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Apollonaris
New Member
Denmark
3 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2006 : 04:54:28 AM
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Hi,
I've been reading my way through this fascinating thread over the last few days, and wondered if anyone could help me.
My geldings (Apollonaris) tail female line is Sahara OA 1845, hence his strain is Keheilet Mimrieh, and if I read the pedigree correctly, his tail male line (terminology?) is Kuheilan Haifi.
I read some of the postings on the influence of the weight of other strains in the pedigree to qualify how the strain manifests itself in a particular horse, and this is where I can't figure out how to read the pedigree 
I checked on Allbreedpedigree (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/apollonaris), and it seems his pedigree is predominantly different Kuheilan substrains, with a dash of Seglawi.
Would anyone like to comment on how these different strains would be expected to balance out, or influence one another, and what characteristics would be expected to be found in my gelding?
This is probably a bit off the current discussion, but it took a good while for me to be registered, so apologies for jumping in like this 
I'll be grateful for any help you could provide, and am most impressed by the knowledge held by those posting in this thread,
Lisa |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2006 : 11:16:54 PM
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Hi Kash!
What a lovely Kuhailan pedigree...Kuhailan Moradi/Memri to be precise...one of the Listening Horses per Davenport...They seem to be listening for fast approaches and had the reputation of signaling when hearing someone or something approach-terrific if one is the object of an ambush,,,not too helpful if planning to commit one! Delightful, fun horses...great rides, solid horses, wonderful movers, usually quite sensible and a popular Nationals winning line in the UK, e.g., mare winners include: Rishenda, Fanchon, Maesta, and BB Balenca; stallions: Sharzar, Manich, Bespechni, Gonorar, and Granit tend to typify the line. Since your girl is a double Kuhailan would tend to look first for an outstanding outcross Seglawi stallion...Ocean Eilat (absolutely fabulous pedigree-do any of you know if he is standing in the UK?), Ali Khamsin, and WSA Charismma would be my first choices.
Hi Lisa!
Welcome to the thread! Would expect your boy with his multiples of Celebes to be more Seglawi and refined looking despite the fact that he is a Kuhailan...His sire is also a Seglawi via Woloszka...so there is actually a very strong Seglawi influence. Would also bet that he is very intelligent, athletic, and you are wondering why he was gelded because he has become extraordinarily beautiful with age...Eyes are getting bigger, and everything is put together wonderfully-he is unusual because you would think of him as being almost elegant rather like an equine Rudolph Nureyev...as opposed to what one might expect with the more Kuhailan types one associates with Aladdinn or Kuhailan Haifi or Witraz...Apollonaris must be a wonderful ride and great fun!
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Edited by - Egbert on 12 Nov 2006 09:30:38 AM |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 09:31:11 AM
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Hi Lisa and welcome to the Alines another one from Denmark, my! we are global are'nt we. makes our world even smaller when we can communicate with like minded people and make friends though the arabianlines |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 1:27:38 PM
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Also a big welcome Lisa, you will soon become addicted!!!! Your horses sound lovely, can you post any pictures??
Egbert, I think Ocean Eilat has been gelded, but please anyone, correct me if I am wrong. I can find out for sure, but somebody on AL must know?
Carla, xx. |
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Apollonaris
New Member
Denmark
3 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 7:46:20 PM
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Egbert, thanks a lot for taking the time to comment of Apollonaris' pedigree. Your comments helped me understand a bit more about how to look at the pedigree.
You're spot on wrt intelligence (makes life with him quite fun, and filled with surprises) and becoming more beautiful with age. Actually, I think he is still in the process of maturing, as even last year, he looked as if the parts didn't really fit together.
I wouldn't say he has much of an athletic appearance, but that might be down to him maturing slowly.
Lyndilou, thanks - it seems there are quite a lot of Danes on this forum, which surprised me a bit.
Tahir, thanks. I fear your warning came too late 
I'm no good at taking photographs, but I've included a couple below that might give you a hunch what he looks like:
Lisa
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 10:04:18 PM
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Hi Lisa,
Actually your boy looks very athletic as well. Perhaps 'potentially' athletic would be more descriptive: high set on neck, short back, excellent withers, good angle to the hip (what we can see of it) and the top picture shows a nice lay back of shoulder. What he does not appear to be-conditioned for show...Were he to be think you would be surprised at just how athletic he would appear. But again go back to the pedigree...besides 5 crosses to Celebes...up close, who else is appearing in multiples in the pedigree? Witraz. And if you look at Witraz ... go back on his dam line and you find a gray stallion named Anvil. Have a hunch that might be the most multiple source stallion in your boy's pedigree-thanks to the frequency of Gazella II appearing in the pedigree overall. Take a look at Anvil's photo compared to the ones you posted of your boy...
Afterthought: It might not be unfair to look at a pedigree not unlike a cookbook recipe. Instead of cooking a fabulous cake or whatever, one is cooking up a fabulous animal-which is why it is critical to understand WHO appears over and over, whether or not that individual is dominant (no question the bay Witraz is very very dominant most particularly in terms of color with the bay gene...). Conversely, Mesaoud could be easily over-ridden and I think it is because chestnuts tend to be recessive in a pedigree to a point...(am thinking out loud at the moment) and it is certain players within his pedigree that might be dominant and react with other, seemingly unrelated genes (looking at recent mtDNA matches showing that Rodania-a kuhailan and *Wadduda, a Seglawi, actually share the same tail female) tend to pull through certain specific looks, temperaments, structural components/traits.
Conversely, more recently, DISCOVER magazine, Nov. '06 issue, p. 32, points out that we don't have to be the sum total of our genes! As parents we can over-ride, externally, the gene trait for obesity, for example, in our offspring by simply changing our diets, while the baby is gestating! We might not be changed but the gene's influence could be negated in our offspring with a comparatively easy change in diet!
As we understand how the genes manifest and work, what triggers mutations, etc., we can hugely influence externally what is happening with a generation. In truth, we are probably not changing a gene so much as altering it's influence or mitigating a genetic response. |
Edited by - Egbert on 12 Nov 2006 10:39:18 PM |
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Taylor
Gold Member
England
1432 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2006 : 11:02:54 PM
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Hello Egbert,
I sent you an email but wasnt sure how often you check your account. If you have received it and have not had time to reply please forgive me.
Kirsty |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 03:49:21 AM
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Hi Kirsty,
Have answered! Sorry about that and thank you for bringing it to my attention!
Carla, could you double check about Ocean Eilat? Thanks...Am afraid he really needs to be cloned if he has been fixed.... |
Edited by - Egbert on 13 Nov 2006 03:50:08 AM |
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Elys
New Member
14 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 08:38:19 AM
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Nickie,
Thank you! Hmmm...that picture isn't very flattering is it? Appreciate your finding him. His dam was one of the most beautiful mares imaginable as a youngster. Same dam line as Carmargue, to Bint Helwa, Seglawi Jedran-and my most vivid memory was of seeing one of the UK's top breeders seeing the mare for the first time and literally frozen by her beauty: Serayya (Shahir x White Lace). Oh if you go to the next page there are two more picts of Eilat that are a tad more flattering. Well, being far less than photogenic may be heritable. Cam was almost impossible to photograph flatteringly!
Kind of fun seeing those pictures of Silver Sheena, too. Amazing how much she looks like her namesake Silver Sheen. Oh how I hope Mrs. Bowring has seen those photos! |
Edited by - Egbert on 13 Nov 2006 08:46:51 AM |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 10:37:39 AM
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Another question for Egbert:
Which is more important, the 'dominant' horses or lines in a horse's pedigree (which I assume means the ones that appear most often, or the highest 'blood percentage'?) or the 'tail female' line?
I suppose what I am wondering is can the characteristics of a given 'tail female' line (lets's say a Kulailan one) be overridden or eclipsed when the other dominant horses/lines in the pedigree are of a different type or strain (let's say Seglawi)?
I'm still finding it hard, logically and genetically, to understand how one line of a horse's pedigree (the tail female line) can determine that horse's type, qualities etc. more than any others. Surely the sire and dam of a horse each contributes 50% of its genetic make-up, and so on back through the pedigree? Why should one particular female ancestor (who may appear only once in the pedigree) have so much more influence than all the others?
Please forgive me if I'm being really dim and missing something blindingly obvious! I feel stupid that I still don't 'get' this! |
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Sheena
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1810 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 4:00:26 PM
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Hi there,
Ocean Eilat has definitly been gelded - he looks gorgeous now as a flea bitten grey. I'm not sure who owns him but she had a very succesful show at BACS this year and deservedly won the best overall home produced horse looking very handsome and in great shape.
Egbert - did you get my e-mail? I did it thorugh the link on here.
Alicia X |
Alicia
     
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 6:04:03 PM
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I am the same as you Kate, I find it hard getting my head around that one but I read about (and I cant spell it) mitracondial DNA which only carries through the female line, having been found to account for or be responsible for certain inherited traits, now maybe that can account for some of the pysical inheritence, but as for temperament I dont know ! all I know is they are finding out more and more about DNA than ever before and maybe the gentlemen from the desert knew more than we gave them credit for ! |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 8:32:47 PM
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Hi Kate! Good question. First-a disclaimer: I am not a scientist-simply a layman with a decent education which did include university courses in biology, anatomy, physiology, chemistry, physics, math studies (my degree is in Political Science BUT after wrapping up the Bachelors, went back and took the above courses preparatory for going to medical school which various events thwarted...), a burning curiosity so do a lot of reading and have been blessed with access to a number of the top universities (UC Davis, U of Kentucky, et.al.) and when puzzled have been able to talk directly to some of the head researchers. However, that won't prevent me from getting it right or wrong nor from a fair level of speculation based on my experience but most importantly trying to keep it in the more easily understood laymans' terms-HOPEFULLY.
Here is the way I understand it:
TAIL FEMALE: On the tail female line and pretty exclusive to it-the mitochondrial DNA determines the dam line and enables a scientist to trace an animal to the original mother of that species. Several years ago when discussing the mtDNA with one of the leading equine research scientists, they were singularly unclear about exactly what it can do BUT that it carries a tad more genetic weight in the pedigree. In other words before a scientist can say something is absolute they will put years of carefully executed study. Not so the breeder who tends after several generations can make generalizations that work for his/her program.
In conjunction with this is a historical perspective as it pertains to the dam line/tail female line: Recent studies conducted by the late Dr. Ann Bowling at UC Davis really set Arabian breeders on their ears when it was learned that certain lines albeit DIFFERENT strains-actually shared the same tail female! For example the Davenport import *Wadduda shares the same tail female with Rodania, with the former-a Seglawi Al Abd and the latter a Kuhailan Ajuz; the same is true of the mare *Roda and Bint Helwa-the former considered a Kuhailan Jellaby and the latter a Seglawi Jedran.
According to Dr. Bowling it might be smarter to look at the strains as a 'political statement', that is over the 3000-5000 years that the lines have been bred on the desert, certain mares were traded, captured, purchased, gifted and were incorporated into various family breeding programs from which the strains/strain names are derived. Ergo, it isn't hard to understand that some horses over a hundred or several thousand years of breeding, acquired the characteristics the families found most valuable. Of these dam lines certain ones were exceptionally consistent and that is why we see a small group of dam lines winning over and over at the national level.
Sire Line: This is fascinating...As a general rule, recent discoveries suggest that the sire line of any mammal is responsible for mutational changes!
And here is my speculation...not confirmed by scientific study ...:I think there can be a case made that certain sire lines carry frequent, positive mutational changes that we see in Arabdom and accounts for the fact that only certain sire lines are used repeatedly at the national level both: Skowronek, Kuhailan Haifi, Nazeer and Mirage, despite there being over dozens from which to choose! In other words, lets take the stallion Carmargue as a typical example of the Skowronek sire line: Skowronek could be bred to comely but not particularly gorgeous mares and the resulting baby would be staggeringly beautiful compared to those babies sired by other stallions. Bred over and over to Skowronek and in the case of Nasra...the babies were just out of this world and one would be super exceptional...Naseem was a great stallion but his full brother Naziri - Carmargue's sire line, was considered the most beautiful of all with Lady W describing him as the, "the most beautiful Arabian alive" after the departure of Naseem to Russia! Same thing happened with Cam...his full brothers and sisters were exceptional show and breeding animals but Carmargue was considered as Paul Atkinson once noted-as the sum total of all that was best in the full brothers and sisters.
So an exceptionally powerful sire line will not overcome the dam's gifts it will surely strongly influence the outcome...
paraphrasing Gazder: Size and shape come from the sire-all else from the dam.
Now when you have multiples of a dominant sire line such as Witraz they will strongly influence outcomes just as adding a lot of salt to a soup recipe will alter the taste...and actually I think that is the best way of looking at it. It isn't a 50-50 measure except if you can get hold of a Mendelian hybrid pea! Mendels rules and laws gave us a lot of guidance but the actual result in breeding great animals...is that the breeder must observe each horse in terms of dam lines, sire lines and how each line tends to operate.
Again what makes it all so 'predetermined' with an Arabian as opposed to a TB is that the Arabian has probably been bred 4500 years longer within a much tighter gene pool from which outcrosses were acquired much more slowly than what you see in more modern times. In other words inbreeding, linebreeding were practiced more accidentally than otherwise but created genes that tended to fix certain characteristics...and still does today simply because the dam line/sire line genes tend to be so strong.
Hopefully that makes sense. But if you really want to understand the influence of a dam or sire line....run the sire and dam line of each horse in the fifth generation and it helps to understand what traits are coming through and who is responsible for them! Later will try to find some material that shows how a pedigree can be weighted as a result of sire and dam lines. Though we did do that with Apollonaris's gelding who is so hugely weighted in reality to Kuhailan Haifi.
Oh and color does seem to travel with certain lines and alters their characteristics to some degree...
Lynda-couldn't agree more!
Alicia, I sent you an answer days ago and have resent it. You might want to check your 'junk mail folder'! |
Edited by - Egbert on 13 Nov 2006 8:39:42 PM |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 8:46:52 PM
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If the sire produces size and body all else the dam, someone should tell WSA Charismma he is only 14.3, yet many of his sons and daughters are well over 15 hands, I have one daughter of 15.3!,he has one grand daughter of 16 hands ! as far as colour goes he has had many beautiful grey sons and daughters, but his bay daughters have been outstanding!all from grey mares by the way! |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 9:14:47 PM
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| Ok Lynda, you have to go to the 5th generation...what dominates? That will always mitigate the pedigree...Carmargue isn't the overall strength of the pedigree, is he? But he dominates in terms of the Skowronek sire line, doesn't he? Use the 'size and shape' quote as a guideline for that is all it is. (however-note that Cam was 15 hands barefoot and he had several over and unders as well so as a sire you know that he wasn't dominate for HEIGHT-but over all size was always moderate, tall or short.) |
Edited by - Egbert on 13 Nov 2006 9:20:55 PM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 9:15:40 PM
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Egbert, I am starting to "see" where you are coming from, for want of a better phrase!!!! I really can't wait to see what you are seeing, believe me I am trying!! I still seriously think that you are gifted, to be able to "take in" information and deliver a result!!! - Amazing!!!
Lyndilou, Zeyn must have been similar to Crimbo (in producing size) - all of Zeyn's foals were taller than him, regardless of the mare's height. Zeyn's tallest son to date is 16hh - Zeyn was 14.3hh, dam was 15hh. His smallest foal, a daughter, was 15.1hh - out of a 14.1 mare!!
I know that evolution and the best of care, feeds, grazing etc. effect the ultimate size of their siblings, but is this normal, or is there a certain horse in Zeyn's pedigree that bred height?
Incidentally, nobody believed that Zeyn was "only" 14.3, first impressions always believed him to be at least 15.1hh!!!
Carla, xx.
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 9:27:43 PM
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Have got to run but realize the definition of 'size' might need a little more discussion:
To me size is bone, height, balance with the latter creeping into the 'shape' definition...To me the outline of Charismma for example falls between both sire and dam with the sire having the greater influence in Charismma's pedigree.
Carla,
Thank you...Over the years I've been blessed with a wonderful library and some absolutely awesome mentors...the day I am gifted is when I can inbreed with consistently successful results best exhibited by the incredible Rosemary Archer. You could take any one of her straight Crabbets, put it into a rigorous American conditioning program and compete at international level and always finish in the top 5 if not win outright. If color were overlooked...do you think there are many mares out there that could beat Silvern Princess or for that matter a properly conditioned Silvern Idyll? Even at his quite advanced age? |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 10:23:56 PM
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Have to agree with you Egbert, Silvern Princess and especially Idyll are lovely horses. OH and I saw Idyll "accidentally" when we were on honeymoon, and I really mean "accidentally" - we were minding our own business, sight-seeing the castle, scenery and surroundings, we just went for a walk and saw a lovely grey Arabian stallion in a field - it was obviously Idyll (I enquiried later to make sure!!), lovely overall horse, balanced and beautiful. This was a complete bonus to "my" honeymoon, not planned, just happened!!! (LUCKY ME, OH not impressed but resigned to it!!!)
I'm now going to look-up and study 5th generations, AAAAGH, another late night (I really should know the pedigree "off by heart"!, but my brain is getting less accepting).
I feel that the more you learn, the more you need to know and I just love learning - thank you Egbert, all information is very appreciated and looking forward to discussing size, balance and colour?!? (please tell me when you are fed up with me).
Carla, xx. |
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Apollonaris
New Member
Denmark
3 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 04:43:22 AM
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Egbert, thanks a lot for taking the time to explain. I think I understand what you mean, and I'll have to agree that my boy is probably 'potentially' athletic (good term, by the way).
My head is spinning, trying to recognize traits and characteristics, so having a look at Anvil was a bit of an eye-opener. I would never have guessed that I should look in his direction for dominanct influence, simply because he appears so far back in the pedigree.
But you are right, the resemblance of body type is striking.
What still puzzles me is how to actually look at a pedigree and predict probable dominant traits to expect to appear in a horse. E.g. like you did with the Seglawi influence in Apollonaris' pedigree - on paper, I would have said it is totally overpowered by Kuhailan strains....
Well, I'll just have to keep following this thread, read as much as I can lay my hands on, and look at real horses.
Lisa |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 08:17:47 AM
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Wow Marie
What a blast from the past So many 'old' great ones so close up!!! Looking very much forward to hearing what you have to say, Egbert
Anne |
     
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 08:38:45 AM
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Yes hes def gelded.
Claire Doxey owns him, and yes he won the home produced Champs at bacs.
There is a photo of him at Bacs on www.unicorn-meadow.co.uk also one of Sheena too |
       
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TREASURES AT TEMPLEWOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 09:00:25 AM
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I have very fond memories of Hadeir, he was one of Zeyn's main rivals in their young in-hand showing days. I am sure they recognised each other when we met at shows. They seemed to take it in turns to beat each other, in a very polite way!!!
Carla, xx. |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 10:39:09 AM
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Hi Egbert,
I would be very grateful if you could have a look at my mare Taraneh breeding, I have tried to keep up with this thread but to be honest I could look at her pedigree for years and still come no where near your knowledge.
Thanks Anne
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/taraneh
Tail Female line to Rodania |
    
..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
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Tail Female Line....?
