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sammyd0380
Gold Member
England
1169 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 11:22:25 AM
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Hi Sammy,
Actually I think you are going to have a very very beautiful baby with Tobago that will be as fast as it is beautiful. While your sire line is to Kuhailan Afas via the great Comet and dam line to the stunningly beautiful Bright Gleam..., a Kuhailan Ajuz of the Ibn Rodan (Rodania) promising great robustness and Tobago is also Kuhailan - promising great athletic ability from both pedigrees, what you have in this marriage is multiples of the great ARAX. Arax was by Amurath Sahib, renowned as a race horse sire! So the resulting foal should be smooth, lovely head, big luminous eye, well balanced and if a colt, exceptionally beautiful. You'll be able to race the baby and show it in halter...That is the promise of the combination of the two pedigrees! Looking forward to seeing the result!
Bia,
Good luck to your friends! Please keep us posted! |
Edited by - Egbert on 23 Mar 2007 11:23:57 AM |
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saraht
Silver Member
England
414 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 12:28:52 PM
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Good Morning Egbert, if it is not too much of an imposition would you please have a look at may mares pedigree - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zerdarli We are seriously thinking of putting her in foal again and I would appreciate your thoughts on what lines would complement her breeding. Her (rising 12 year old) son who has become my daughters been there - done it all horse and is by Ibn Tigris (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ibn+tigris), he was chosen because of his temprament and the fact you could drive a bus through his back legs (an area that needs improvement on 'darli) and whilst I know that 'darli has a lot of Crabbett/GSB with a little Polish thrown in, I know little about Ibn Tigris's lines and would love to find a similar stallion, or another that would gel as well. Thanks, in advance, for your time.
Sarah |
 Bramble 'darli  Birdy  Zirrus  Poppy |
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sammyd0380
Gold Member
England
1169 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 1:59:31 PM
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Dear Egbert,
Thankyou so much!! I am so pleased that you approve of my mare! I know that Kate will be very happy too! I will definitely let you know what happens, and the result of this mating.
I will try and post a picture of Mehshalla if I can work the thing out!!
Thanks again for your valuable expertise. It is massively appreciated |
www.samadracing.co.uk |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 4:08:59 PM
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I am indeed delighted! I have to admit I was a bit surprised when a racing breeder expressed interest in sending a mare to Tobago - almost all his other mares are from more show-minded breeders - but it's great to hear that this baby should be both fast and beautiful! And fascinating to know the sources of these qualities in the pedigrees. Thank you so much Egbert! |
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Timberwolf
Gold Member
England
726 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2007 : 11:01:33 PM
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Hi Egbert,
Thank you so much for your comments and your time. I musy say I like my arabians to be tall and elegant.
The particular stallions that interest me are Toman, H Tobago and Artist
Thanks again.
Jackie. x |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 12:24:29 PM
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Hi Jackie!
Wonderful group of stallions! Think you would do well with any of them!
Kate and Sammy,
While there are no guarantees there is a sufficient number of racing lines between the two pedigrees combined with the outstanding structure and heart on both sides that the chances seem quite reasonable that you should have tremendous potential for speed. Think it is often forgotten that the Polish and Russian lines are traditionally tested by racing and that the Amurath Sahib lines were always notable for speed. When you count the numbers of lines to him via the outstanding Arax alone...the idea that the resulting foal would have to have some aptitude for racing, doesn't seem unreasonable. Also, unless very badly mistaken, the Archers have a stallion similarly bred to the combined Bright Gleam and Silver Ripple that has done well racing... and found on the bottom side of the mare's pedigree.
Sarah T...,
Isn't your Zerdarli appreciated for her superbly forgiving temperament? She is pure in the strain Menaghi via the Blunt import Egyptian Ferida...This carries a lot of pretty but more importantly the extreme sweetness, gentleness of all the strains. Her sire line is to the Ali Pasha Sherif line stallion, Mahruss. In between a lot of majestic pretty comes in via Hanif and Ahmoun two very lovely and powerful grays. If she is chestnut then would expect that the influence of Mikeno would be quite strong....in terms of looks which would be smooth, strongly built-a powerful ride and quite attractive to look at.
Ibn Tigris presents a problem....He has a Polish, Kuhailan Haifi sire line, and his dam line goes to the wonderful Davenport import, *Urfah...a renowned mare on the desert that was so highly thought of that troops had to be dispatched to fight off the Bedu who tried to take her back before she could reach the ship! This extraordinary combination of lines to include the fabulous Fadjur makes for an extraordinary horse. I think you would have to come over to the states to find a very similarly bred stallion. Conversely the Pecks' Dervatiw Gwyddion has some similar elements that would perhaps bring forth some of the characteristics that you found so valuable in the cross...
Thank you for you questions...Your mare appears to be a delightful character!
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Gwidmum
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
166 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2007 : 5:03:50 PM
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| Hello to both Egbert and Sarah!! It feels like 'Deja vu'...but, uncannily, Ibn Tigris was the sire of the very FIRST foal Dave and I ever bred at Paslow Hall!! I had seen Pauline Hitchings showing him many years ago and admired him, for the same reasons as you Sarah, we had purchased our lovely gelding Grey Warrior from her, and liked her stock, and were familiar with his American lines. We bred a lovely Crabbet/Polish mare to her called Rasharna, by Prince Amru. The resulting filly was lovely, very stretchy and had a lovely nature. She was sold to a lady in Norfolk who still owns her and competes long distance rides on her! I think she must be rapidly approaching 20 now!! Horse not owner!! As Egbert rightly points out Dervatiw Gwyddion, carries a lot of those similar lines, is also tall and stretchy and has a wonderful disposition! I wonder if we always tend to 'go' for a similar type!! This thread is fascinating, I always read the new pages first. Good Luck....Wonder what happened to Ibn Tigris??? Jean |
GWIDMUM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 12:07:49 PM
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HI Jean and Sarah,
Tried to track down Ibn Tigris without too much luck. His last foals were in '96 and there is no indication that he ever left the UK, at least not in the US datasource which seems fairly useless post 2000. Hopefully Sarah, you will keep us posted?! |
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saraht
Silver Member
England
414 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2007 : 7:16:06 PM
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| Hi Jean and Egbert, when I used Ibn Tigris he was at Sharique Arabian Stud near Sittingbourne in Kent. As far as I am aware he was fit and well in 96 as I helped out at the stud for a little while then. I will put out an FAO to someone on here who used to weork there and see if she knows. I have also never seen any of his stock out and about but I am now in Dorset sp wouldn't be local. |
Bramble 'darli Birdy Zirrus Poppy |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 10:30:15 AM
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| Will look forward to hearing...Thank you Sarah. Obviously Ibn Tigris was/is a lovely stallion. |
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louisejo
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1313 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 2:28:19 PM
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Hiya, as far as i know Tigris is still with Roger Wooten at Sharique Arabains in Kent. I think he is about 23 / 24 now.
He had quite a few offspring in the south east area, not sure what happened to them all though. He is a lovely stallion, was built to ride but unfortunatly never made it to the show ring under saddle. As mentined he had a wonderful temperament, he was a pleasure to look after and this was passed on to his babies.
I have contact details in you need them. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2007 : 10:22:42 PM
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Louisejo,
Many thanks! Would love to see a photo if there is one around to share.
What makes the combination of blood so very very interesting between Ibn Tigris and Zerdarli for breed observers/breeders is that it demonstrates the rule that the breeder must understand what lines are doubled on two sides of a pedigree and what those lines bring to the possible foal.
My rule is that the first two horses in a pedigree that match up both in being the same horse AND the same color, usually has a greater influence in the resulting foal than other, independent and non-repeated lines. Of course if the parent is a major dominant for certain characteristics, the dominant gene can over-ride the combined ones.
What we have in Ibn Tigris and Zerdarli is the marriage of Ferida on both sides...Ferida's contribution to Ferda I've suspected was recessive, but the gene acted as a dominant in Fejr. Why? Because Cecil Covey noted specifically that those horses containing just one line to Fejr were consistently sweet tempered up to 5 generations or more away from her! Never heard that description of Ferda, unless doubled, even though Ferda is seen so frequently in the pedigrees of sweet tempered horses.... Thus doubled it does seem to act just like a dominant gene.
Again, many thanks Louisejo...Hopefully Sarah can repeat the breeding!
Edited to add: I went back and ran the pedigree just to see how many crosses of Ferida via Fejr and Ferda each side brought to the Ibn Tigris x Zerdarli son and was actually startled to find that there were 6 crosses via Tigris and 12 via Zerdarli! Heavens, if the resulting foal had a bad temperament it would have to be the result of brain damage or a mutation. No wonder Sarah's boy is so wonderful. Truly a golden cross! |
Edited by - Egbert on 28 Mar 2007 10:39:34 AM |
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Audrey
New Member
7 Posts |
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saraht
Silver Member
England
414 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2007 : 4:27:55 PM
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Dear Egbert
Thank you SO much for the information. I will reply fully when I can (be warned!) I wanted to let you know that I appreciate all your work and that I haven't been ignoring the thread. - I have changed my home PC and my modem won't connect me!!!
So can only use the one at work and I will be shot if I get caught.
I am travelling to Kansas City for a fortnight Easter week if you know of any worthwhile farms to visit I would appreciate any details.
Many thanks again
Sarah |
Bramble 'darli Birdy Zirrus Poppy |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2007 : 9:46:55 PM
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Audrey,
Thank you! Seems you have three horses all with the same dam line to Rodania with all three via Rose of Sharon. Ergo they should all be extremely healthy, hardy and fecund. Next they are not bred to be show horse ornamentss but either racing or endurance...tho' with age and condition, they could do quite well in the show ring.
Gabanat should be attractive, a tad long with great bone and solid hip...from which he can drive...If racing, would imagine he is very good over medium distances..A reliable horse, would imagine if he is being ridden for pleasure, he is just that, a pleasurable horse.
From the pedigree, he would have started out to pleasant to attractive and the older he has gotten the more beautiful with a large, expressive eye.
Silver Mercury would have a similar description to Gabanat-good bone, excellent ground covering action, healthy but would be somewhat shorter coupled with a bit finer bone and perhaps one of those flaxen like grays, flea-bitten with a bit of the peacock about him?
Coral Dream is a bit of an enigma in that the paternal granddam is composed of horses I've never seen before as they are bred in South America and trace to not only Crabbet Park but to horses found behind the old Iron Curtain from stock that is not particularly well known. Again, would think these are racing lines but extremely pleasant with quite a bit of pretty interspersed amongst the horses of speed. Would expect she is a very lovely mare, with outstanding bone and is strongly put together. Her sire line is to Nazeer Via Ansata Shah Zaman with the Rodania/Rose of Sharon, Kuhailan Ajuz strain previously noted. Definitely a 'doing'horse-good athlete and were you to opt to breed to a show horse would have equally nice results. What is particularly nice about the Rodanias is in most cases, if you fall off, they'll stop and wait for you to recover and get back on-perhaps one of the reasons they were so highly thought of out in the desert.
Sarah! Oh gosh! If you can get hold of an old Arabian Horse World Magazine they usually have the studs listed by state...Will you be in the state of Kansas or Missouri? I don't know of any studs in Kansas but Missouri has several. Feel free to email me privately and I'll try to copy down some names for you!
Kate!
Good points. Artiste is a wonderful stallion and still very very interested the ladies! |
Edited by - Egbert on 31 Mar 2007 10:45:16 PM |
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Timberwolf
Gold Member
England
726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2007 : 11:00:04 PM
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Hi Kate,
Thanks for your comments. Very tempted with Artist but not ready to breed from Muz just yet. Just getting her ridden career underway. Maybe by the time we're ready your lovely boy will have started to prove himself under saddle..... which I'm sure he will.
Jackie. x |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 01:35:49 AM
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Sorry to jump in Egbert, Kate and Timberwolf, but as much as I admire Artist as a stallion and producer of beautiful horses, would this breeding between Artist and Mozcata be concentrating too much on Aswan blood. Maybe this is a good thing??
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 07:31:43 AM
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Hi Carla,
While you are very right to be concerned whenever linebreeding and inbreeding to certain horses...the case of Aswan, most specifically the tendency to see crooked legs, and perhaps other issues, seems to have been pretty well over-ridden in most of the Russian bloodlines...Artist, Toman, and Tobago, who all carry Aswan/Nazeer blood et.al., if recalling properly, all have extremely good legs...So have a hunch the leg issue is moot (take a look at Hafid Jamil's pedigree and all the crosses to Nazeer...extraordinarily stunning, yet Nazeer has often been accused of causing offset cannons and pasterns)....It depends on the individuals being crossed. Unless Mozcata in the flesh is not of the stunning quality one has come to associate with the Russians, and has leg issues or something else heretofore unclear, I'd not worry too much. Such a cross with any of the aforementioned should produce a rather exotic individual! |
Edited by - Egbert on 01 Apr 2007 07:46:25 AM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 08:42:13 AM
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Very interesting Egbert. Mozcata certainly has no problems as far as legs are concerned and she is definitely a stunning individual with buckets of presence, she looks amazing when she is being ridden.
Carla, xx. |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
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Jingo
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3632 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 3:03:08 PM
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Thank you Kate for your kind words and promo for Toman, which I'm sure he appreciates.
Timberwolf, Kate is quite correct Toman DOES NOT stand at stud. Whether he will in the future is doubtful BUT this decision will be made later - he has FULLY proved himself under saddle and in hand, we are now awaiting the arrival of his children before making any future decisions.
Remember the faults of the children are always piled on the sire |
Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk
      
photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 4:57:09 PM
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Similarly as when we sold Imad to Diana Whittome, I had the fortunate foresight to retain 3 breedings to Toman as we expected great things from him, which he has more than accomplished - as has Imad. Imad has proved himself to be an exceptional sire, and I expect Toman to be also.
So I am very lucky to be expecting a Toman foal in May from Makara by Maleik El Kheil x Maliya (Mag x Maysuna). What would you expect from this pedigree Egbert - your input would be gratefully received as always.
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2007 : 5:21:01 PM
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Sorry Judith - I do realize that Toman does not need any promotion! I hope I didn't say anything wrong. I just meant to say to Timberwolf that if he were to be at stud, he would be a better choice than my stallion, because he is proven both in hand and under saddle, whereas my boy has only done the in-hand bit.
May I ask - if you are happy with Toman's first babies from your own mares, will you consider standing him at public stud in future? (Sorry if you have answered this question elsewhere and I've missed it.) |
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Tail Female Line....?
