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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 5:00:31 PM
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Sorry Linda have not got your e mail (archived and cannot get back). Mine is yvonne.marriott@firstcity.com. Will be interesting to see if you have the same thoughts as me.
Wanting ideas as the original plan may not be possible.
She will go to a straight whatever happens
Yvonne |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 6:07:34 PM
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Hi Egbert,
There is more than one strong influence in Menes' pedigree as I read it. Perhaps the strongest is that of Sahara through Pomponia/Mammona - the tail female of both Menes' parents.
Another strong influence is the Bairactar sire line - there must be a dominant gene in that line - looking at photos of Nabeg, Arax, and Menes, it is clear to see the likeness.
Bairactar
Arax's great grandsire Amurath, 1881, was inbred to Bairactar - at least 10 crosses.
Arax
Nabeg
Menes
BUT - you were asking us to look for the Crabbet influence and there are at least two very important contributors to Menes's genepool - the dam of Priboj, Rissalma (Shareer x Rissla) and the stallion Naseem (Skowronek x Nasra), combining two of the great mares imported by the Crabbet stud, Rodania and Dajania.
They have strengthened and revitalized the Polish Sahara/Pomponia lines with the type, substance, and quality that characterized the Crabbet horses. Rissalma combined the damlines of Queen of Sheeba, Dajania, Sobha, Rodania, and Basilisk - no wonder she was an amazing broodmare.
Menes has tremendous strength in his pedigree, from correct, strong, typey ancestors abounding in quality - he represents the best of Polish and Crabbet. Breeding him back to Crabbet lines (through English or Russian lines) has proved a recipe for success.
I am looking very much forward seeing your input on Menes and his pedigree - the more I learn, the more I find out I don't know and I would love to learn more.
Anne |
     
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
Edited by - Anfi on 20 Jan 2007 10:28:23 PM |
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linda
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1772 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 9:50:47 PM
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Dear Egbert,
I wonder if you could give me your opinion on whom you would breed these two mares to?
Antigua El Jamaal (Al Kidir x Athenais El jamaal) and Yazmeena Estopa (Om EL Azadik x Om El Shiva Estopa)
I do have Idea's but would be very interested to hear your input!
If you prefer to answer privately my e-mail address is lmlyall5@hotmail.com
Thanking you in advance,
Linda |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 12:14:16 PM
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Hi Folks,
Sorry to be so long away...minor emergency cropped up but all is well now. Will briefly talk about Menes. Carla, Anne and Kirsty-fabulous work. But the horse that you missed and IMHO why Crabbet has such strength was the Abbas Pasha line stallion Zobeyni. There is something like 17 crosses to him appearing on both sides of Menes pedigree through the Crabbet lines.
One of the reasons the British bred/Crabbet lines nick so well once established in a line such as Menes is blessed is that they are heavily linebred and often somewhat inbred, as general rule, far back in the pedigrees. This is the case of Zobeyni, sire of Harkan who is the sire of Aziz who is the sire of Mesaoud! Zobeyni is the sire of Bint Nura dam of Bint Nura dam of Daoud; Zobeyni is the sire of Wazir, sire of Mahruss; Zobeyni is the sire of Yemama II dam of Yamama III who is the dam of Mesaoud, and so on. And how is it all pulled together? Through Nefisa, a bay, dam of Narghileh, dam of Nureddinn II; and Nefisa is the dam of Nasra, dam of Naseem! And those horses combined seem to exert a huge influence on Menes. How? Look at his overall body structure compared to those Arax sons and daughters/Ofir lines which have NO Crabbet, i.e., Bask being a classic example. They are longer over all, have not as pleasing a face at rest, and the necks are comparatively placed on upside down-compared to the same lines coupled with Crabbet Park/Old English. Also look at the strength of Menes bred back to horses carrying Crabbet...Balaton to Kubinec being classic examples.
If you go back into your favorite lines, look at the Crabbet lines-you might be shocked to find just how heavily line bred they are even tho' appearing comparatively far back...Nevertheless there is super strength there and it comes forward as dominants carrying certain characteristics, depending often on color to carry specific traits forward.
Carla-where is Hami?
More tomorrow to answer Sue's, Cinders, and Linda questions.
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Edited by - Egbert on 04 Dec 2006 8:58:59 PM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 3:13:39 PM
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Sorry Egbert, I should have picked up on Zobeyni after our recent conversations!!! I also don't know where Hami came from!!! I think I was having a "blonde" moment (apologies to all blondes)!!!!
I will try much harder next time!!!!
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 9:01:52 PM
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Hi Carla,
Have had a few of those myself. Oops! Back in awhile! |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 10:52:23 AM
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Sue, Kimm's dam line traces to Bint Helwa, a Seglawi Jedran about whom I've written extensively here. His sire line is very interesting as it traces to Rabdan via Anter. The stories are that Anter was very intelligent, loyal (wouldn't be handled by anyone but his regular groom), and sired fabulous mares. He was the herd sire for King Farouk, a beautiful, very Seglawi looking stallion, which he was-also tail female to Bint Helwa. So Kimm must be very courageous. You will have to work hard to win over this stallion's trust and loyalty but once accomplished he will be yours alone forever. P.S. Have corrected Kimm's pedigree on the All Breed site.
Kalibar's sire line is to Nazeer via Aswan. Aswan had a stunning head but very iffy legs. However, those horses coming out of Russia are absolutely renowned for outstanding limbs so that issue has been overcome. In terms of character think he would have an outgoing full of fun kind of character...Ready to do whatever you want and would be exceptionally strong and determined to overcome all challanges falling his way.
Cinders, Your girl is in reality a Seglawi Jedran, not a Kuhailan Jellaby (a mistake that has been noted through mtDNA testing). Therefore the biggest problem you have with this line is probably a slightly peaky croup-something many of them seem to have. If Qasim was superb, can you use him again now that you have seen what a great baby he sired? If not, would look for a beautiful stallion (SE, of course unless you want to go outside-if so would be very tempted to try something Polish)with a particularly smooth, long croup and tight coupling. The one stallion whose foals just knocked my socks off this year visiting the UK (and I think the only sE's that I looked at so am probably selling a bunch that are available short) was KZ Ibreez. Can't urge you enough to go see them. There was an Ibreez filly there that was so captivating I didn't want to leave her. The only way you will ever really know is to look at as many babies as possible of any stallion that you particularly like. Some stallions are just fabulous but not all the babies are as good so looking is critical.
Linda, Your girls have such spectacular pedigrees that it is a real temptation to go Polish or Russian with them-especially if they could use a little stretch. There are so many fabulous stallions of those lines in the UK amongst which a great selection can be found at Al Waha, Cullinghurst, Halsdon, Wendy Karr's (can't think of her farm's name), Georgian Arabians, the Pecks, Auchmillan and I know I've left someone out that has absolutely superb lines that would suit...Would really like to see you go and visit all of these studs between now and April. Heck, if the babies are to be keepers it might even be fun to try some of the old English lines just to lock in great limbs and a fair degree of substance...Perhaps a breeding to one of the Silvern Idyll sons...If you could go abroad and import frozen semen or cooled if on the continent...Were they mine I'd be taking a hard look at Kubinec or Rusleem at home, too. You have such mares that you can fairly freely look for stallions that make your heart sing. Those are the ones to breed to as you have such beautifully bred mares you could probably breed to a Zebra and have a stunning result.
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Edited by - Egbert on 05 Dec 2006 11:08:08 AM |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 12:18:26 PM
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Mnay thanks and interestingly my plan had been to use a close relation via KZ Ibreez Sire Line. We had planned to use Al Lahab, in fact we have been trying for a while but circumstances have not permitted. I believe Ibreez is by Al Maraam who has the same dam as Al Lahab and if memory serves me correctly his sire is the father of Al Lahab's sire.
My husbad was captivated by HG The Vision when he visited Ariela in Israel. Unusual as we neither of us like black horses normally.
I saw Ibreez some 3 years ago now but at that time he was rather ungainly, not unusual I think with his bloodline.
Our other thought was to try for NK Hafid Jamil but it appears he may not be available to SE mares.
PVA Karim is also on our list as is Ansata Sinan both of whom have produced offspring that i have liked a lot. Of course this rather depends on their owners allowing us to use them.
Yvonne |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 1:31:51 PM
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Yvonne,
What fun! So many splendid choices! I love NK Hafid Jamil and have seen several of his youngsters in photos, not in the flesh, but they look stunning! Have to say though that of all the babies I've looked at this year, Ibreez's are the ones my mind keeps going back to...and that could also be as they had the most fetching of personalities and that could be a large measure of the way they are being handled! Interesting stallion. Would love to see photos of HG The Vision-and all the other horses of which you wrote though, hasten to add that I did see Al Lahab at Om El Arab this past year. |
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sue
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
169 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 2:36:48 PM
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Thank you very much for the info egbert! cant wait until next year!
thanks, Hannah |
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 5:17:13 PM
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Egbert
I have some super phots of The Vision but they are not digital and I really do not want to part with them. There are photos of her on the Ariela website.
I was not lucky enough to go there but my husband went about 4 years ago and was immensely impressed with all the horses there. He did not see one that he would not have brought home, The Vision was his favourite by far but I am sure she will never be sold and even if she was she would not be in our league.
As far as I can see they have bred wisely and well and deserve all the success they are having.
Thanks for your thoughts, it is alway good to have another opinion one one's choices.
I hope to be able to meet you next year at Al Waha
Yvonne |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 01:42:15 AM
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Hannah,
Please keep us posted...
Yvonne,
Could you post Ariela's web page? Would love to see what their horses are like. Am very impressed that your husband was so taken with them. Sounds like they are making very astute breeding decisions.
Am really so looking forward to meeting everyone that has been posting here at Al Waha! Think it will be an absolute hoot! |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 09:28:50 AM
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Hello Egbert, I have been the occasional reader of this fascinating thread, but it takes some reading now!
Can you help me to throw some light on my mare G.Fantastica.(Chestnut mare) She is by Ibn Estopa out of Fantatica. I wish that I could put the link to all breeds pedigree site for you, maybe someone else can please?
This lovely mare is hot !, sweet natured in the stable, and quite tall, around 15.1hands, all I expected from her sire. I don't know too much about her dam line, by this I mean knowing thier charactors and having seen them in the flesh, with the exception of Fanatica who Caroline Reeves owned.
My question is, this mare is now in-foal to Mirokan,(Mirok Monpelou x Merana) the Russain stallion from Sax Arabians. He is a bay chap, and I would really love a bay foal. As Fantastica has always given me chestnuts, is there any possibilty she just might throw me a bay? and another question. All her babies seem to grow in hieght quite late on, I mean about 3yrs onwards they shoot up to well over 15 hands, where does this come form? I,ve use different stalions on her and they all grow late, and all mature well over 15.1hands.
Sorry to ask what is probably an obvious answer that my mare will foal a chestnut, but I live in hope!
Sue |
Edited by - SueB on 06 Dec 2006 09:31:51 AM |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 09:41:25 AM
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Hi Sue,
Mirokan is bay by a chestnut stallion, so your foal as a 50/50 chance to be bay (and 50/50 chance to be chestnut!)
When is it due?
Marie |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 11:19:43 AM
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She is due early March. Thanks for raising my hopes by 50%........!
I have a record of breeding a bay to a bay and getting a lovely bright chestnut with the blonde mane and tail, I know loads love em, I do too, but I would really like to walk out in the morning and see another colour in the yard!
I do have two grey broodmares now. Phew.... |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2006 : 11:23:16 AM
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Hi Sue, I think Mirokan is a good choice for her, a friend has a Mirokan filly this year and she is very very smart! he is a nice stallion!
yes Marie is right, 50/50 bay or chestnut. My friends mare is chestnut too and her filly foal is bay. |
IIsis Arabians
www.iisisarabians.com www.ali-abbas.co.uk
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 10:39:44 AM
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Yvonne,
Thank you so much!
Sue and all,
Am on the road but as soon as I'm back will try to check out the color issues-usually not my forte and it does seem that Michelle and Marie Molly have steered you in the right direction. However, will look anyway. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 11:16:35 AM
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Sue,
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/g+fantastica
You may very well get a bay but both your sire and dam line are very very strong for the chestnut gene. The sire is a full brother to *El Shaklan and accounts for that size and growth spurt. They will be even taller when they reach 7-8 years of age!
The dam line is absolutely superb! Fanatica's sire Namiet was an absolutely stunning stallion with only one bit that I didnt' care for-he was narrow between the eyes...but structurally he was simply a stunning but typical Russian. They didn't keep a stallion in tact unless he was as close to flawless as possible-including in the temperament category. The dam, Farha was by Makor-Probably one of the most stunning straight Spanish stallions around and Peter Houtappel (sp?) thought the world of him. For that man to acquire the stallion says volumes to the horse's quality. Finally the dam line is the finest of the Crabbets tracing back to the incredible Rose of Sharon and on to Rodania. So you have a mare whose sire line is to Nazeer, dam line to Rodania, thus a kuhailan ajuz by strain. It just doesn't get any better! Well done you! |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 12:29:52 PM
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Thank you Egbert indeed. We bought this girl from the Gucci dispersal sale in 1996, she was 2 yrs old then and about 14.2 hands. She has just grown and grown, now standing 15.1, probably more.
John and I used to pick the short straw to bring her in at night from her paddock, so hot was she, she could actually walk on two back legs leaving us trembling in fear of our lives we soon learnt this was just her fun with us, and given a long rope she would dance around us untill all the high blowing stopped and our hearts stopped pounding too.
Now she is more sedate, only blows when we ask.
I would love her to be shown, but never dared to take her incase she created havoc in the ring, I know no one who could keep up with her pace.
Thanks very much, you have lifted my spirits today. |
Edited by - SueB on 08 Dec 2006 12:30:52 PM |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 1:03:35 PM
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Hi Egbert
I have looked up my horse Ali G on allbreed and am I right that his tail female line is Kehileh Dajanieh? If so, what can you tell me about this. I have read through all 27 pages but it is still very confusing. I am amazed at your depth of knowledge.
Lynda - am sure you are more than qualified to tell me about this too!
Thanks, Liv x |
     
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 7:48:08 PM
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Sue B,
She sounds very much like you should be showing her! WOW! What about asking one of the Jones boys to show her...They could keep up! She is definitely World Class quality and can only imagine if she debuted at the Nationals. Think she would set people right on their collective ears! Just looked at your web page and her daughter is a knock out, too!
Liv,
Yes, Ali G's tail female is indeed, Kuhilan Dajania-a sub strain, as is Rodania of Kuhailan Ajuz. This line is renowned for producing outstanding stallions and the stallions, in turn, are stunning sires. Naseem, Naziri, Nefisa, et.al., are simply the creme de la creme.
In terms of character...Honest, reliable, usually very sweet tempered-a solid all around creature. This is one of those lines that well-cared for, just keeps on giving so I'd probably describe them as having tremendous heart and define 'well-rounded' and 'versatile'. Would love to see a picture if you have a chance!? |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 10:13:27 PM
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Egbert - Wow, got it right! Must have taken some of it in. Your description is spot on, he is such a super boy, like my best friend! Thanks so much for your reply.
I will try to post a picture but if anyone can help I would be grateful as it seems like quite an ordeal to do.
Liv |
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Tail Female Line....?
