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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 2:35:06 PM
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Hi Egbert,
It is difficult to imagine the modern Arabian, without the influence of the Blunt's and Lady W .... 
I would agree with you that judging purely from the horse's appearance the 30%+ Blunt blood is the dominant factor, though this of course is purely my own opinion and others are free to disagree
From the writings of Peter Upton we learn that, of the horses whose origins we do know, Abbas Pasha obtained the Saklawi's Zobeyni (1844) and Samha from Barraq Ibn Sbeyni of the Fedaan Anazeh, later Prince Ahmed Kemal Pasha got Jamil El Kebir El Achkar (the grandsire of Dahman, sire of Rabdan) also a Saklawi Jedran from the same family (i.e. that of Barraq Ibn Sbeyni). Since these three horses came from the same source the likelyhood is that they are not unrelated
From the Roala we know that Abbas Pasha got two Saklawi Jedrans in the stallion Sueyd and the mare Ghazieh. Some years later Ali Pasha Sherif acquired from the same source the stallion Saklawi Jidrani el Azrak el Khebir, better known these days as Saklawi I. Again it seems probable that these three were not unrelated.
Zobeyni bred to Ghazieh, produced the celebrated Wazir as well as the full sisters Horra and Yamemeh. Horra being the grandam of Bint Helwa and Yamemeh the dam of Mesaoud (here I'm going with Lady Anne's journal ..."Also we find our seglawi colt is a nephew of Wazir, as his dam Yamemeh was sister to Wazir")
Sueyd was the grandsire of Ibn Sherara, who sired *Ghazala out of Bint Helwa, mtDNA research confirms Lady Anne's assertion that Saklawi I's daughter Bint Yamama was also a daughter of Yamemeh and thus a half-sister of Mesaoud
Much later, Jamil El Kebir El Achkar's great great grandson Ibn Rabdan, sired Shahloul, Hamdan, Zamzam and Samira out of Bint Radia whose pedigree contains 5 crosses to Zobeyni and two each to Sueyd and Ghazieh. Hamdan went on to sire Anter who also traces traces his tail-female line to Bint Helwa.
The above is far from exhaustive, but I hope is sufficient to demonstrate that there is much to be gained from attempting to exploit the relationships between these saklawi foundation horses even after all these years.
One further point, there was one more white Saklawi Jedran stallion bred by the Fedaan, foaled in 1913 Fedaan was imported into England by H.V. Musgrave-Clark in 1926. Fedaan's daughter Somra II out of a descendant of the Wazir daughter Sobha, looked the epitome of one of Ali Pasha Sherif's saklawi greys though she was of course an Hamdami Simri.
So far as the "floodgates" are concerned I am not a great believer in the value of "labels" so far as Arabian horses are concerned! One thing however, is certain, when one crosses a "Straight Crabbet" with a "Straight Egyptian" were one then to calculate and add the Crabbet & Egyptian percentages of the resulting foal together, the total would be rather more than 100% In my own personal view it is the strength of the underlying common heritage that makes the crossing of apparently disparate bloodlines work so well
Mike
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 3:37:31 PM
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An afterthought to consider ..... The horse usually referred to as Saklawi II (though of course not a saklawi but a dahman  ) being a son of Saklawi I, appears so far as one can tell from old grainy photographs to have been very similar but superior to his direct descendent Ansata Ibn Halima (also a dahman) which rather begs the question, given sufficient time, does "progress" or "improvement" within the breed as a whole actually exist? Even though one can see evidence for it in individual breeding programmes
Mike |
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 3:51:05 PM
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I am about to try and upload the promised photos of my 2007 Bahrain x Crabbet foals. The grey mare is Danah Abyat (Lady Mirabelle x Harkem) and has a filly foal by Krayaan Dilmun. The Chestnut mare is Sabeeha Bint Krayaan (Lady Mirabelle x Krayaan Dilmun)her colt is by Krayaan Jesra (Kray Mohammedia x Sahara Rasheed). The lone foal photo is of Sabeehas colt foal. Jenny.
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 4:22:39 PM
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| Originally posted by Egbert
Hi Jenni,
Actually Goudah is loaded with Crabbet. If you put his name in to the all breeds pedigree site, you'll find he is probably more than 25% Crabbet. For example, the great Morafic, Goudah's great great grandfather contains the following Crabbet horses:Astraled, Selma, Narkise and Lady Anne Blunt's favorite, Kasida through his sire and Kazmeen and Bint Radia through his dam...now that is just the very top line of the 6th generation...Nazeer carries 25% Crabbet blood alone and you have I think roughly 5, maybe 6 crosses to Nazeer in Goudah's pedigree alone not to mention the other sources of Crabbet. Indeed, considering how well Nuhra has crossed with Crabbet, should expect it to be very good to outstanding with Egyptian.
As we have noted, Nuhra according to Dr. Gazder was gifted to the Earl of Athlone, brother in law to King George V in 1939-she was born in '36 the year that George the VI came to the throne when Edward the VIII abdicated, so think Nuhra was indeed a gift to the Earl of Athlone who was the Governor General of South Africa at the time and about to take a post in Canada. Lady May Abel Smith, the Earl of Athlone's daughter with her husband, Col. Sir Henry Abel-Smith, bred her 7 foals-all fillies (possibly another advantage) that have all bred on: Nurmahal, Taj Mahal, Nurmana, Rediaa, Nuhajjela, Rabiha and Alexa! So like the great Rodania, this was a wonderfully fecund, reliable, well put together mare who produced splendid foals that bred on brilliantly.
Hello Eqbert....Well you live and learn....! Goudah loaded with Crabbet that is great because it means that my "eye" is still working I am not very good on pedigrees, I know the Bahraini lines because I lived in Bahrain and worked with His Highnesses horses and I am learning about Crabbet but Egyptian pedigrees/lines are all new to me, although it does seem many came out of the same pot if you go back far enough. You see when Goudah was on his way I was told he came from "Saudi" and I got really excited, a Saudi stallion Wow! Then I was told he was Egyptian and it worried me as the only Egyptians I had seen were in the show ring and I hadn't ever really seen anything that I wanted to take home. However when Goudah came off the lorry in my yard I was "in love"  I turned to my husband and said "he looks likes a Crabbet horse...fantastic". So now you have confirmed what my eye told me and I am feeling very smug! I have some wonderful 'ingredients' to work with.
Jenny.
PS. May I pick your brains what can you tell me about a colt by the name of Mourad Sakr and your opinion please.
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2007 : 6:45:46 PM
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Originally posted by MikeHi Egbert, It is difficult to imagine the modern Arabian, without the influence of the Blunt's and Lady W .... So far as the "floodgates" are concerned I am not a great believer in the value of "labels" so far as Arabian horses are concerned! One thing however, is certain, when one crosses a "Straight Crabbet" with a "Straight Egyptian" were one then to calculate and add the Crabbet & Egyptian percentages of the resulting foal together, the total would be rather more than 100% In my own personal view it is the strength of the underlying common heritage that makes the crossing of apparently disparate bloodlines work so well Mike
I'm relieved I didn't offend you with the question about the meaning (or otherwise!) of 'SE'! Certainly didn't intend to and was quite worried when I saw Vygoda's post in case I had inadvertently caused offence!
If, as seems possible from this thread, the strain-character overrides the national character, maybe we should describe horses by their strain-name rather than as 'Russian', 'Egyptian', 'Crabbet', etc.?
Egbert if you saw a horse without knowing anything about its pedigree, would you be able to tell just by its appearance what strain it was?
Many of us think we can spot the different nationalities, but I believe Mike has demonstrated that this is not always easy, as horses which appear to fit one national 'stereotype' sometimes turn out to be another altogether! |
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Edited by - katefox1812 on 06 Jul 2007 6:47:38 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 12:17:35 PM
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Originally posted by EeyoreHi Egbert and other experts This is a fascinating thread, I am trying to find time to read it all! I was wondering if you could tell me a bit about my horses pedigrees please? This is my mare, Alqua http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/alquaI love my mare so much, she is wonderful and was my first arab. I did like the idea of having a foal from her but decided to buy another grown up instead and got Marim!  This is my gelding, Marim http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marimI'd be really grateful for anything that you can tell me.
Alqua is at least 3/4 Egyptian with the remaining 1/4 a combination of Crabbet, Davenport and Babson Egyptian blood...the very bottom 1/8 of the pedigree goes back to the breeding program of one our leading doctors who bred black Arabians utilizing Crabbet/Babson bloodlines.
Her sire line is Nazeer, dam line to Rodania via the Skowronek daughter *Raida. You have a rather Kuhailan looking mare with the strength, health and fecundity that is typical of the Rodanias...But she must be rather well put together, and beautiful as well as there is an abundance of beauty in the pedigree. This mare knows you and cares about you but aloof with other humans and strangers. She is a little old to breed now which is a shame as she should produce very well and bred to the right stallion, you could probably look forward to stunning blacks.
Your gelding Marim must be very lovely. His sire line goes back to Sameh and on to Rabdan. Sameh tended to have that element that one sees so frequently with Hamdani Simris...Smooth elegance, wonderful riding horses and the potential for speed. Marim's dam line goes back to the venerable Bint Helwa, a Seglawi Jedran...the Abbas Pasha mare known best for incredible courage, as well as beauty and reliability under saddle. This is the kind of horse that if you bond...will do anything you ask and never question you. Marim's great grandsire was considered by many to be one of the most beautiful straight Egyptians ever to grace this planet....Sadly he died young-only having one or two foal crops. Judging by the few youngsters he had, he must have been truly sensational. Would think your Marim is very beautiful. What color is he? |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2007 : 12:57:21 PM
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As a footnote, Marim's damline to BintHelwa via Zamzam no longer exists in Egypt but is producing well in both the USA and also in Europe an example of which can be seen below:-
Shahil
And of course his pedigree:- http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/shahil2
Mike |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 2:53:46 PM
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Perhaps I should clarify, I don't have a problem with "labels" per se, they are a useful tool in orientating oneself with the history and background in a horses breeding
What I do have a problem with is when they are misused to re-enforce prejudice, misconception and ignorance For example, some years ago I spent an afternoon in the company of someone who expressed very strong opinions (and with total conviction) on what lines they liked (golden-cross & Ali Jamaal) and what they loathed, hated, couldn't stand the site of etc(anything Polish). During the course of the afternoon, during which many horses of wildly differing bloodlines were seen, every single horse that this person expressed admiration for was Polish, whilst every single horse of this persons "preferred" breeding was dismissed out of hand and ignored. Even at the end of the day, having been confronted by the truth, this person was still adamant that Polish horses were uniformly awful and to be avoided at all costs! This by the way is not an isolated case! Go figure ......
My point being that to pre-judge horses purely on the basis of the attached "label" whilst studiously ignoring every other factor, is complete lunacy One must keep an open mind at all times, eulogising or condemning horses solely on the basis of labels just won't wash!!! Sadly no time or effort at all goes into educating newcomers to the breed, so when confronted by "labels" and "groups" (usually on day one!) there is too much to take in, and so they go with what their more experienced friends believe to be the case These friends of course were once newcomers themselves and acquired their "understanding" in exactly the same manner!
What this means is that somewhere along the road, one has to unlearn what one was led to believe what was "gospel" when one started out Or one can continue wearing those attractive monochrome glasses The choice is yours
Regarding spotting a horses strain from its appearance, what one can normally spot is the strain providing the dominant influence, which is usually the tail-female one, but of course for any individual horse (depending on its breeding) this needn't be the case. Below is a photo of one of only three stallions to win US National titles both in-hand and under saddle Not everyone's idea of what a kuhailan should look like though
Asadd
Mike
PS as yet anothre footnote, it would be interesting I think to see what would happen if one crossed the SE version of the Bint Helwa damline (as seen in Shahil above) with the male line from Naziri I seriously doubt though if anyone could put aside their label prejudices for long enough to try it! |
Edited by - Mike on 08 Jul 2007 2:59:42 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2007 : 10:45:16 PM
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Mike,
Thoroughly agree with your point. There are those in each of the communities, Polish, Egyptian, Spanish, et. al., that are so focused that it is nearly impossible to have a rational conversation with them.
Would love to see your idea happen...Think the result could be truly awesome. Have you seen many of the Shahil foals?
In re *Asadd...Do think the pedigree is fully reflected in him. Very masculine as one would expect with the Rodania tail female but peacocky as one would expect with the more Seglawi lines...and it shows up strongly in the 4th generation wherein the Seglawi lines are most pronounced and fully dominate in terms of source horses, don't you think?
*Asadd was way misused/underused in the US when Tom Chauncey brought him to Arizona where American, Russian and Polish were more commonly seen. I bred and owned a daughter and she was a remarkable horse...Not the brightest light on the block but reliable, a phenomenally powerful and elastic ride and unquestionably Arabian... Once we were out riding and as we were coming home-I was riding bareback-the neighbor's dog came running out barking at us and she side-stepped and I slipped off, knocking the wind out of me. She was wonderful...absolutely froze while I climbed and pulled myself up her front leg...She didn't like the dog but by golly she wasn't going to leave me! An amazing mare. |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 11:46:53 PM
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Hi Egbert,
Despite being a great horse, and having a wonderful pedigree, Shahil doesn't seem to have been used much,though what I have seen by him I really liked. Unlike his sire the Ansata blood doesn't dominate and this combination of Ansata + Ibn Galal + a saklawi damline all finely balanced together is one that breeders have really struggled to come to grips with in how to breed on from it to the next generation. To the point perhaps where they have ceased to try. Ibn Galal was a horse of very extreme type (much more so than his photo's suggest) it is sad to note that he never managed to produce a son who sired as well as his daughters produced. In fact possibly his best son (having sired just a few foals) stood unused in Northern Germany for sixteen years
Regarding Asadd, yes certainly in the 4th generation the saklawi is fully dominant and you can certainly see this in the horse himself despite being decidedly masculine in appearance. It is a great pity that he wasn't made more use of, not only was he in the wrong place (though I think he would have made a potentially interesting outcross for non-Egyptian mares) being K rodan, he was definitely the "wrong" strain to be considered seriously by the vast majority of the notoriously narrow minded and fashion conscious SE breeders of the time. It is a sad fact of SE breeding in the west, that great horses get overlooked whilst lesser ones get over-used
Mike |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 08:37:12 AM
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Mike wrote, "It is a sad fact of SE breeding in the west, that great horses get overlooked whilst lesser ones get over-used."
Absolutely the truth about all lines and I don't know how one escapes the cult of the champion...Too many great horses are underutilized. I'll never forget some of the Theobold stallions-absolutely first class fabulous...and the Moyne stallion, Dhruv-can never see enough of his offspring...but seems rarely used-one who should have been repeatedly bred to Carmargue daughters. Is he still alive?
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Edited by - Egbert on 10 Jul 2007 08:38:53 AM |
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 5:44:30 PM
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Jenny Lees
Have to tell you that your horses look super and the colt appears to be out of this world! Well done you! When you have time could you record their pedigrees on the All Breed site?
Eqbert...that colt is "out of this world" literally as he seemingly spends most of his day in orbit, fly bucking, racing, prancing I have never had such a show off in my fields! Don't think he is endurance material even though his sire is our 100 miler horse Krayaan Jesra. We spend time hanging over the fence watching the colts antics and saying to each other..."that one is yours to ride" as he does three fly bucks and cat leaps in succession! He is sweet and brave too, comes straight from his mothers side to greet anyone who comes into the field. I think he is a "one off" but one of what?????? we ask ourselves when he pirouettes in front of us whilst the other three foals peek out from behind their mothers. Will do pedigrees when I get a few minutes. Kind regards, Jenny.
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 9:23:43 PM
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Thanks for your feedback Egbert
she must be rather well put together, and beautiful as well as there is an abundance of beauty in the pedigree. This mare knows you and cares about you but aloof with other humans and strangers. She is a little old to breed now which is a shame as she should produce very well and bred to the right stallion, you could probably look forward to stunning blacks.
The part about her knowing me and loving me but being aloof with others is so true, how amazing that you would know that! She is such a character, so loyal to me but so not interested in most people I certainly think that she is beautiful My dream horse was always a black and I did think about having a foal from her but decided to leave breeding to the experts. This is Alqua in her winter woollies
And this summer
I have only had Marim for a month so we are still getting to know each other.
Smooth elegance, wonderful riding horses and the potential for speed.
I bought him because I wanted a lovely riding horse. He still has some growing into himself to do I think, he is all legs and kneck and incredibly flexible. He is always scratching his ears with his back hooves to prove just how flexible!
This is him
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Heléna
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 07:19:15 AM
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| Wow I love your bay mare Eeyore - she's very nice! |
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cassy
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3348 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 09:03:45 AM
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Egbert please can you go on the fao thread, bia has kindly looked up mare/foal lines but wanteded if you could give me and Kate TOBAGO owner a more in depth look into the breeding line
Many thanks |
Angie
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Eeyore
Gold Member
1181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 09:07:18 AM
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| Aw thanks Kate, she is definitely guilty of giving me arabitis! |
Heléna
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
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Sarahw
Gold Member
England
746 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 1:58:27 PM
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Previously posted by Egbert
"I've a very soft spot for Mareschal. He is one of the great horses with legends of the breed making up his pedigree. Brilliant mover, superb temperament, nearly flawless conformation, and a typical Kuhailan Rodania with tail female arriving via the Naziri daughter, Risira...through Silver Ripple...What is there not to simply be ecstatic about in this pedigree? Just a phenomenal stallion.
The baby with Shamunah will be a Kuhailan with a very Seglawi influence. If a gray, it will be out of this world exotic. If Chestnut or Bay...It will be a wonderful breeding animal and very lovely but quite Kuhailan looking rather than taking on the elegance of the grays in this line. Obviously as her pedigree is every bit as legendary as Mareschal's would expect the baby to be of outstanding quality and slightly more full of herself and very intelligent. When do we see the baby????The Wunderkind????""
Dear Egbert - This is the resulting colt foal !
He is three weeks old here ! |
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Edited by - Sarahw on 11 Jul 2007 2:00:10 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 08:25:09 AM
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Sarahw! He is wonderful and certainly exhibits the Seglawi influence, doesn't he? Am thrilled with the evident quality he exhibits! Well done Mareschal! Thank you so very much for posting the photos! Would love to see more of him at 6 weeks of age?
Marie,
Thank you! Wonderful news to learn that Dhruv is still covering! What a wonderful stallion!
Jenny, That colt sounds like he is going to be a tremendous athlete! Would love to see new picts of him from time to time...especially at 6 weeks of age, as with Sarah's... The reason is that a vet once told me, and it seems to have worked most of the time....The way they look at 6 weeks often is predictive of balance at maturity.
Angie,
Will go look!
Helena,
Love your girl and would hope you might try for a foal at some point as your girl is very special. You would of course want to closely supervise it but suspect the result would be very nice. Your boy is just going to be steadily more wonderful.
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Jenny Lees
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2007 : 06:42:25 AM
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| Thank you, Jenny! Can't wait. Geez, how awful to have all that rain! Better bring my umbrella, galoshes, raincoat (just got a new one that is bright yellow with black pokadots...great for waiving at horses to take an exciting picture)....and raft? Hope you get some decent weather soon! |
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Bushburn_Aramist
Bronze Member
England
101 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 3:01:52 PM
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hi would anybody know anything about my mares breeding as i would find it interesting to know about her dam and sire I haven't had arabs for long and don't know a lot about the pedigree's
her name is Eliqa her sire is Ralvon Elijah and her dam is Bariqa
also if anyone got any pics i would be very grateful
Thankou
here is a pic of one of her foals all grown up (he is part bred and it's me riding)
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2007 : 6:23:40 PM
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Hi Natalie,
Your mare's sire line is to Nazeer via *Talal - renowned son of Nazeer who was raced for a number of years and his legs were as steel-never so much as a wind puff. Outstanding sire known for transmitting excellent conformation-possibly the best of the Nazeer sons:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/talal2
Here is Ralvon Elijah
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ralvon+elijah
You can click on the photos at the top of the pedigrees...
Ralvon Elijah, the sire of your mare was a tremendous winner throughout the UK and in the US at Regional level. Don't think he was ever shown to National level in the US but was British National Champion. He was one of those stallions that was exotic, flamboyant and incredibly athletic-a brilliant mover.
Your mare's dam line traces to Rodania, Kuhailan Ajuz of Ibn Rodan in strain, aka Kuhailan Rodania, via arguably one of the finest, strongest families, that of Razina whose sons and daughters are legends of the breed: Radi, Rasana, Nurschida (to which your mare traces), Raktha, Riffal, Shamnar to name a few! Eliqa's dam, Bariqa, was bred by Mr. Michael Pitt-Rivers who had, arguably the finest band of broodmares in the UK...All in all, you don't get many better bred than your girl. She is one you can breed to nearly anything and have a wonderful result. Are you breeding her again? |
Edited by - Egbert on 17 Jul 2007 6:44:54 PM |
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Bushburn_Aramist
Bronze Member
England
101 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2007 : 08:45:16 AM
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I have sent her back to my horses sire this year (Aimbry Chester) and would love to put her in foal with an arab next time but i wouldn't have a clue who i would put her to?
Thanks for the info i really appreciate it |
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Tail Female Line....?
