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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
 United Kingdom
288 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 11:02:45 PM
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Nemax is a German Riding Pony Stallion and looking at his pedigree on Allbreeds and The Sport Horse Breed Database there does seem to be considerable amount of arab blood (as well as welsh) in this pony. I have got him to 27.25% arab and then I think I found some more!!! Were the arabs in his pedigree standing in Germany and or did they originate from UK? I would love to know the arab history behind these European Dressage Ponies.
The more I look into these German Riding Ponies the more I am finding that the "top" ones are Arab/TB with a dash of British Riding Pony and or welsh and not a lot of "warmblood".
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Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 09 Oct 2010 09:27:47 AM
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 02:09:11 AM
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Leaving the link to allbreeds.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nemax
On the Welsh side, there is two imports, that are listed on here, Sahara 1908 and Crawshay 1880 ?, both Arabian/Barb Imports.(Sahara has a posting on Arabian Lines under Pedigree's & Breeding).
Also on the Welsh side, Dr Wynne Davies book,Welsh Ponies & Cobs, gives information about many of the early Welsh ponies, from the time the Welsh stud book started. Sahara was turned out on the Welsh Hills to run with the Mountain ponies, he only produced Grey ponies.
Many of the British Officers returning from the British Empire brought back there chargers, and many of these were or had Arab or Barb blood, some were accepted into the British Arab Stud book.Many of the others that came to England, were small TB's and many of these were basis of the Riding Pony. Radnorshire Polo and Riding Pony Company, were cross breeding very early (Bleddfa) and Miss Wentworth (Crabbet).
If you go back to the 1900's on the Arab side, some of these were early imports or bred in England from the early imports.
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 10 Oct 2010 02:31:14 AM |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 4:04:00 PM
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Thank you so much Sue, I have been reading your posts and find the bloodline history fascinating, that's why I asked. The AHS has just returned the reg for Antsar Double Delight (FS Dr Watson)and some arab blood has been found in his pedigree. I was going ask about Bwlch Valentino and then previous AL posts came up trumps and gave me the history.
I would like to go back with my Welsh B's & Welsh Part Breds to Arab or Anglo Arab rather than PBA. Having the experience of breeding from 2 very different types of Pure Arab Mares (September Shade & Maria bint Lavado), I am now looking for a specific type of Stallion and the Arabs I see at the Shows seem to be progressing in another direction. There are some photos of Nemax showing his movement at pferede-aus-verden-de, zucht, deckhengste, nemax.
Again thanks to all the contributors of Pedigrees & Bloodlines I wish I had access to all this info years ago!
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 10:23:54 PM
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Your Double Delight has one line that goes back to Solway North Wind, I used this stallion in 1968, his first or second season. I useed to help out at the stud and met serveral of the Twyland ponies.
Cheers Sue. |
Sue
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2010 : 10:36:08 PM
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| I also have Chinook Melissa (Twylands Prose/Twylands Mingnonette) she's been with us 12 months and we've had a bit of an epic with AI this season and is due to foal next July. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 12:31:42 PM
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Small world, spent much of my pony years at Chinook, Twylands and Trelleck bought a small TB mare and Bwlch Zephyr foal off me in 1970, know both the sire and dam of your filly well, and the lines like the back of my hand.
Cheers Sue |
Sue
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 4:45:12 PM
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| Sue have you written a book about all these wonderful bloodlines and the history behind them? |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 8:24:05 PM
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Hi Hazel, No not yet. I remember Mingnonette and when she was born, I also remember seeing her with Mr & Mrs Davies in Wales. I also met Tara,North Wind and Minuet. Mrs Grant Parkes of Twylands lives quite close to me. I bet she's got lots of photographs of these ponies, she always kept a very full photo alban of the ponies. Did you get Melissa direct from Chinook..
Sue
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Sue
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 10:26:38 PM
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No Sue, Melissa came via Durleyhall Stud and they put her to Springers Cracker Jack resulting in a Palomino Colt foal (born 2009) which they have now sold to the Washbrook Stud. Melissa has had a very successful ridden career and I'm hoping to get all her results from the BSPS at some point. The photo was taken 2009 at the NPS Champs when she was shown by Durleyhall.
photo by Equinational
Melissa's full sister Chinook Easter Magic (2004) came 7th at HOYS in the RP 128 cms & under class last year 2009 and just noticed that she came 3rd this year. Melissa is 134 cms. This year was rather eventfull re stallions but next time I am going to use a 148 cms RP Stallions eg Willowcroft Regal Bronze, Rotherwood Peeping Tom - there are so many to choose from so could do with some advice re mixing the bloodlines - what do you think?
Melissa is 15yrs. |
Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 11 Oct 2010 10:29:08 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 12:44:15 PM
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Hi Hazel, Thanks for posting the pic... I'm still wondering if your in England or Germany...The last time I went to see the Davies's at Chinook they had got the dam of your mare, she must be getting on a bit now. They thought the world of her. I wonder if there are any photo's about of her, I do remember when she was born at Twylands and also I remember some of the others in her line...just wish I'd have had a camara and took pictures then. I first met Wilf Davies in 1970,we were both stood in line next to each other in the yearling class at Madresfield Show. They had Blyford Chinook in those days, before he went on to the riding, and kept the Bwlch Firebird colt, Wild Fire. Those were the days.....Nimlat who posts on here was also into the ponies around that time, she was at Rosevean Stud at Worcester and was there with Bwlch Zephyr, Hill Wind and many of the others..she's normally got a few pics about. Have you seen the pics she's posted on these threads...??
I'm not the person to be asking about stallions, as I'm out of it now, very interested in the breeding and still trying to complete the Valentino side of the pedigree, for Cigarette & Silver Spray. Regal bronze looks a nice boy and I'm also more interested in the bigger ponies,maybe those with a little more TB in the back ground than the Welsh, although my North Wind filly (Floret) never went over 13.2hh.
Have you got many photo's of the ponies in Melissa line... I'm just wondering if there's any I might be able to get hold off.
I'm no longer involved in the BSPS or the NPS, I'm now more interested on a day to day basis in the Pure bred Arab...who's racing or doing endurance..I really do like a performance horse these days. I had a PBA riding horse 15.2h, when I retired from work and ride a 16h coloured 3/4 TB now and keep a French X bred Arab -Tollard Park dam lines(good mover), but never heard of Warmblood in the pony breeding before... must be a German thing.
I only ever saw Bwlch Valentino once, when he was older and living at Eckley's at Hay on Wye,( other side of the hill to Wilf & val Davies of Chinook), Valentino came galloping down the hill to meet us at the gate...a wonderfull sight to see and remember, thats when he was pure white and about 18 years old.
Let me know what part of the country your in..and about the photo's maybe I can chase a few for you and allbreeds...
Sue
PS, I found two of Dr Winn's books Welsh Ponies & Cobs on ebay yesterday for £5+... in case your interested in going back in the breeding.
Pic of my coloured,(all horse no pony).
 doing a 20m at Delemere Forest.
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 26 Oct 2010 11:53:14 AM |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 11:18:29 AM
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I'm definitely in the UK - Staffs Moorlands having moved from Cheshire 11 yrs ago. Our prefix is Antsar and I do have a website and the link is below. I don't have any other photos of Melissa's line other than the ones which are on allbreeds and would love to see some.
I made one journey to Cusop and was fortunate to see Cusop Disciplin who is Grand Sire of our 1st born Antsar Eddie (Courtway Viscount/September Shade). I bought a fantastic 13hh worker pony (Aladdin) for my son purely as he was by Courtway Viscount (Cusop Disciplin/Courtway Valeta). It was due to Margaret Lloyd (El Prendero) & the BD Pony Team Trainer Ian Woodhead telling me that Antsar Eddie was related to the Danish Bronze Medal winning dressage pony through the British breeding that started me on the Sports Ponies. Both Eddie and Aladdin with selected for training at Central BYRDS (British Young Riders Dressage Scheme) and my "addiction" has just grown uncontrollably from there!
Liz Mansfield Parnell (Rotherwood) has been a big influence not only by using Strinesdale Matador but also very helpful and so willing to give advice.
This weekend is the SPSS (Sports Pony Studbook Society) Mare & Stallion Grading and In Hand Show. It is always very interesting and always quite a few welsh breeding. The Stallions include
Silver Zaanif – Pure Bred (Lutfi Pasha/Imperial Silver Lace)
Bernwoode Broadway S.Bernwode Brokat who’s by Brilliant and Brilliant is registered as Benedict of Piran with the NPS and had a name change to Brilliant after being exported (Sue I appreciate you will already know that!).
Runnon Quick March – (Deanhills Royal Jubilee/Star Edition)
Cruwys Flying Colours – (Cusop Disciplin/Knowle Aurica her sire Cusop Policy) really looking forward to seeing this one
Rotherwood Signature – Sec B (Douthwaite Signwriter/Rotherwood Half a Penny) another one I’m interested in as I have Antsar La Crème (2yrs) by Douthwaite Signwriter and Rotherwood Penny Picture Sec B (Lemonshill Top Note/Rotherwood Half a Penny).
Will definitely go on to ebay and look at amazon as they sell 2nd hand books as well. I still think you should document all your knowledge of these wonderful bloodlines as it is so complex for those just starting out!
Your horse looks stunning - name & breeding please!
www.antsarponies.com
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 8:54:44 PM
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Hi Hazel, I think i got it wrong, I think it was Mellisa's Gran Mother that I met at Twylands and her dam I met at Chinook. Have you been to see their ponies..
Your not that far away from me....I remember doing a 24m ride up in the Staffs Moorlands a couple of years back, lovely riding and good work out for both me and the horse, she'd put me off twice the week before at the Kelsall Cross Country course, too much grass, blew her mind...but the Manifold Valley just about sorted her out, this is us at the end of the day, both knackered and ready to go home... .Rose Collection..(Loretto Collection(US.TB)/Gortnana(by Irish. HIS x Coloured).Bought her at Malvern sale as an unbroken 5 year old. Just done 800kms competitive rides with her and poss double that amount in pleasure rides. Sort of looking for a stallion for her, but still hope to continue riding for a bit longer yet. Not as young as I used to be...riding ponies every day.
Still love the ponies and the Part bred Arabs, its in my blood, but much prefer the bigger one's, 14.2h's prefer...Having a jockey always dominated the size you have at home. Have to make the most of the riders while they're in the class. Will contact Mrs Grant Parkes (Twylands) and see what photo's she has about. I owe her a visit.
Mrs Mansfield had North Wind and Troubadour?? from Twylands.
I've found a couple of photo's of North Wind first outing undersaddle, at Malvern NPS show...as a 5 or 6 year old...my snaps..will post what I turn up..
I think it's Rodbaston- Nth. Staffs Arabs.. this coming weekend..might go.
Cheers
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 27 Oct 2010 11:55:17 PM |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 8:49:17 PM
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Thanks Sue and love your photo, she looks a lovely sort even from the backend! No I haven't been to Chinook and missed a chance of having a chat with Chinook Melissa's breeders at Fayre Oaks, but I was so preoccupied with selling our Skellorn Section B. It was such a coincidence that the people who bought our Sec B were the people I bought Melissa from last year, so I know she's gone to a fantastic home. I would certainly love to see some photos if you have any.
I'm not going to Rodbaston, tomorrow, as it clashes with the SPSS sponsored Young Dressage Pony Championships at Vale View Equestrian.
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ffynnoncadno
New Member
Wales
23 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 9:28:55 PM
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The more I look into these German Riding Ponies the more I am finding that the "top" ones are Arab/TB with a dash of British Riding Pony and or welsh and not a lot of "warmblood".
A warmblood is a hot blood ie.TB or Arab crossed with a warm or cold blooded horse ie. arab x cob =warmblood
If you look at the top bred warmblood's you will find a lot of arab blood
A warmblood is nothing more than a cross breed |
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Kunama
Bronze Member
England
66 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 07:17:26 AM
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| i think i'd call most warmbloods a hybrid rather thatn a cross bred, buit yes alot of those GRP's are made up of native, though the top ones like fs dont worry , casino royale k , and hilkens black delight carry a hefty does of warmblood too, the problem with this is that the warblood part is usually horse size so there is a chance, particularly if you cross with a boarderline mare or mare with a 'tall' pedigree that you will make an overhight pony, which is most definaely not the name of the game! |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 11:53:07 AM
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While talking about riding ponies, your referring to Children's riding ponies, I'd have said that the Warmblood, not only in size, but suitability for a child jockey..was not the choice.
Years ago in the 1950's and here in GBR I'd never heard of a Warmblood and certainly not in the riding pony lines that are so famous to us here. There was usually a three way cross, TB X Arab and then the native pony added and not in any particular order, just a percentage of each.The TB would usually be a Polo Pony some where between 13.2hh and 15hh. This has proved to be successful over and over again. When you breed to a 'known' riding pony line, they are normally idea for children to ride, suitability has always had to be top of a long list of credentials. Many of the Thoroughbreds have the most sensible of temperaments and make an idea out cross. In the 1900's there was a great shortage of children's riding ponies, this three way cross and using all those lovely TB Polo Ponies has followed on down the lines.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 04 Nov 2010 7:47:54 PM |
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garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 3:52:09 PM
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| Isn't a hybrid the result of crossing two different types of animal; eg horse and donkey, horse and zebra, lion and tiger etc? |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 4:52:09 PM
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Horses and Ponies are not different types of animals....Don't think you'd be able to get them BSPS registered or entered up into the showing class's or accepted for the NPS.
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 04 Nov 2010 7:44:03 PM |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 9:29:45 PM
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Thanks for the reminder & explanation of "Warmblood" - I needed that.
I suppose I was trying to initially say that top ponies eg FS Dont Worry, FS Champion de Luxe are the result of selective breeding including TB, Arab, Welsh & British Riding Pony bloodlines and I was suprised at how much arab blood was used initially. I do think our bloodlines were and are highly valued abroad as the Reitpony height gets closer to 148cms, an input of some more native and riding pony (British) is needed to bring the height down. Our fellow Europeans have refined the Reitpony ie Sports/Performance Pony and I feel we have the Native & British Riding Pony bloodlines which have evolved and with the careful use of the Reitpony Stallions we too can produce a similar Performance Pony.
Last Sunday at the SPSS Young Dressage Pony Championships there was a most amazing, movement wise, pony. The pony was called Madam's Miss Maria (NWPCS NWR) Sire: Woldhoeve's Silco (NWPCS NWR) Dam: Madam's Mirella (NWPCS NWR) http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/madams+miss+maria. This pony was bred in Holland and she is registered Dutch Welsh Part Bred. Looking back in her pedigree she is Welsh with Arab and British riding pony with some very famous bloodlines. Unfortunately as yet I have not found out the rest of her damline.
Please exuse the quality of the photos as it is indoors & I'm hopeless with the camera. The rider is Becky Moody
 
 
As I said this pony had a really expressive working trot and being 5yrs she was doing the 5 yr old Young Horse Test which is Novice Standard. The photos do not show her lengthen trot strides.
I feel having the Welsh & Riding Pony in my broodmares I am looking for the "right type" of pure Arab blood to use, hence my question of
"Were the arabs in his pedigree standing in Germany and or did they originate from UK?" in my original post.
Am I correct in finding the arabs seemed to be getting taller and the conformation and movement is changing, or are the orginal type of arab used as the foundation of these ponies still available? |
Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 04 Nov 2010 9:33:13 PM |
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garnet
Platinum Member
2382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 9:42:45 PM
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| I think we are at cross purposes here. I wasn't suggesting that horses and ponies are different types of animal but querying the definition of hybrid eg a mule is a hybrid produced by breeding a horse or pony to a donkey? |
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ffynnoncadno
New Member
Wales
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 10:36:48 AM
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My arab stallions are 14.2hh and my thoroughbred stallion is 15hh and are quite popular for breeding sports ponies,but my grey arab produces foals with very flashy and expressive movement with any mare.The other arab and thoroughbred are more average .... |
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ffynnoncadno
New Member
Wales
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 10:52:01 AM
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| Just had a loook at the breeding and it appears to have the same arab line as my arab mare and both stallions also carry the same lines so would be inclined to think the arab side originates in the uk????? |
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 2:08:54 PM
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ffynnoncadno may I ask the names of your stallions and do you have a website? If it's likely to be classed as advertising on AL would you pm me please.
www.antsarponies.com |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 4:40:18 PM
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Please could you PM me the details of your TB stallion too.
Jean |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2010 : 9:17:54 PM
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The base of the British Riding Pony is a Native pony - with Arab or Thoroughbred on top, either way. When I was with Mrs. Alexander (Forge
Farm)in the 1970s she transported a number of these registered NPS ponies to Germany, none over 14.2hh. The Thoroughbred stallions used by breeders would be under 15.0hh. The fear was that the offspring would go over height which would put them in the Hack classes. They weren't bred to make a "Warmblood". They were definitely bred to stay "Pony".
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Waterborn
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2010 : 7:43:52 PM
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Just looked at your website, some stunning ponies with great movement! Originally posted by Hazel CornesI'm definitely in the UK - Staffs Moorlands having moved from Cheshire 11 yrs ago. Our prefix is Antsar and I do have a website and the link is below. I don't have any other photos of Melissa's line other than the ones which are on allbreeds and would love to see some. I made one journey to Cusop and was fortunate to see Cusop Disciplin who is Grand Sire of our 1st born Antsar Eddie (Courtway Viscount/September Shade). I bought a fantastic 13hh worker pony (Aladdin) for my son purely as he was by Courtway Viscount (Cusop Disciplin/Courtway Valeta). It was due to Margaret Lloyd (El Prendero) & the BD Pony Team Trainer Ian Woodhead telling me that Antsar Eddie was related to the Danish Bronze Medal winning dressage pony through the British breeding that started me on the Sports Ponies. Both Eddie and Aladdin with selected for training at Central BYRDS (British Young Riders Dressage Scheme) and my "addiction" has just grown uncontrollably from there! Liz Mansfield Parnell (Rotherwood) has been a big influence not only by using Strinesdale Matador but also very helpful and so willing to give advice. This weekend is the SPSS (Sports Pony Studbook Society) Mare & Stallion Grading and In Hand Show. It is always very interesting and always quite a few welsh breeding. The Stallions include Silver Zaanif – Pure Bred (Lutfi Pasha/Imperial Silver Lace) Bernwoode Broadway S.Bernwode Brokat who’s by Brilliant and Brilliant is registered as Benedict of Piran with the NPS and had a name change to Brilliant after being exported (Sue I appreciate you will already know that!). Runnon Quick March – (Deanhills Royal Jubilee/Star Edition) Cruwys Flying Colours – (Cusop Disciplin/Knowle Aurica her sire Cusop Policy) really looking forward to seeing this one Rotherwood Signature – Sec B (Douthwaite Signwriter/Rotherwood Half a Penny) another one I’m interested in as I have Antsar La Crème (2yrs) by Douthwaite Signwriter and Rotherwood Penny Picture Sec B (Lemonshill Top Note/Rotherwood Half a Penny). Will definitely go on to ebay and look at amazon as they sell 2nd hand books as well. I still think you should document all your knowledge of these wonderful bloodlines as it is so complex for those just starting out! Your horse looks stunning - name & breeding please! www.antsarponies.com |
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ArabNemax German Riding Pony or Arab?
