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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 7:50:30 PM
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Well said all round there Lisa!
There have been 'pulses' of people having 'bred for Europe' (and it's still an addiction from what I can see) and the prices plummeting. I can't believe that I paid more for a 2-y-o filly ten years ago than you'd every be expected to now, but the prices fell dramatically after that, and we're back in that place again.
I think people have the equine equivalent of Rose Tinted Spectacles with their own horses. They know they need to sell, but can't see or admit to their own horses' faults or temperamental defects.
As my Mum always said: Honesty is the Best Policy!!!
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Roseanne |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 8:05:19 PM
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| Lol ! Roseanne I paid twice as much 20 years ago for a filly that was not nearly as good as "Ankis" the filly I am selling on this site,!! prices have gone down, while quality for the best part seems to have gone up ! |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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bernie
Junior Member
37 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 8:44:05 PM
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I am also looking for a horse at present, in fact the same horse as you, Susie T (perhaps we should compare notes). I must say that I am completely put off an advert if it specifies no timewasters and would not respond, as it comes over as so unwelcoming and I would rather not deal with a grumpy owner. Photos are a must and I agree about the ridden and conformation shots, but a close up head shot too (as I suspect many buyers looking for a ridden arab are a little soppy about the looks side of things).
Moorse I have found that the decent sane ridden arabs sell quickly even at the moment (too quickly for me so far). I did find the perfect gelding just after Christmas - grey 15 hands, beautiful, calm and cheerful- but sadly his owner decided after i'd booked the vet that she could not bear to part with him after all. Terrible shame for me, but I could certainly understand her as I would never have parted with him if only I could have bought him in the first place! There are so few arabs available for the normal general rider (let alone the not very good one like me) |
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Vicki M
Silver Member
England
294 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 10:43:02 PM
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I too don't mind talking to people for ever on emails and i will be as honest as i can when it comes down to my horses. There is no point in lying because if the potential buyer comes to see your animal. Then subsequently buys him and he has quirks, vices or faults that were not disclosed at the time of sale, then your poor beloved may end up for sale again within a short space of time.
Also no one to me is a time waster if they enquire about my horse or even if they want to come and visit and see the said animal for sale. Even if they ride and pick holes, bring someone else next time for their opinion. At least they have taken time to decide if the animal is right for them.
What I don't like is people making arrangements to come and then don't turn up, with no apology or further contact. I understand things may crop up but a phone call to explain would be nice so you haven't wasted the day waiting around for the invisible viewer. |
  
Vicki M
Al Karif Arabians |
Edited by - Vicki M on 25 Feb 2010 10:45:35 PM |
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debs
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 11:22:10 PM
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must be very frustrating for people with ohorses for sale, but do think for a moment for the people looking for a new friend. I drove around the country looking, and I was pretty specific what I was looking for, but after speaking with some owners did look at others.Most of the horses I saw were lovely just not for me...an emotional thing that you cant always specify. Can be really frustrating when you cant get a decent photo...or being sent a head shot? Was near on impossible trying to get a conformation shot.
One thing I did specify was a calm nature and relatively good manners, not a whirling dervish, was always assured that they were fine when in fact lots that I saw were absolutely not, and were handled very gingerly by their owners. One lady said she had quite an angry youngster because he was bored...thats fine, would rather people be straight, he was probably better mannered than most.
I think the timewasters and POA on ads is very off putting, was persuaded by a friend to ignore the PoA, which I did. Did make me giggle though when i heard a very nice lady nearly choke when she heard my budget...needless to say after saying she would get back to me, she never did! |
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nissibay
Gold Member
England
595 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 12:34:44 AM
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Debs thats funny i rang up ref a lovely filly that said POA, she asked for my budget and i said it and im sure she also choked on her digestive biscuits!!!! "we having nothing here less than £6000" she said. i was a bit embarrased so also i am put of by POA as i assume it must be to much for me!!!! it is hard trying to get good pix from sellers isnt it. also if they only have pics as a foal and its a 2 year old, if i was selling i would make sure i have an aray of recent pics. e-mail is good it doesnt waste everyones time and money travelling to see them. you can tell alot from a good picture!!! if its not "the one" end of story not wasting anyone time including my own. i went to see a foal who i was told was a certain colour and when i travelled 3 hours to see her, i was told they had put bets on that she will go another colour. i was not best pleased!!!! it goes both ways alot of owners can be time wasters for the buyers. making out they have what you want but they clearly dont!!!!!!!!! defo honesty is the best policy for both parties. the horses will appreciate it if they are in the right home!!!!!!!      |
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jaybird
Gold Member
France
1192 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 07:53:16 AM
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Hi
I was not been nasty Nissibay I only quoted you and I agree you definately cannot buy the first one you see unless of course it is the 'right one'. I went and looked at a gelding over here that was advertised but I should have known from the last sentence on the ad 'needs owner that understand Arabs' because this horse was an absolute nutrock and after seeing the antics within five mins I said to the seller 'sorry he's not for me', his answer was 'you need to understand Arabs and of course if he was better he'd be 5k' to which I said 'I think my understanding is better than yours' and left.
Beryl |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 09:22:59 AM
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Quote: "I think people have the equine equivalent of Rose Tinted Spectacles with their own horses. They know they need to sell, but can't see or admit to their own horses' faults or temperamental defects."
Oh so true words Rosie. I spent over 8 months last year trying to buy my new horse. Every single one I went to see had some sort of problem, or issue, or something that needed sorting out. They nearly all spooked and most of them were exactly what I would call "typical arabs" (sorry Lisa, I don't have experience of the calm collected ones so I don't think they exist). I ended up very cynical and will never buy an arab again, perhaps with the exception of a totally unspoilt youngster.
Moorse - if I were you I'd get someone who doesn't know your horse at all to come along and give you an honest opinion of your horse before you start seeing prospective buyers. That way you will know what potential questions you may come up against and you can be prepared - either by preparing your horse better for the sale (does his back, teeth, jabs, etc be done, saddle fits, does he need more schooling or desensitisation work, does he need to be fitter, will he jump at every puddle, does he hack out on his own etc.) or by preparing yourself for what potential buyers may say. |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 09:52:09 AM
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Shah, thats very sad to read! you would never buy an arab again? I have never believed there is such thing as a bad arab, only the bad habits owners have taught them . I hope one day you will meet one who will restore your faith in this most intelligent, sensitive and loving horse  |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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shah
Gold Member
England
1356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 11:09:01 AM
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| Well, although being a cynic I did end up buying an arab last year - who I love but who has issues that we're working on so he won't be 'the one' restoring my faith in the breed. We have an anglo on the yard, he's exactly the same, we had two pure bred fillies on my previous yard for a while, they were exactly the same. I've never met one that is 'cool, calm and collected', sorry but true. |
West Sussex |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 11:09:54 AM
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I agree, it's tragic if Tabita really won't buy an Arab again. I know there are fantastic specimens - I've had three long-termers who have been better than most others' horses, not to mention others I've backed for others.
There are, certainly, Arabs that are very 'sensitive' and I believe that is bred in on occasions (I've had two of those!) but I think good temperament is also bred in. Lance has inherited his mother Lalique's fabulous temperament, has given small children lessons and got my older sister back into riding again. He is much more reliable than her ID/TB mare. My next door neighbour's Dutch warmblood is a nightmare to hack out with she spooks so much.
And the little stallion Zakhahn is proving too be a wise old head on young shoulders - non-spooky, willing to work, fabulous on the ground and with great courage.
And equally, after inherited temperament, I am sure the handling and sensible starting - taking time and establishing deeply ingrained good behaviour and obedience - is the key. Jumping on horses and riding off is not proper 'starting'.
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Roseanne |
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moatside
Platinum Member
England
3224 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 11:55:50 AM
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Shah - have faith! Pearl is sooooo laid back and easy to do, takes everything in her stride and is really completely non-spooky. She is relaxed about new things and just so eager to please. Admittedly, she spent 4.5 years living in a natural herd situation so is/was totally unspoilt and very much cool, calm and collected to handle.
Roseanne -
"I am sure the handling and sensible starting - taking time and establishing deeply ingrained good behaviour and obedience - is the key. Jumping on horses and riding off is not proper 'starting'."
could not agree more.
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www.spanglefish.com/kasanarhythmbeads/ |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 12:02:42 PM
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I think over the years I have been lucky in finding great homes for youngster sold. But, what I have noticed, really in the last 5 or 6 years is we do have people looking who are not so terribly knowledgeable and who do not understand how much it costs to breed an Arab.
We used to have a market back in the 70's and even the 80's where if you advertised an arab for sale you normally put the ad in Horse & Hound, we had no internet then!
I can remember people actually fighting to get here and trying to gazump each other to buy a mare or filly. Your phone rang so many times you got tired of hearing it.
Lovely times and then almost everyone who wanted to buy used to be quite knowledgeable about horses in general.
They were attracted to the arab because they were beautiful and then, fairly rare.
I don't think we will ever get back to that stage again. It's no use saying on here, don't overbreed, I don't think that is the main cause of our situation, possibly more leaning towards those that breed anything with a pulse! These in this category can be a small breeder.
The big breeders do have the space to keep those they breed whereas the small chap usually doesn't, so they offer a horse for low money just to realise some space. Then the cycle of lowering prices has started.
People then compare your horse with another priced lower, that can be difficult to explain to them about breeding and quality, plus no need to let a horse go in a hurry, therefore no need to ask for a low price.
These are just my observations over the years. Also nowadays I have noticed we do seem to have some dreamers around, those that want an Arab, a good one and can never possibly afford it.
I have always felt it better to buy any horse at weaning so you can determine it's lifestyle to suit you. But those that want a ridden horse rarely wish to wait that long. Just jot down the £1,200 a year just to keep that youngster, plus your covering fee etc and calculate the costs to the breeder! Handling, care and breeding is apart from all the basics.
I'm afraid my view now is, if you want my horse fine, buy it, if not....go away, it is not a secondhand car to haggle over.
Glad I only sell one a year!! (if that now!) |
Edited by - SueB on 26 Feb 2010 12:04:24 PM |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 1:07:17 PM
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Well said SueB. There will always be a market for a good horse and as a small breeder I am fortunate to be able to keep my horses until the right home comes along. I try to price them fairly but I will not sell them “cheap to anyone”. The boys never leave the stud entire, so my costs include gelding them. I also have to take into consideration the stud fee and keep of the mare until foaling and all the extra expense that involves plus the cost of rearing said foal.
I never class anyone as a time-waster – we are always delighted to show our horses to visitors, all I ask is they take us as they find us!! We don’t have staff so they may have the odd wind knot or mud on them but they are happy, healthy, well fed and cared for.
We have decided to price our stock on a * system on the website, this gives people an idea of what is available and if it is within their budget, but we are always willing to negotiate slightly to a good home.
The last horse we sold, the people came a long way to see the stock we had available – said they were spoilt for choice but eventually decided on one (who we were quite looking forward to producing under saddle later on) but the home was superb, so we were happy to let him go.
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Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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alethea
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1526 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 1:29:52 PM
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The market always picks up now that we are heading towards the spring so it is a good time to think about advertising.
But in saying that, a good horse will sell at any time of the year (in my experience) as long as the price is realistic.
From what you have said about your boy, the price you are thinking of asking sounds about right.
Dont put no timewasters on the advert. I always wonder why people do that as it makes you seem unapproachable and you will lose potential buyers. When you read an advert for a horse you can never be sure if it is right for you from a few words. You need to ring up and go and see it etc... when sellers put no timewasters it puts people off even picking up the phone to enquire as they are worried they will be branded a timewaster if they do not buy it without fail!
Often you go and see a horse which is nothing like described so that is the fault of the seller, infact they are the one being a timewaster, for misleading information or being barn blind!!!
Works both ways, but alot of sellers fail to see this
Alethea
Aristotle Arabians |
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Ryans_gem
Silver Member
England
262 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 1:31:48 PM
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Originally posted by lisa rachelI agree entirely with everything Roseanne and Lyndilou have said, which goes to show the irony of the situation we are in, Lyndilou rightly contends that there is overbreeding warns of the uncertain futures that many young Arabs face, whilst Roseanne equally correctly states that it is not actually easy to find a good ridden Arab!!! I think is worth reflecting on why this should be the case. I have said many times and upset a few people, which I am sorry about  , but will say again  , in my opinion every Arab bred, should be bred with a view to being of the physical and mental calibre such that he or she will make an excellent riding horse. This is the essence of the breed. I am not for one minute saying that the horse should not have, or indeed would not benefit from ,an in hand showing career as a youngster. I just believe that he or she should have a bright future as a ridden horse waiting when he or she hits 4 years old and not the prospect of sales/unsuitable homes/ irresponsible breeding/dogmeat. 'she's very good isn't she ...FOR AN ARAB!!!'  I always reply 'of course she's good ... SHE IS AN ARAB!'  PS I am very tired of seeing welfare issues this winter most could be avoided by heeding Lindylou's warning to breeders ... it is a massive responsibility to breed a horse, and finding the right home is part of that responsibility, if less horses were bred and they were more expensive to buy it would be no bad thing, they are after all very expensive to keep. Sorry to rant 
Unfortunately one of my biggest pet hates are people who breed off broodmares but the mare is never broken and ridden I think this creates a welfare problem in the sense that the poor mare has no value when she is not able to produce any more foals for whatever reason and when there are quite simply no homes for all these horses yet people still breed like them like a disease. Somebody please tell me why so many arabs are left unbroken and why breed from stock that has never been proven under saddle it really is frustrating that too many arabs these days are quite simply pets.
Some people just seem to breed as 'something to do' and don't seem to have a clue what they are breeding like anything goes if you get my drift as long as they get a couple of hundred for the poor horse. When someone breeds and sells a horse is up to 25 plus years worth of bad homes and being passed from pillar to post really worth a couple of hundred pound or maybe a few grand?????
I firmly agree with all the above quotes but it seems you can't even give a horse away in this time of recession never mind sell it's not the intial cost of the horse that is the problem it's the upkeep. |
  
My horse is my very best friend. Nothing in the world can separate us. When he dies I know he'll be waiting for me at the gate... just like always.
A horse doesn't care how much you know, untill he knows how much you care.
~ Pat Parelli ~ |
Edited by - Ryans_gem on 26 Feb 2010 1:34:19 PM |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 2:06:09 PM
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I am not quiet sure what you are getting at there I bred horses that will do anything!, of course they can be ridden,! what a lot of people dont realise when they buy a horse is, we breed a foal and then often keep in to 3 to 5 years before letting it go to the home we hope will be the right one, how much do you think that costs? I calculate roughly £2,000 a year, so selling at three years old, will I get back £6,000? no! I will be lucky to get £3k, so where is the point in breeding? certainly not for profit. ( the saying goes Fools breed horses for wise men to buy)
It has been a joy to be a breeder and find wonderful homes for my one or two foals making frinds along the way, but that is sadly harder and harder to find. so much so that I am seriously going to have to rethink my position as a breeder |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 2:31:38 PM
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If you buy from a breeder, just do some research and look at what that breeder has bred before. If they have sold horses that have gone on to do what you are looking for then you are looking at the right breeder!
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 4:15:06 PM
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Ryan's Gem I agree with you about brood mares never being backed but from the point of view that I think any breeding stock should be tried under saddle. How otherwise would you know if the horse has, and is likely to pass on, a good temperament as a ridden horse?
I agree less on the point that they're good for nothing after you stop breeding with them. After Linda Hannaford (Millbrook Stud) died so very prematurely, all her broodmares were backed before being sold as riding horses (Gold Lucretia, Farette Gold, Winter Queen, Rislina to name three). All but one has continued to have useful ridden lives in very successful partnerships - though two have gone back to being a brood mares for their wonderful bloodlines.
These mares were all 10 or more - and in fact my boy Lance's mum, Lalique was backed at 10 after having four foals and went on to be HOYS Ridden Mare of the Year within two years! |
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bernie
Junior Member
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 5:09:30 PM
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| I must say this is all rather depressing. In my search for a sensible arab I have been to see 4 (the others all ruled themselves out on the phone for one reason or another). Two were good to ride (and I tried to buy both, but unexpected difficulties arose no fault of the horse); the other two were insane - the owner had to jump off one while demonstrating how suitable it was for a relative novice, and the other tried to kill me. If I had been looking for any other breed of horse I'm pretty sure that with a reasonable budget, willingness to travel, and so on I could have seen dozens of suitable horses by now - after 7 months of looking. From this forum in particular I have accepted the repeatedly expressed view that arabs are great riding horses - but I am beginning to doubt it, and wonder if Shah is right. |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 5:34:39 PM
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Bernie,
The right horse will find you,maybe you should stop looking for an arab and just wait until the right horse for you comes along.I am a great believer in fate,I went looking for a ridden arab and ended up with an 18month old arabian colt,who I have now broken and I adore him |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 6:51:04 PM
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| Sarah (Bernie) what exactly do you want? |
Roseanne |
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taranstorm
Gold Member
Wales
952 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 6:55:19 PM
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| Interesting topic as helped to see other people views! as i'm unsure whether advert my 10 months old purebred arab colt now or wait till spring when gets warmer,will remember not to add no timewasters please on the advert even had some people waste my time in past.All i want is find perfect home for him where he can go on do fun in few years with right owner/home,i always pay advert with option of no pictures as cheaper as but do have some lovely shots of him moving,face shots which i'm sure be good enough?and can email me asking to see the pictures if interested in him? |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 7:21:36 PM
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[right]Originally posted by shah
Quote: (sorry Lisa, I don't have experience of the calm collected ones so I don't think they exist). I ended up very cynical and will never buy an arab again, perhaps with the exception of a totally unspoilt youngster.
That is a real shame Shah, they are not brain dead plodders of course but I love them , they will try their hearts out for you and mine day after day left me absolutely in awe during our ride to Jordan. They simply could not have been more cooperative, enthusiastic and tireless companions, they made a difficult life a simple pleasure. I am absolutely rubbish at techno things so can't post photos
But I have photos of our horses in Turkey being held on an open deck of a huge ferry, crossing the Dardanelles, packed with coachloads of Kiwis and Aussies celebrating the 90 year anniversary of the Gallipoli campaign. They did not bat an eyelid , just enjoyed lots of pats and treats from admiring passengers. We rode them through French towns on market days, through deep rivers, over the Alps, Carpathians,and Balkans , through crowded dusty towns in Turkey and the Middle East, followed by hoards of screaming children. They never ever let us down. I cannot speak highly enough of these horses, I really can't. They are high sprirted and even after thousands of miles of travel they would dance about and play if a good gallop was on the cards, but when the chips were down we could 100% rely on them every single time. I like this kind of horse, I really really do!
Going to watch the rugby
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 27 Feb 2010 08:03:31 AM |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2010 : 8:06:27 PM
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I like this kind of horse too, but they are not for everyone, and I think the very wound up ones are maybe in the wrong hands. They are so sensitive that they need a sensitive rider, and sometimes they need time and patience. I have had two purebreds---the first, Zanthar, was a perfect gentleman---as near perfect as a riding horse could be. Nothing fazed him and I could go anywhere and do anything on him in complete confidence--BUT, he was still very much an Arab. I used to get comments from "ordinary" horse people about how brave or foolhardy I was e.g. riding him on busy main roads, which totally bemused me, but when I thought about it, he still pranced and spooked a bit, but it was all for a bit of a laugh and he always felt totally safe. What they were seeing was an active, interested horse having fun, and noticing everything around him instead of plodding along, and they misinterpreted it as misbehaving.
My current boy, Zaharoff, is very different. I got him at age 7 when he had done absolutely nothing, and I think his early lack of life experience is to blame. He was,literally, frightened of his own shadow. I thought I was used to spooks, but he can spook at nothing and dramatically!!He has been a bit of a challenge, but there is no way he has put me off Arabs---quite the contrary. A kinder horse than Zaharoff would be impossible to find, and he would never do anything on purpose to hurt me. He is intelligent and very rewarding to own, and tries very hard for me---I just love him to bits.
It's interesting that this thread is running at the same time as the one about buying an Arab for a child. I would have put any child on Zanthar, and I know he would have looked after them. Zaharoff is very good around children, but there are very few adults I would allow to ride him, never mind a child---not for the rider's sake, but for his
Lisa Rachel---your link isn't working for me. It went to a page saying the domain name is registered. I want to see your photos! |
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Edited by - Zan on 26 Feb 2010 8:12:11 PM |
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Good time to sell?
