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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2009 : 3:30:50 PM
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Any information on this colt born in 1923. Looking for any registered stock.
Anyone in Holland can they please check for him in the NPS or offsprings in the Part Bred Arab Register around that time.
Thanks You
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 21 Dec 2009 12:12:58 PM
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 12:06:42 PM
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A bit more on B.Timmermans.
He was stationed in Holland,Grootestraat,Waalwyk and also had links with the Constantine Remount Stud in Algeria, North Africa. So I guess much of his purchases and breeding possible went to there or visa versa.
The Timmermans seeme to have used the Pure bred Arab stallion bred here in Devon and exported to Holland as a yearling...HOUBARAN, 1923.(AHSB Vol. III,1926. p.41 & GBS) a Bay horse born in 1923 in GB, bred by T C Armitage, Dene Court,Taunton, and sired by Aldebaron ( a chestnut) also born here in GB, being by (Dwarka)
dam Arusa, 1924. (AHSB Vol. III, p.85. sire Rustem (Vol I p.68)(Astraled/Ridaa).breeder Crabbet. Owner T C Armitage, Dene Court,Taunton,England.
an Abeyan Sherrak.
In 1924, Houbaran was exported to H T Hoyer,Singel,Dordrecht,Holland.
So it looks like Houbaran was stationed in Holland or in the Remount Stud in Acre,Constantine,Nth Africa..when he was used by Mr Timmermans on his mares...
Can anyone confirm the life of HOURBARAN after he arrived in Holland in 1923..Please. was he there all his life and what progeny are listed/recorded by him....and did he stay in Holland or was he exported...?????.
Ring any Bells Pelle ?????????.
Mr Timmermans has several horses recorded in the Part Bred Arab Stud Book Vol.IV. GB.
Including ARAB.(Refered to as the Black Barb Stallion)
ARAB - 1932, Bright Bay. PBAR.Vol.IV. Overseas.P.84.
Sire.HOUBARAN
Dam. ARBA (Dutch Stud Book), by CUSTOS
out of JETZKE
Grand Dam, a Hackney Mare
same breeder owner, B Timmermans.
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SAOUD 1933, a Grey Colt, by Houbaran out of Saidah (French SB) a Barb mare bred at Constanine Remount |Station.
SAAD 1931,Grey Colt, bred the same way as the horse above.
OULAD HOUBARA 1933, Chestnut Colt, By Houbaran,
out of Zohra (French SB,( by El Ehmir, out of a mare of Moh'd Ben Sliman Buchara of the Ulet Bedouins (Nth.Africa).
IBN HOUBARAN 1931, Bay Colt, bred by Houbaran,out of Zohra.
and the following fillies also recorded in PBAR IV.
ARBANA (s.HOUBARAN/out of JUTZKE (Dutch Stud Book)by a Black BARB stallion imported from North Africa.Breeder & Owner B.Timmermans.Holland.
BINT HOUBARAN (out of Zohra)
CHEGGUERA (out of Berjutzka, by the Black Barb stallion ARAB,(Jutzke/Hackney mare).
EL AROUSSA( Dutch SB)
GHORA (out of an Irish Draught mare - De Ier).
All the above mares were by Houbaran.
Hope that puts a bit more meat on the bones and if you need the colours of the above mares just ask. I will add them all to allbreeds in time.
No Laughter yet.
Cheers Sue
Pelle, I'm off line at the moment (with a problem on the PC) I can receive emails but can not send them.
for your info, I now have NPS-
XXI (1931-1933)
XVIII (1922 -1924)
XX (1928 - 1930)
XIX (1925 -1927)
If that caught your attention email me and I'll PM you via AL.
I hope you got my post and I have not recieved yours yet??
Keep me posted...all very interesting.
PS. I also have borrowed AHS, Vol. I, 2, 3 & 4. so got all the early horses.
and the book Arabian Exodus...which list all the early imports and where they came from.
Have a Good Christmas Everyone..Its getting close now...
Bia, I think I need your expert help here to confirm what horses are recorded in Holland and any other place(Palestine Remount(proper name..The Government Stud Farm, ACRE, PALASTINE. and was run by a British Officer 1922 - 1927?), by the stallion HOUBARON (Aldebaron 1919/Arusa 1915 and both his sire & dam look to have been born in GB).
Help Please.
Cheers Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 23 Dec 2009 11:19:01 AM |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2009 : 10:42:21 PM
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Hi Sue,
My Anglo mare out of my first Arab mare goes back to Arbana, Houbaran and Arab, can you tell me more about them?? You mention Jutzke twice, once as a Dutch SB, no idea what that means, and once as a hackney mare. By the way they are on All breed, through my mares. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/arbana
The NRPS say they have nothing in their archives about Laughter, sorry.
I can put a search on a Dutch site??
Regards, Monique |
M. Lankhaar |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2009 : 1:11:25 PM
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Hi Lila, The albreeds is NOT correct for ARBANA, this is how she was bred, as listed in the PBAR IV,p.91. Hope this helps.
ARBANA - 1923 (chestnut) Mare
sire.HOUBARAN/out of JUTZKE (Dutch Stud Book)by a Black BARB stallion imported from North Africa.
Breeder & Owner B.Timmermans.Holland.
I can also tell you that the mare CHEGGUERA - 1933 Chestnut + star & streak.
also sired by HOUBARAN,
out of BERJUTZKA, who was by the Black BARB stallion ARAB (thats his name)
out of JUTZKE, by CUSTOS,
out of a Hackney Mare.
breeder & Owner B Timmermans.
Hope that hels, will look at the all breesds and see if I can add anything else to help (later).
It does look as if by the year 1933, when Chegguera was added, that they'd confirmed that the Black Barb Stallion was named ARAB.
It also looks as if ARBA (Dutch Stud Book) was also by CUSTOS.
unless the part bred stud book has a miss print and swopped them around..
All for now.
PS. Good to see a pic of HOUBARON, any idea of his size???.
Cheers Sue.
---------------
I'm back.
I've found in the Part Bred Arab Stallions & Colts, Registered in Overseas Countries. PBAR page 84. Vol.IV.(1948).
ARAB - 1932, Bright Bay
Sire.HOUBARAN
Dam. ARBA (Dutch Stud Book), by CUSTOS
out of JETZKE
Grand Dam, a Hackney Mare
same breeder owner, B Timmermans.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=ARAB4&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=
another bit of meat on the bones...and GD means Grand Dam. OK.
Where is Pelle???????
Sue
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Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 22 Dec 2009 2:26:13 PM |
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Melynda
Silver Member
United Kingdom
277 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2009 : 8:37:35 PM
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"ARBANA, this is how she was bred, as listed in the PBAR IV,p.91. Hope this helps.
ARBANA - 1923 (chestnut) Mare
sire.HOUBARAN/out of JUTZKE (Dutch Stud Book)by a Black BARB stallion imported from North Africa.
Breeder & Owner B.Timmermans.Holland."
Jutzke I was born 1922 according to Dutch sorces. I've put her off-spring on here;
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10584495
There is a picture of Houbaran here;
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=houbaran
P.S.
Pelle might be snowed in as there is even more snow in Sweden than here in England.
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Edited by - Melynda on 23 Dec 2009 8:40:46 PM |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2009 : 12:25:00 PM
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Thank You Melynda, it all helps.
I'm also after the progeny of CUSTOS the horse that sired one or two (or more) of Mr Timmermans stock, if anyone has this info.
Also, I'm after any /all ALDEBARAN stock that was bred here in GB., and any other stock bred any where else in the world.
 ALDEBARAN 1919.
Alsom Interested to know what Part Bred progeny HOUBAREN bred in Holland, after 1924...???
 HOUBARAN 1923.
The Black Barb Stallion,I believe is ARAB.(as above).
Has anyone got the earlier (before 1922) NPS stud books, as I'm after any entries for Overseas stock.
Especially relating to The Government Stud, ACRE, Palestine around the 1920's...
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE,
Thanks you again for all youir continued help.
Sue |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 25 Dec 2009 5:58:56 PM |
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Pelle
Bronze Member
Sweden
141 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2009 : 6:06:53 PM
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Hello sue,
no I'am not snowed in, Im with my mother who is meeting her cousin, in Poona or as it is now called Pure in India, we have about 25 celsisus, and enjoy the sun ! Will try to get all info about all the old polopony stallions that was imported by greatgranny, and will be back in 3 days inn sweden. Your photocopies has arrived while I was away. Take care and enjoy christmas/Pelle |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2009 : 12:33:34 AM
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Aldebaran progeny Purebred (UK):
Houbaran Bay 1923 out of Arusa exported to Netherlands 1924
Myra Chestnut M 1924 out of Rangha
Algol Chestnut S 1928 out of Rangha
Barkis Chestnut S 1929 out of Rangha
Sahban Grey S 1930 out of Seriya |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2009 : 5:30:36 PM
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Hi Pelle, Enjoy your break with the family and the Sunshine.
I have found out that in the 1920ies Lord Cameron (British) was at the Government Stud Farm in Acre, Palestine ( called the Remount Station) and set up by the British Army I think) in the 1920's and that some of there horses were sourced from the same places as the Crabbet horses that came to GB. Lord Cameron was a personal friend of Lady Wentworth. There are some papers and photos of stock in the Oxford Archives,and the British Officer in charge then, has all his papers archived there too.
So its quite possible that Zoolkie was bred there and that he may have the same Arabian blood as the others that made there way to GB and Deven & Dorset. So keep looking.. There are few Greys, so it might not be too difficult to find him and his proper name. Ask the family if they can remember what name he was raced under and what colour was the BARB stallion, because finding the Black Barb named ARAB, was a real perk..
Aldebaron went back to the Jellibie (your Jollibits??), so he might be the one?? or the same family. CROSBIE needs looking into also.
The British enthusiasts have recorded where and when most of these horses came from and in some cases who they were purchased and aquired from, so lots can be dismissed..leaving just a few to work on.
I would like to try to find out what stallions were in use at The Palestine remount station in the 1900's. so ask your family for any clue's.
There is still a stud farm in Acre, called SABRE ARABIANS, it was set up on the same site as the Palestine Remount Station, they write of one of the horse officers that helped set up Sabre originally.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/houbaran
In the Part Bred Arab Stud Book, there are still loads of Arab Stallions recorded as just Imports...and no real info about them..
Will keep looking..
Hope your family can put more meat on the bones and we need to go further back to 1900's..
Have a Good Holiday, the snow in the Midlands where I am, is not too bad, We have been to the local Hunt today, it was very Sunny too and Port to drink.
Happy New Year.
PS. I'm not on line at the mo (breakdown on the PC) so leave me a PM message via AL.
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Sir Edward & Lady Durand alos had, Flashlight,King of the Wavelets, Searchlight of Bridstow,by Golden Glebe.
Cheers Sue---- Keep Looking..
adding another by Houbaran.http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&horse=NUSKA3&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l= |
Sue
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Edited by - Rozy Rider on 26 Dec 2009 6:22:33 PM |
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Peterina
New Member
Belgium
16 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2010 : 5:22:03 PM
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I do not have it but maybe this book has some relevant info re the Desert Borns:
UPTON, PETER. The Arab Horse. A Complete Record of the Arab Horses Imported into Britain from the Desert of Arabia from the 1830s.
Manchester, Barzan, 2006. Oblong large 8vo. 24x31 cm, pp. 336. Hardcover with dust jacket. Illustrated with many photographs, illustrations and colour plates. Index. Second, revised edition. A complete record of the Arab Horses imported into Britain from the desert of Arabia from the 1830s. Synopsis: The first Arab stallion brought into Britain from the Desert of Arabia was Padischah, imported in the 1830s, and whose pure-bred line still exists. This book provides a complete record of all the desert-bred horses imported into Britain after Padischah, from whom all present day pure-bred Arab horses descend. In his introductory chapter, Peter Upton provides a narrative history of the desert journeys of those early British enthusiasts who went in search of horses suitable for shipping back to Britain, most notably Major Roger Upton, Wilfrid Scawen and Lady Anne Blunt (founders of the famous Crabbet Stud in 1878), and the Honourable Miss Dillon. Thereafter, and often in the words of the original importers, the author gives detailed descriptions of the eighty-six horses who have lines existing to this day. There follow detailed tables of descent of mares and stallions, and sections on Bedouin horse breeders, the origins of the Arab horse, and the development of strains. Lavishly illustrated with 60 full-page colour portraits of horses by the author, and colour reproductions of famous paintings of Arab horses by Wootton, Herring, Stubbs, Landseer and others, and with 160 black-and-white photographs, this revised and expanded edition of "The Arab Horse" will delight and inform all those with an interest in this most beautiful breed. Fine copy in a fine dust jacket. 2300 gram; pakket.
http://www.antiqbook.nl/boox/zaa/15503.shtml
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Palomino's are dancing sunbeams. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 12:22:51 PM
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Hi Peterine, It a book on my list of wants, but I'm not 100% sure if all the horses (Arab Imports) made there way into Peter Uptons book (The Arab Horse). It would be nice to think they did, but I think we have already identified some that did not appear in the Crabbet imports.
Thanks for the interest and help.
Cheers Sue
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Sue
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Laughter 1923 Colt . info wanted/Timmermans.
