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Kharidian
Platinum Member
 England
4297 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 3:59:38 PM
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At my yard we have >20 geldings out 24/7 on 45 acres (summer) which is grazed all year by two old cows too and in the winter on a separate 15 acres with ad-lib hay in big racks.
We all worm with Equest in June and December, and with Equest Pramox in March and September.
This year, two of the geldings have had pin-worm (apparently it is quite a year for it, so the Vet said) and are being treated. One of these boys additionally had tape-worm eggs seen in a dung sample, and we are awaiting confirmation (or otherwise) from a blood test taken by the Vet and sent to Liverpool.
YO requested that we all do a worm count and (apart from the above)everyone has come back as <50 epg apart from one horse who had >200 epg of Strongyles, I think (but was overdue for worming).
Some of the liveries are suggesting we all do the 5-day Panacur Guard. Is there a need for this? We used to use this as part of our programme when we used to use Strongid as the basis of the programme i.e. before Equest (which covers encysted redworm).
I'm happy to do it if there's a rationale, but surely we've covered all the worms, including encysted redworm with Equest and Pramox? I know the worm count doesn't cover pin worm, but these have been diagnosed via clinical signs; and the worm count is effectively zero.
Opinions, please
Thanks,
Caryn
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Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
     
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 4:59:41 PM
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I think I'd check with my vet Caryn. We used to be on a yard where a certain faction was very keen on everyone worming at frequent intervals, Harley ended up with colic, so we are wary now. We get dung samples for each of our six individually analysed at the vet's and then worm each one as per the vet's recommendation, rather than going for a blanket worming program. Of course it is easier for us now because we own all the equines on the yard.
Edited to add
We use Equest and Equest Pramox on the vet's recommendation |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 16 Oct 2010 12:50:21 PM |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 12:12:24 PM
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We use the same programme as you but we rotate the make of wormer so next year will not use Equest, this is what my vet has told us to do, I thought the green Equest covers for encysted red worm too so I would think you would not need to bother with the Panacur equine guard, but I would ask your vet, I have not had much experience of pin worm what are the clinical signs for it?
I too have stopped the worm counts as so many worms cannot be detected it seemed pointless. |
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marionpack
Gold Member
England
1073 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 12:46:28 PM
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| This is interesting, this year I wormed with equest plus and my filly passed a white worm about every 10 days for 8/10 weeks, had a worm count done came back clear, she then passed another, so I wormed her with eqvalan, didn't pass anything, then I read a thread on here about a yearling who died of worms (even though it had been correctly wormed with different wormers) it turned out that these wormers had different active ingredients and the wormer that was needed was Strongid P, I think you will find that Equest, Eqvalan and Stongid all have different active ingredients which will deal with different worms |
Berkshire
   
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Nichole Waller
Gold Member
England
1168 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 3:32:33 PM
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Hi Caryn,
I've been using the dung testing method for a few years now and it works well. Both my horses are in separate fields and live on their own. I test the dung in March, June & Sept and worm accordingly.
So far my mare has come back with <50epg each time so she has only had Equest Pramox in Autumn (normally end of Oct).
When i bought Ozzy last year i tested him straight away and his was 350epg and i was advised to worm him with Equest Pramox as he was new to the yard and they said this wormer did everything.
He was tested again in Sept 09 and was <50epg. As he had had the Pramox in June and his count in Sept was <50epg i was advised to use Equitape (for tapeworm in the Autumn) instead of using Pramox again.
March 2010 the were both <50epg. In May 2010 i let me nieces two horses graze Ozzy's field as the grass had shot up and he was getting a little porky  . I poo picked it every day. My nieces horses are wormed but only when they remember....!
When i did my June 2010 count Ozzy was 450epg and my mare was <50epg (no eggs seen). My nieces horeses had obviously contaminated my field... . I wormed Ozzy with Pyratape P (at the advise of the place i buy my wormers when i told her the count results)
In Sept 2010 my mare was again <50epg but Ozzy's was 1050epg . I couldn't believe it and i phoned the worm testing place to find out what i was doing wrong (I poo pick daily, sometimes twice a day)
They said i had used the wrong wormer in June, i should have used Equest. They explained that because Ozzy was young his immune system wasn't as good as my mare's and that's why she was showing as <50epg and his wasn't. (she had also grazed the filed where my nieces two horses had been) They advise that i worm him with Equest Pramox to completely clear him out. I will have him tested again at the end of Dec to make sure he is clear.
My mare will have her Pramox as usual at the end of Oct and as Ozzy had his Promox end of Sept and this lasts 13 weeks, this will take him up to end of Dec.
Sorry for long post but i thought it would help explain some of the problems with worm counts / grazing with others etc.
I don't think you need to give Panacure Guard if you used Pramox in sept. The worm count place i use have said that you can have a field full of horses all grazing together and some can have a high worm count and others can have none. This is why they (and the Vets) are advising that you worm count regularly and only worm when you need to with the right type of wormer (i.e. the right drug for that particular worm). This way horses don't build up an immunity to the drugs used in the wormers and they are therfore more effective. The horse that came back with the >200epg count needs to be wormed and the rest of you with <50epg should be ok.
Hope this helps..? |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 6:27:28 PM
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I have also had a problem with pin worm this year, until we realised that here they have become resistant to ivermectin & moxidectin.
I thought everything had been covered by using Equest & Equitape, but only febental (I used Exodus) killed the pin worms.
My egg counts were 0.
That was a lesson to me to keep on rotating wormers & to only worm those with definite burdens to slow the rate of resistant strains developing. I have relied on Equest for encysted redworm larvae for the past 6 years, so will definitely have a change to 5-day Panacur this time. *Oops, sorry, Exodus is pyrantel, that's what has been effective against pin worm* |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
Edited by - ella on 19 Oct 2010 07:31:33 AM |
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Kharidian
Platinum Member
England
4297 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2010 : 8:35:33 PM
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Thanks everyone - I've really opened a "can of worms" with this "thread" (both pun intended)!
BTW The horse with the evidence of tapewormn in the dung sample has had the result confirmed by blood test - VERY high readings! Owner was advised to use double-Strongid and then re-test (blood) in 5-6 months as, before then, the antibody levels in the blood will give as false-positive reading.
Caryn |
Kharidian (Prince Sadik x Khiri)........ Alkara Cassino (H Tobago x Rose Aboud)
aka "Roger".................................... aka "Chips"
The first image is from an original painting by Pat Shorto.
South-East Essex |
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haggis
Silver Member
England
278 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 12:28:33 AM
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All good advice above. Resistance to wormers seems to be spreading faster than I thought. Resistance develops with the repeated exposure of the worms to the same chemical and develops faster if an insufficient dose is administered.
Please don't worm routinely, don't worm horses with a roundworm egg count of less than about 200, find out about parasite life cycles, relate them to weather and temperature conditions locally, and then use the right product for the parasite causing the problem.
I have found , as mentioned, that young horses need more monitoring and treatment, but so do some of the oldies (over 20 ).
We are in danger of losing two of the drugs licensed for horses, if we use them carefully they may last a few more years.
Rotating your grazing with other species is a fantastic way of hoovering up horse worm eggs. |
    
CUMBRIA |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 07:41:06 AM
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| Further to my previous post, the reason that the vet wanted us to have their droppings analysed and worm accordingly was to avoid the parasites building up a resistance to the existing wormers. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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haggis
Silver Member
England
278 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2010 : 10:41:37 PM
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| That's brilliant , it sounds as if you are on top of your job! |
CUMBRIA |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 01:00:03 AM
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Just adding, after speaking to the local supplier, He tells me that all the red worms picked up from the grazing after the first hard frost, will be encysted redworm. These are the ones that live in the wall of the gut and all migrate at the same time in the spring..sometimes causing problems, for the younger and older horses...These are the ones that do not show up on Dung Testing (same as Tapes)..and these are the ones that used to be treated with the 5 day Panaquer Guard. Eqest(green) is the ome that folks use now..later in the year , but before they migrate...
Is there any experts on here that can give us the low down..on this please.
I've just done mine with E Pramox...which lasts for 13 weeks...and I will be fitting in a worming for Ensisted Redworm in 13 weeks...
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Worming programme - advice please
