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khira
Bronze Member
 United Kingdom
182 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 12:04:38 AM
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Hi everyone - has anyone any advice pls?
I recently bought a 7 yr old gelding from a dealer in the Cheshire - girl who showjumps and sells horses to pay for it - i was totally honest that I was a nervous rider - wanted something well schooled that with tution (for my own riding) I could do a bit of local dressage on, as well as fun rides, bit of cross country and general hacking - must be good in traffic as i can be nervous in traffic and on a busy road. Suitable for a novice too as my fella is learning to ride.
Anyway horse turned out to be not good in traffic and scared of a lot of stuff - with a strong confident rider he prob would have been ok but I back off so he just took the Michael out of me.
I asked for my money back as had been totally honest I was nervous etc and he had also bolted with me after spooking at a tent out hacking - managed to get him to come back in end but he was not suitable for what i had asked for.
Anyway she agreed swap him but would not give me my money back.
Found a new horse that she was adamant he was perfect even tho had only had him in 2 weeks.
Tried him in school but when I asked to try him out in open field etc she wouldn't saying too much time etc. She took him in a field on the farm and he seemed quiet enough. Was well schooled and I jumped him so said ok.
Had him vetted - another 200 quid as had paid for first horse to be vetted, teeth rasped AND vaccinations started.
Got him home. First time I hacked him out he stopped out after about 15 mins - refusing to go either forwards or towards home. Leg, whip, other horse and rider who was out with me leaving him did nothing. Wouldn't move other than backing up then stopping again. Had get off and lead him in the end all way home as i had got back on again but he just did it again 5 mins later.
I put this down to another new home and gave him a couple extra days settle in.
Rode him in school - spooked at something - running backwards - managed get him look at it then he was fantastic the rest of the schooling session.
Took him out tonight. Was having a great time until we had stop to let a car past - he is not scared of cars but did NOT want to stand still. Started shaking his head up and down then backing all over the place. Firm leg on and sharp tap with the whip and he moved forward. Still messing around all over place when asking him to stand so car let me walk past. Then had to stand again to let some big dogs past. Again would not stand still. Starts backing up, ignoring my leg, and whip just makes him start to run backwards. Dogs by this time long gone but he wont go forward - if i ask him with my leg he backs up, tried turning him - still wont stop and whip makes him worse. Was on edge of bank with decent sized drop and he doesn't have a clue what behind him so had jump off him quick before he fell down the thing!
I stood with him for 5 mins as by this time I was shaking and near tears - after calmed down led him down the path. I then got on him and he was good as gold. I didn;t ask him to stand again but just walked and a bit of trot home.
He isn't strong and is well schooled. Normally goes nicely off leg and stops when asked. But the backing up is totally uncalled for and dangerous in my opinion as there is loads of big drops and wire etc on the sides out hacking and this doesn;t stop him. He has no manners if being asked to stand (in school will stand fine - its out hacking the problem occurs) but i'm a nervous rider and dont know how to handle it.
Has anyone any advice. I've tried calling the dealer and text her asking her advice but she isn;t calling me back or texting a reply.
Should i stick with it and do you think this is a problem that can be solved or what should I do??.
I thought buying a new horse was supposed to be exciting but this is turning out to be a nightmare.
Any advice really appreciated and sorry for the essay of a post!
Thanks
Nicola
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Edited by - khira on 06 Jun 2009 10:04:34 AM
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Gerri
Platinum Member
England
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 07:31:58 AM
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Hi Nicola, I am so sorry for you, okay sounds like he is picking up on your nervousness and he is nervous too, sounds like he is very green............ when he starts backing up turn him in a really tight circle if you can even if it means his head on your inside leg, if you get my drift and keep doing it till he is prepared to walk forward, when he does even if its only two strides stop him and pat him and tell him he is a good boy and when ever he tries to back up turn him in a circle, now this does not cure straight away it will take time, but he will soon learn that you are not getting off or giving in and if he does not walk on he will be circled and he will not want to keep on circling, also put him on a lunge and get him to walk on and then trot to voice and plenty of praise, as this is basically training again, if you don't want to put all this time in insist that the dealer come and see for themselves as they ought to do something about it, but it really sounds like he needs a confident rider as not confident himself, big hugs to you I can understand your disappointment |
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deebee
Silver Member
262 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 08:15:06 AM
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Hi Kira; unfortunately this just underlines my feelings about dealers 
I think the turning idea could be helpful, but I also think your horse is definitely uncomfortable; he's showing you he's not secure in the situation or in you as a leader - and he's not confident himself. You say you gave him 'a few more days' to settle in. Just think about how he is feeling: he's come from everything he knows - friends, fields, routine (where he knew where his food and water was coming from), to some other place he was just getting used to, to another place where this new person makes him do all this new stuff, he doesn't know anyone, and he's probably not sure exactly what's happening yet about his food.
He's expected to just accept all this, and accept you as his new leader in the herd of two when you are riding him.
I see this all the time! I always say to give a new horse at least two weeks of just settling in and getting used to the new routine and to you. If the new owners can do this they usually find no problems. If they do then find the horse doesn't trust them yet, they need to go back a pace and gain that trust, not try to force the horse to accept them. If you can take it slow with him, and let him get used to you as a friend and leader - not bossy - he will start to look to you for the decisions, not try to take over because he feels he has to. You can work on the ground and ensure he's listening to you properly, showing him all sorts of things to teach him you do know what you're on about. Wait until he's looking forward to being with you, then take him out with a friend, if you can, to show him around his new area.
This should pay dividends in the long run!
Sorry if this has gone on a bit, I feel it's not something I could put in short terms; also sorry if I've spouted off; I also wanted to make it something others might be able to learn from, as I really do see it an awful lot (I work with re-training horses).  |
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sarahjo
Silver Member
England
262 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 09:01:49 AM
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Hi Nicola
Really feel for you! It's not easy when they go backwards - the more you kick the faster they go
It sounds like a confidence thing. Don't ask too much too soon, ie ride out with someone else. Have you tried taking him out for a walk inhand?
One thing I would watch is the tension you are passing down your reins, it's very easy just to tense up and hold tighter and tighter and this won't help.
The patience thing when standing still should get better.
All the best.
Sarah
x
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saraholdershaw@hotmail.com
www.arabianhalternatives.com
Nottingham |
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Theo
Silver Member
England
368 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 09:22:38 AM
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Hi Nicola,
I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience, but apart from the backing-up / sticky business, the horse does sound suitable for you?
Unfortunately in the realms of day to day schooling, alot of emphasis is put on owning the horses' forwards, left and right movements and often the reverse gear is neglected. (Always thinking about going forwards) So, the horse uses this as a weapon against you as he clearly sees that you have no control and gets nervous over it...
Now, the secret is to take control of that reverse gear; firstly, teach him to reinback in-hand, perhaps using as pressure halter and voice... then when he performs this safely and proficiently, then start asking for reinbacks under saddle. Remamber to give him lots and lots of praise  when he does the right thing... Do this in a 'school' environment before you venture onto the roads etc... now if he gets sticky on the lanes again, just simple turn round, reinback in the direction you want to travel in, go past the 'scary object' ... and soon he'll find that it's far easier to walk forward... simples! |
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jillandlomond
Platinum Member
Scotland
3586 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 09:42:11 AM
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Ditto to Theo's reply! This method definately works |
    
Borders, Scotland |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 11:12:33 AM
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| Ditto Theo too - I've had to walk backwards just to go in the direction I wanted to go. They soon realise it's too awkward so they stop going backwards and think about the next way to have some fun and mischief! |
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 11:38:10 AM
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Which dealer? Probably best to PM me. There are good, honest dealers about but sadly also many who aren't.
This horse doesn't sound like he's got too many problems BUT you're already a nervous rider and it's all too easy to completely lose any confidence that you have left. You're totally right - getting a new horse should be exciting and fun. You ending up shaking and in tears is not good and not what your hobby should be about. Backing up as an evasion is dangerous and is not something this horse has just learned - he'll have been using it for a while and as such it will take a while to sort out. You asked for a horse suitable for a nervous rider and one that a novice could learn on. You certainly haven't been sold one suitable for the job you want and therefore I would keep on at the dealer until she responds - if she refuses to phone back then pay her a visit (don't tell her you're coming as she'll probably not be there or another good ploy - get someone else to ring up and pretend they want to buy a horse. Get them to arrange a time to visit then go yourself - that way you're guaranteed the dealer will be there to talk to you). Demand a full refund. She's a dealer so she has to abide by the Sale of Goods Act, which means the thing sold has to be suitable for the purpose it's sold for. If she refuses tell her you'll go straight to trading standards and if necessary Small Claims court. If you stick to your guns then she should take the horse back and refund your money. If you're not confident to do this yourself take someone with you who is, preferably someone who is horsey.
If you don't want to go down this route or can't for whatever reason, then I'd recommend getting some expert help to get him moving forwards and get your own confidence up. Get a good local instructor who will ride him for you, then teach you to ride him and how to deal with any problems he throws at you. |
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khira
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
182 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 1:52:13 PM
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Hi
Thanks for all your advice. I have tried turning him but he just puts his head round to his neck if that makes sense and carries on almost in same direction. When he stops he refuses to go forwards OR backwards - ignores my leg and if i flick the whip to try and get him to listen to my leg he starts backing up again. The only thing i could do last night without ending up in the ditch as we were right on the edge of it - was get off for 5 mins, lead him, then when he was all quiet again get back on. Then he was as good as gold although I didn't have the nerve to ask him to stand again.
I agree yes I probably do tense up although i am a pain in the bottom for having my reins like washing lines so i dont think it resulted in me pulling on his mouth - if anything i prob need more of a contact. I ride more western style but in english tack lol.
Your right though I know I DO need lessons big time and this is a big drain on my confidence. I could try the pressure halter backing up technique Theo suggested but again I will defo need professional help.
I dont think for a minute i was purposefully sold a horse not suitable and i'm sure he was as good as gold whilst she had him but how does someone know what a horse is really like - to be confident enough to sell to a novice rider - after only having him 2 weeks themself.
After trying to ring her with no avail I text her saying this is ridiculous, i am seeing my solicitor and want my full money back plus the two vettings I paid for. I then got a reply back saying she will come down, take him out and sort him out herself?
What do you think of this? To me this is not something he has just learnt overnight, maybe he has not done a great deal of hacking in the past, i dont know but i cant see one time her taking him out "as a confident strong" rider is gonna remove the problem.
Would you just agree for her to take him then take it from there? I know i need lessons regardless of any problems that i am encountering now but i just feel really disheartened. it is not always possible to hack out with others and i'm spending all this money yet getting very little back. I recently sold my mare because she was a little too green for me in a hacking situation however had a fantastic future ahead of her with a more confident rider and i feel i am right back where I started
loosefur i will PM you.
Thanks again.
Nic
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Nicola |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 2:04:00 PM
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Hi Nicola,
sorry to hear your having problems! All advice given off everyone already sounds spot on.
As far as the dealer, if i was you i would let her come and let her ride out like you do and see if he does it with her and if she can stop him doing it at least she knows whats happening and might be able to put it rite with you.
I really hope it works out for you x |
     
Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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deebee
Silver Member
262 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 2:06:02 PM
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| Where abouts are you? You're probably within your rights to fight her but you may or may not get anywhere - although it sounds like what she needs! If you would like some help I may know of people in your area x |
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khira
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
182 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 2:08:45 PM
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Hi Deebee
I'm in Westhoughton, Bolton.
Yes I'm gonna let her come down then so she can see for herself and will take it from there. i really dont think its somat to cure overnight so i'l see what she says.
Thanks again everyone for your advice.
Nicola |
Nicola |
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 2:14:43 PM
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I'd definitely practice rein back and transitions at home - loads of them and form your seat only. When you ask himto halt and he does, RELAX - be a ragdoll passenger. If he moves correct him and the instant he is still soften again. THen out hacking ask for halt form your seat and do this exercise when you want to. It osunds like he's not a foward thinker so build his confidence with poles, funnels etc - it'll boost yours too to make him more assertive. When you are getting somewhere, ask lots of people to ride him for 10mins so he unwinds to new situations.
And definitely teach him a rein back, so if you get into the pacing backwards situation again you shoudl give the rein back aids until you feel him engage, then ask for halt, soften and praise. It's just napping after all, so zigzagging etc will help. I also find that taking horses that do this behavior to have a good look at the gremlin just makes it worse, whereas doing an exercise they know (and they feel good at) past the gremlin soon has them foucsing better
And to add: sometimes it can be sorted overnight - I watches a horse I knew totally take the mickey with a local PRO Event Rider, instructor etc etc.... 3 days running. Then 1 of my girls got on, slobbed out all the way ona ride until he went to nap - in an instant she caught him at the critical moment, pushed the right buttons and released all the moment he was through it - horse NEVER napped again! |
    
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
Edited by - Mrs Vlacq on 05 Jun 2009 2:19:16 PM |
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radfan
Bronze Member
96 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 3:59:58 PM
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| Hi, feel for you, tricky situation as to what to do with him. If you can work through this together and come out the other side with lessons from a good instructor then you will feel as though you have conquered the world and the two of you will really bond. I think all is good advice on here, As simple as it sounds i also think that maybe you need to take a few steps back and just enjoy each other for a while & form that connection. This can take the form of even something as straightforward as walking out in hands, bathing, grooming. Just fun things that will help instill trust in each other. The more you become friends the more in tune you will be with eah other. Its still pretty early days to expect too much from him (although I am not justifying the napping at all! ....) just a suggestion. I spent Good luck and keep us posted. Cx |
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ella
Gold Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 5:46:42 PM
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Hi Khira, please make sure his teeth have been checked & rasped properly. Not being willing to go forwards & not standing still when you 'held' him for the car to pass, but described by you as a 'good' horse normally could show pain when the bit comes into action?  |
   
"If an 'alternative treatment' has reliable effect it becomes classified simply as MEDICINE" D.B. |
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khira
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
182 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 8:09:55 PM
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Hi Ella
The vet did check his teeth when he was vetted because the first horse I had had off the dealer needed his teeth rasping desperately.
He recommended I got them done as a routine thing but nothing urgent needed doing. And to be honest i ride more western style then english - especially out hacking and hardly had a contact other than the actual aid to stop. Its standing he has a problem with - he wasn;t actually spooking at anything but was throwing his head around and then backing up after about 20 seconds of us standing there like a childs paddy at being asked to wait. He then seemed to get all hot and bothered and its only after I got off (to prevent us falling backwards down a ditch) and standing him in hand for 5 mins whilst we both calmed down ( I was near tears and he stands fine in hand)
He was then as good as gold again but i didn't have the nerve to ask him to stand.
The dealer is coming down and regardless of how he acts with her on board I will ride him out with her walking and show her what I mean, she can then either tell me what I'm doing wrong and maybe then we can work through it but all I know at this stage is I am a nervous rider (after a bad fall last year) and in this kind of situation I cant hold my nerve long as I get flash backs of what happened at the bad fall - that was from a horse napping which resulted in the horse bronking and twisting and me faling off -
I'l keep you all posted with what happens and hopefully it'l all work out ok.
Nic
Nic |
Nicola |
Edited by - khira on 05 Jun 2009 8:16:27 PM |
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deebee
Silver Member
262 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2009 : 8:58:08 PM
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Ah Khira, this makes it much more definite; the horse may well be picking up your distinct negative feeling about this situation, and feeding from it. Certainly try to see what the dealer does, she really ought to take him back - and then try to make doubly sure that your next horse is bomb proof; or get some good lessons and help for reprogramming how you feel about that bad situation! It's perfectly understandable to have such a feeling about a problem like that - but horses are soooo sensitive...
I'll ask around - it's bolton in lancashire, is it? |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 06:54:37 AM
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| I don't think that getting off to diffuse the situation is a bad thing so long as you get back on again and all is well. If it's a confidence issue for you both it's probably a good way to deal with it. I've done that many times rather than have a battle I may not have won. Also I have found that sometimes if you sit there quietly with your legs gently on and wait him out he'll eventually go forward. |
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khira
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
182 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 10:25:10 AM
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I have an update on the situation.
I have managed to trace his previous rider/owner since her name and address had been hand written in his passport.
I feel so sorry for the lad - have his name now - (he was un-named at the dealer) he is called marty - she picked him up as a trainer / rider after some ppl bought him off a dealer as nervous riders but had the same problems as me but worse.
He was in a poorly state, feet a total mess, underweight. He had heart bared shoes on up until he left her because his feet were so bad (is that not remedial shoeing?) . He is a right grump in the stable so I assume from this he has been starved or something similar as he is VERY protective of his food. She also spent a lot of money on him having muscle therapy and massage because his muscles were all knotted up and just wrong throughout his entire body.
She also thought he had been beaten at some stage which also suggests why if i go to use to whip to back my legs up when running backwards he goes worse.
She said she didn't own him but had him for about 8 months - couldn;t buy him in the end due to her husband loosing his job and hence the old owners who had initially bought him off a dealer sent him to this girl in Cheshire.
She spent a lot of time long reining him on the roads and the very basics due tho this problem of running backwards. He has been sat on the bonnet of a car before - down ditches - all due to this habit. She said she has never known a horse like him because he could be yards from the stables on his way home and he would do his stopping trick - running backwards and refusing at all to go forwards even if they could see home. Whereas most horses that nap are doing it to return home. She is also the one who has done the schooling in the school.
She thinks its a confidence thing and with time it will improve (as it did with her as he was really really bad when she got him) but he is not suitable for a nervous rider as it will fuel the problem.
I feel so sorry for him. There is no way he can stay with me as I cannot deal with this with my stage of riding yet I dont want him passed from pillar to post.
And then there is the money side of it - I've already spent well over 5k - with vettings, transport, teeth rasping - buying the horse - not to mention all the heartache.
I wish i'd never set foot near this girl. I'd been told the horse had been in the same home since a 4 year old - one day evented and show jumped etc - its all a big pack of lies!!! all of it |
Nicola |
Edited by - khira on 06 Jun 2009 10:27:59 AM |
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Nut
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2838 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 10:58:17 AM
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Nicola, so sorry to hear that instead of a wonderful experience of buying a horse you have had two bad experiences. I would seek legal council on your rights, you should be protected as buyer who was sold a horse who does not meet the description given and/or your stated fact that you are a nervous novice rider.
I hope there is a happy outcome for both you and the horse x |
     www.ndlarabians.webs.com
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deebee
Silver Member
262 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 11:21:27 AM
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Grr this is a story I've heard such a lot - I know there are some good dealers but I've not heard of any!
so sorry for you, and for the horse; it sounds like he's got real issues that just need someone to listen to him properly. It's so sad!
I do feel that if you could possibly work with him - and yourself - you together would have a truly great partnership and you would feel SO good about yourself! It's a matter of finding the right person, though, and being incredibly patient; not an easy task, I know. Mark Rashid's book 'Horses never lie' would be a good start, though.
You should have a good legal position, now that you've found the true history - unless she just says she told you all this, etc!
Good luck; I'll ask around a bit x |
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member
Wales
3776 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 12:14:58 PM
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aw - poor lad, he deserves someone to see him through now, surely!
Just a thought, did the vet carefully inspect his bits at the vetting? We had a pony for backing who had seen a lot of teh world and was easy to back, but he would sit in ditches out hacking (even with a ride of 15 to follow/lead) - it turned out he was a bit riggy |
- V Khazad - V Calacirya & V Sulime - Quarida(L) - V Boogie Knights - V Hamra Tofiq |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 12:25:54 PM
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Oh Nicola, my heart goes out to you but if you had professional help you could so reap the benefits.
He isn't a bad horse, the poor boy has been owned by bad people.
Have you thought of looking into Natural Horsemanship? It is great for building confidence in horses and owners.
Definately second Mark Rashid's book....
Good luck
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 12:28:51 PM
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| Oh you poor pair. Do you know of anyone you can bring in to ride him and work with him rather than have the problems of finding another? An experienced instructor who can gently re educate him. He seems to be much better now than he was. Perhaps long reining him out may help you both. It's so awful for something like this to happen to you - and the poor horse. |
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2009 : 2:58:29 PM
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I'm not surprised by this - I had the feeling this horse had a history. I suppose passports do have their uses.
Nicola - this dealer blatantly lied to you. You now know the real history of the horse and you should definitely tell her everything you've found out and demand she takes the horse back and gives you a full refund. You're in even more of a strong position now that you've talked to an old owner. If she digs in her heels and tries to talk to round just end the conversation and tell her you're going to be referring the case to Trading Standards and will also be instructing a solicitor.
It's a shame for this horse but he needs to be with someone who is experienced with problem horses. That person isn't you. You could end up getting injured or worse. This is your hobby, as you said you've already spent a lot of money. Horses and riding should be fun, something you look forward to - not something that should reduce you to tears. Even if you don't get hurt your confidence with horses could be destroyed for life. Get your money back and then look for something that is much more suitable. There are lots of fabulous, quiet, safe, trustworthy horses out there that you will be able to have fun with. I do know a couple of dealers who are okay - one here in Preston and one Manchester way. The ideal horse for you is out there but sadly this one isn't it. If I can be of any help just let me know. |
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kathleen
Platinum Member
England
1835 Posts |
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Horse running backwards - advice pls - update!
