet and successful). Its not something I do lightly though. I also wonder, particularly with an older mare about uterine tone at this stage.
Having said that, when I was growing up, I knew TB breeders who covered on foaling heat routinely if they had a mare that had missed on the first cycle the previous year and I don't remember any big problems. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. That, of course was all natural covering.
As a mare owner too I have mixed feelings about the huge rise in AI. I fully appreciate all of the advantages and have had a mare and foal come back from stud before in poor condition when grass was short and no supplementary feed given (a top sportshorse stallion). I do wonder, however, if sometimes science can get mares in foal who wouldn't otherwise for good reason and then go on to have horrendously difficult labours. And that if they nonetheless foal successfully whether a herditary difficulty will be passed on. It is already being argued that the ability to "pinch" twin foals has led to twins surviving that then go on to breed and themselves are prone to twinning thus leading to a rise in the horse population of twin pregnancies.
Rowena |
  
www.avonbrookstud.co.uk |
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gem@oakmeister
Silver Member
421 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2011 : 09:38:28 AM
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| Very valid points Rowena. Much food for thought. |
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The breeders amongst you, thoughts please.
