| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 09:59:12 AM
|
At the time the racing split was very corrosive to the Society and Arabs in general .
The Council had to go with the members vote to stay in the AHS which caused the majority of owners to set up ARO .
At the time I was appalled by behavior of some but eventually came round to the view that the right decision was to be ONE organisation (I E a combined remodelled system .)
Racing Arabs has frankly gone off the radar of the general public yet it potentially could be the engine to drive the owning and breeding of Arab horses
I say this because the cost of buying a good Thoroughbred is out of many peoples pockets but one could buy and race an Arab quite modestly.
This would mean the ordinary person could race Arabs
What a glittering prospect don't you think .
|
    
blue moon |
|
Report to moderator
|
|
|
barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 10:58:09 AM
|
Unfortunately it isn't as cheap as you make it sound, Alistair. We raced one of our Arab's for a season and it was expensive as I don't have the time or the facilities (or even the expertise) to do it myself. Sadly, we made a bad choice of trainer which I won't go into here and it was money down the drain and my horse came back a different person from the one I sent away. Fortunately she didn't have any lasting mental damage.
I also helped at the races for about 14 years with the AHS and later ARO and loved it. I agree that it has to be one system running Arab racing but it is now very different from what it was and much more professional, for good or bad.
Barbara |
    |
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 2:10:23 PM
|
i meant in comparison to Thorobred costs .
An Arab also costs less than a fraction compared to buying a racehorse. |
blue moon |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Jamana
Gold Member
England
682 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 2:37:19 PM
|
An Arab also costs less than a fraction compared to buying a racehorse.
Rather unfortunatley you can buy a race bred TB yearling for 800gns.  You can also easily get a 'breeze-up' for 1000-2000gns. That is a 2yo that is already broken and in light training. Training fees start from around £140/week. For £106 you can register as an owner and register your colours. So perhaps not as expensive as you might expect?
Agree though that the in-fighting between various Arab racing organisations does not help it's credibility. As far as the racing world goes Arabs are beneath P-T-P 'ers. Though at least the Racing Post will sometimes put the cards in, albeit without colours. There was huge uproar about the race after the Prix de L'Arc being an Arab race. Despite that being a condition of the sponsers of the meeting, and the fact it was a Gr1.
Helen |
     |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 3:07:53 PM
|
It seems Arab racing has changed to exclude the smaller owner/racer. There was a time - about 20 - 25 years ago when quite a few people owned an Arab and fittened it and raced it. Now it only seems to be bigger concerns and it seems to have lost that charm.
I remember the to-do when the ARO and AHS racing was in conflict and it seemed money spoke, but the result is that Arab racing appears to have become totally detached from the AHS and its ordinary members. Or maybe it's just that the racing people don't often mix with the show and pleasure Arab owners.
It would be fabulous to have a decent sized Arab show alongside a race meeting (Warwick or somewhere central). Do the race tracks allow use of some grounds and stables for other events. Could it happen? |
Roseanne |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 5:02:57 PM
|
Roseanne wrote:
"It would be fabulous to have a decent sized Arab show alongside a race meeting (Warwick or somewhere central). Do the race tracks allow use of some grounds and stables for other events. Could it happen?"
Gosh Roseanne There would be no chance of taking Ollie to that show!!! He'd blow a gaskit!! Wouldn't know which way to point his feet!! Lol! |
Edited by - Suelin on 20 Feb 2010 5:05:32 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 6:05:57 PM
|
| What a loveley idea Roseanne, we do have the rather under used great leighs racecourse,newly built with all the mod cons which has just changed ownership, now i will have the balls to go and speak to terry about it if someone knowledgeable will come and hold my hand and talk the technical stuff. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Sadika
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3520 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 6:11:06 PM
|
| The International B Show at Lingfield a few years ago also had an Arab racing programme - so it can be done but would take some organisation/forward planning. I would think the cost of having a show at a racecourse is one BIG obstacle ... however the N/W Group show is at Aintree, and the Northern at Wetherby (but the latter course is closed for racing during the summer). Arab racing doesn't happen north of Warwick (I think - none in N/W anyway). |
Marilyn
     
www.sweetphotography.com ** Now available online Our 2016 Galleries ** |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Moosie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 7:35:20 PM
|
I have been racing arabs (on a very small scale ie 1! or at the most 2) for 25 years and remember the split - bad feelings were rife and the attitude of the AHS seemed rather "dubious" to say the least! I only belonged to the AHS in order to race and havent joined since. I believe the AHS lost many other members (and their subs) for the very same reason.
Its true that the "big trainers" train the majority of runners but equally true that its perfectly possible to do it yourself (successfully) without access to purpose built facilities. Prob no more expensive than any other specialist area and at least you have the chance of winning back some of your expenses |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2010 : 11:36:12 PM
|
I know another long-time supporter of racing whose feelings strongly echo Moosie's. Perhaps it is these disaffected folk whose opinions ought to be sought on what went wrong with the AHS re racing? It is no use trying to bring racing back into an AHS fold unless you can win over the racing folks' hearts and minds, no matter how much the AHS membership might wish it!
Keren |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
littlearabians
Gold Member
1323 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 12:40:04 AM
|
I don't know anything about this split you're on about, as i only just moved to England.
I just wanted to say that i intend to race my young stallion... hopefully next year... both my horses has got excellent racing pedigrees.
As i used to ride races myself (too heavy for flat racing now) i am going to train him myself, and take him to my old TB trainer, for a bit of fast work with other horses/ stall training.
I have trained my own TB in Denmark, and he won quite a bit of money for me... I have also been riding several top racing Arabs... there's no way I'm going to pay hundreds of £ a week for something i can easily do myself (and that i LOVE doing).
|
www.littlearabians.com
Classic Polish Arabians
Worcester based
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Sundance
Racing Moderator
England
932 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 12:34:09 PM
|
Hi All,
Thank you for raising this Alistair and I think it is an interesting discussion point although I did wince slightly at your comment "Arab racing has gone off the radar a bit". I have been writing diligently on this sport since 2002 and I write about Arab racing in all the main UK Arab Mags and International Mags too, there is a section on this site about Arab racing and ARO has all race reports on thier site. But I guess you are correct in that since the split with AHS the sport has lost alot of support and people have drifted to other pursuits, mainly endurance. The main loss is the Horse and Hound coverage but the editor is admament that she will not publish Arab results or reports in this magazine, and this has lost the sport significant publicity. I don't think the AHS could sustain Arab racing much longer, and even then the entries were decreasing in race meetings, ARO has effectively enabled us to continue racing for which we should all bred grateful for.
I used to compete as an owner/trainer/jockey and loved it, it is such a good fun sport, there are more opportunities for everyone at every level and that makes it a rare sport. Even the little person can compete with the big yards and win, when I won as a o/t/j I beat the Harringtons, Duffield and Sarah Kelleway. The sport has changed and is more competitive and professional and yes expensive, but the prize money is significantly better. The days of amateur's pulling horses out the field and hacking them round a race track are gone, and surely this is a good thing from a welfare point of view?
It is sad that the owner/trainers and jockeys are a dying breed as such, and that the sport is becoming more professionally focused, but this is to give value and credibility to our races on the International stage and for the long term benefit and progress of the sport. The smaller yards are dwindling so I think for the sport to survive it has to provide opportunities for the bigger yards, it is the only way to survive. When ARO started in 2000-01 the entries were 4-5 in each race, in 2008 we had healthy numbers of nearly 12-14 in the handicaps and 10 or so in maidens so I think the sport is still going in the right direction. There are still many opportunities for all levels and many owner/trainers compete successfully in low - mid level handicaps. It's a myth that Arabs have to be French bred to be successful, there have been many decent winners and performers this year that aren't French bred - Whisper, Angel Picamer, El Buba, Lady Marisha, Star Valentina, Sakeena Sky Zayin, Egypt, Al Harith, Pinkie Tuscadero, Aberfeldy, El Hamsa, Nokomys etc
I don't train anymore and both my fillies will be in training with a friend this year, but this is more to do with lack of time to do the job properly, but it is possible and if I didn't work such long hours and have a 2 hr commute I would return to training. That said I ride out my horses at the trainers yard at weekends.
As for costs it is expensive, but there are some trainers who you can negotiate for on fees and I know of one who trains for £75 - 100 per week, although most charge between £120 - 140 a week, but we are in a recession and you can always state your budget and see what a trainer says.
I'll stop rambling now, but there are opportunities for everyone racing from the low level handicaps to Group races and you DON'T need French bred Arabs to race, many other lines doing exceptionally well on the track including Russian, Polish, Egyptian, Spanish and Crabbet. My other concern is that there are less than a handful of people breeding for Arab racing in UK, so I think the community will have to look to other lines to continue racing, as Ascot have probably (as far as I know) had its last Arab racing sale racing people will have to look locally or look to spend upwards of 10k euros in France for a race prospect.
Anyway I remain optimistic for the future of Arab racing.
I love watching my homebreds race and get a real sense of satisfaction out of seeing them mature and come of age on the track. Give it a go you'll love it!!!!
Paul |
Paul
www.zayinarabianstud.co.uk |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 12:42:51 PM
|
Paul, you say the days of 'owners pulling a horse in from a field and racing it are over and good thing from a welfare point of view' - I don't think people like Kim Bradley were pulling horses like Carabineer in like that; he was properly trained and though she did everything herself it was done properly - as is nearly everything for an endurance horse doing 100 miles a day!!!
I think it would be nice for Arab owners to be able to prepare their horses for racing either in amateur-trained races or against the 'rest', in the same way amateur riders have huge pleasure in doing ridden classes against the 'professionals' and many win! |
Roseanne |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Sundance
Racing Moderator
England
932 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 12:50:32 PM
|
Roseanne,
This is exactly why I don't post on this site anymore because people misinterpret postings. I wasn't referring to everyone who raced in the old days as pulling their horses out of the field and racing them, Kim did exceptionally well with Carabineer he was a super star and well trained and prepared for racing. However, in the old days there were "some" people who didn't train their horses properly, i.e. fat unfit horses that weren't properly prepared for racing and it is cruel to ask an unfit horse to gallop for a mile and therefore a welfare issue.
Paul |
Paul
www.zayinarabianstud.co.uk |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 1:15:25 PM
|
| Paul, why is it that H&H won't publish Arab Racing reports etc? They cover (badly IMO) other arab disciplines. I wonder what their problem is with racing? TB racing gets tremendous coverage. I don't understand the logic here. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 4:38:51 PM
|
Good post Paul.
From what you say it appears that training is about the same as ridden training-and those classes are packed .
What if...
We were all to wipe the slate and try to engender a spirit of co-operation where people who are not knowlegeable in racing could be mentored and encouraged to have a go?
I see only benefits and a growing sales platform. |
blue moon |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Moosie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 5:40:42 PM
|
whoops just switched computer on(before going to feed my racehorse/RC horse/endurance horse/happy hacker) and saw that this topic has grown a bit. Anyone can "have a go",anyone can register as a trainer (as far as I know!) - as for advice and mentoring - well advice is Im sure, freely and happily given by many trainers (list on ARO website) and most of it isnt rocket science - just needs a bit of application and adjustment from how you would, for example, fitten an eventer. Horses are better prepared nowadays - thank goodness - and no, the majority werent just pulled in from the field in the past - but there was always the odd one .But it does take dedication and committment (as it does to compete properly in any performance discipline). I do believe though that there is a much bigger divide nowadays between many showing bred horses and those likely to be able to give a good account of themselves on the track (remaining sound, happy and sane in the process).
As regardsd the split - I suspect whats done is done and there was a significant lack of integriity on both sides. The AHS now appears to be very strongly leaning towards the showing world and possibly "never the twain can meet"????despite the efforts of a few individuals |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
firstlady
Gold Member
Wales
767 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2010 : 7:49:18 PM
|
Lol moosie me to I have also just fed my little race/endurance/show/dressage/showjumping/handy arab/happy hacker/lead rein(goes to show how long he's been with me as his LR partner is now 19 !!!)yard monitor !!! 98% crabbet horse who also just happens to be a veteran but he just won't believe it and Say's his passport is a misprint - unfortunately he didn't win last year but he and I really did enjoy ourselves and hope to be out again this year ...so if anyone is thinking about racing their arab if we can do it anyone can .... just get your horse fit fit fit and have fun there's loads of people that will give you advice and encouragement
Paul it is a shame that there aren't too many O/T/J's left as it was fun but by my own admission I wasn't the best of jockey's  but very fortunate to have a very willing bay accomplice
And must say Phillip Rondel is a bit of a legend
I think it is a great way for young jocks to gain valuable experience and we have seen one or two very very good one's in the last few years
Was it the wrong decision ??
IMHO I think it was the right decision to split,not handled the best at the time but Arab racing has definitely moved forward
Can the AHS be involved ?
Yes by also moving forward and being supportive to the owners who choose to 'Use' their arabs
How ?
By concentrating on promoting the performance lines and encourage the breeding of such maybe arrange a promotional stand at the race meetings in their area
possibly ROR classes for arabians
maybe a parade of past,present and future ? racehorses at the National show and maybe group/county shows ?
The arabian needs to be promoted as the excellent riding horse that they are and not as the spindly,skitty barbie doll animals that they are unfortunately being perceived as by the general unenlightened public,
as unfortunately the 'shop window' ie 'modern' in hand showing displays and also appears to be the one favoured by the AHS
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 09:59:45 AM
|
Steady on old girl ,not all in -hand horses are as you say .
most of the ridden champs theses days come up thru the in-hand rings .
My point was that the separation has not led to a high profile for Arab s in general .
Is there more that can be done on tha marketing side here ?
|
blue moon |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
|
|
nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 11:30:37 AM
|
I have always wanted to race some of my arabians, it was one of the reasons why i wanted an arab, they are so versatile, by the time i saved up enough money to buy my first arab it had all changed.
I do feel that it has become as roseanne say's a bit more of elite sport and more difficult for us novice race people to have fun training and riding their own horse.
I know the aro did hold a meeting for novice people to "have a go", but it worked out too expensive and too far away for me.
My farrier is John Croft, and we've had many coversations about racing, he too commented on people not getting their horses fit enough
I also think that it is a great shame that H&H don't do the racing reports anymore.
I also think it is absolutly tragic what went on between the ahs and the aro, and a great failing of the ahs to not support racing arabian horses more. Maybe they can build bridges, and encourage more of their members to give it a go and hold a race meeting on the same day and place as aro.
I have to be honest that i just feel that if you want to do anything with your arabs you need a prof handler, or a prof rider, or a prof race trainer and jockey.
Gone are the days where the amatuer can go and have fun racing and go showing another day with the same horse, and hopefully do well?
All across the board, it has become far too professional, far too serious, and all that happens is the arab horse suffers in some way or another. Unless of course you have bucket load of money that you can afford to waste.
jmo.
|
pagey |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
|
|
firstlady
Gold Member
Wales
767 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 7:30:49 PM
|
Alistair I am saying that is unfortunately the way that the arabian is being perceived - and yes some do go on to make ridden horses but many more do not
I still believe it is down to the 'modern' way of in hand showing that has a large amount of how the arabian is perceived ......thankfully there are shows like the welsh crabbet show and I think wessex have introduced a class where traditional is the way forward
Nikki give my regards to J.C when you next see him and tell him that 'Jaz' & Debbie say hello
I have to disagree about needing a prof trainer
as I am not a professional I have a day job and have trained (and ridden ) my own horses and for another owner and fortunately had some success ,
an excellent jockey is essential
a prof handler for showing that's a whole thread on its own !!!
Babs R not sure where Phillip Rondel is from but he is a mature gentleman who is one of the few O/J/T left and always gets a huge cheers when he's led into the winners enclosure - which he does often and long may his success continue
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Clutha
Bronze Member
155 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 7:56:56 PM
|
| No idea about the split but I remember watching Dahess in his third triumph at Newbury. The most gorgeous animal, very definately looked every inch an arab stallion, showed amazing acceleration. Such a priviladge to watch a race like that (Angel Picamer also won that day) |
Pip |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 9:09:26 PM
|
I'd certainly agree with firstlady in that the presentational in-hand Arab is very different in looks and type from the kind of Arab you see advertised as a racing prospect.
And I think she's right that one downside at the moment is that there is a belief in the 'outer' horsey world that Arabs are all about the in-hand, very refined featured, not particularly strong-looking specimens that are promoted with their greased-up, whiskerless faces, with their manes cropped half way to their withers.
We all know within the Arab world that this is not the whole story, but outsiders to the breed are increasingly getting that image.
It is a shame that endurance and Arab racing don't get a bit more coverage in mainstream horse mags such as Horse and Hound, as it leaves (mainly) the in-hand showing reports and it doesn't help the spread of the versatile, performance breed that we all want to promote. |
Roseanne |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Moosie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2010 : 9:21:40 PM
|
I was going to bow out of this now - dont often post on here anyway BUT have to support First Lady as there do seem to be misconceptions here. You CAN still train your own horse successfully (Im certainly not rich n[:I and dont expect First Lady is either!])You have a very good chance of winning back some of your expenses tooBut you do need a suitable horse.(chances of this are vastly improved if the horse is race bred) At the end of the day, with the handicap system a horse doesnt usually have to race out of its class and the horse doesnt have a hang up about whether its trainer is professional or not!
I too am unclear about why H & H wont publish arab racing results?
I have grave doubts about the reality of the AHS doing much to publicise arab racing as I dont feel that its what they are "about". (especially as their membership is undoubtedly booming and their profile constantly rising )
Some of us still race as an enjoyable hobby - along with the other usual performance disciplines - yes in a way its a shame its so professional but then so is dressage etc above a certain level! |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
Racing --- Was it the wrong decision?
