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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 08:36:57 AM
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Hi Egbert, thankyou for your message and very kind comments on Narishka.
Indian Idyll? He was chosen for a number of reasons, some to do with him and some to do with other issues. For himself, he was chosen because of his great movement, temperament, breadth between the eyes and generally somewhat reachier structure than the mare. Also Narishka's dam produced an absolutely beautiful filly by him - she unfortunately had to be put down as a 2 year old. Narishka's own stillborn bay colt was by Indian Idyll.
The non-horse related reasons related to the fact that Indian Idyll resides with Rosemary and Liz Archer on a small but very experienced set up. It is an exceptionally safe pair of hands, especially now that breeding from the mare has become more problematical.
I did try to use Shabakka (Silver Flame /Mona by Naseel) first but we were one year too late - he got his last mares in foal the year before Narishka went to him.
Grecian Idyll is very beautiful and his first few foals are showing a lot of promise. He and Indian Idyll are half brothers of course with different damlines with "Zorba" (Grecian Idyll) being the more refined but "Fred" (Indian Idyll) being the proven racehorse with more extreme style and movement. Funnily enough I opted for "Fred" precisely because I felt there was more positive contrast with my mare, despite the same tail female, than with "Zorba".
I had always assumed I would get to breed several foals from my mare (hopefully that might still happen) and I would get some chance to look at later choices in the light of what she actually tends to produce. One stillborn foal does not add huge amounts of data to the picture - he was bay so I know the mare has the capacity to pass on that side of her breeding at least some of the time and he did have a very fine head that was very like his mother's as a baby but perhaps just a shade longer. But he never got to stand up so judging the rest is almost impossible.
Embryo transfer is allowed over here now. The problem for someone like me who is trying to breed 100% Crabbet is that Crabbet breeders are not in the habit of offering AI. There is the expense too!
A Hamdani Simri colt I am interested in using on Narishka, once he is old enough and if we can get the mare producing, is the Mattocks' colt Spirit of Dreams (Grecian Idyll /Siala - Shiffal /Sa'lilah by Silver Flame), the mare line going back to Silver Gilt via Sunset. I am not sure if he is on allbreedpedigree - I'll have to check. Edited addition: yes, he is at www.allbreedpedigree.com/spiritofdreams
Thank you for your interest and good wishes. Alexia |
Edited by - Athena on 22 Jun 2007 12:23:59 PM |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 09:28:09 AM
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Wow Alexia the photo of your mare is stunningly like my two beloved boys by Fanto - the family look is amazing! You may remember I gave you a copy of Nafranta as a young mare at Briery Close that I took years ago. Nafranta was sister to Fanto of course and my two boys (one sadly no longer with us) are/were both by Fanto. The faces have the same lovely expression regardless of their dam lines so the Manto/Nafisa 'marriage' must be very enduring.
The remaining boy, Fantastic Silver (Tas) is on loan as companion to an elderly Crabbet mare and enjoying the life of Riley. His brother Feiranto was a wonderful boy, my best friend for 23 years - we did everything together!
What a fantastic family! |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 12:17:39 PM
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Hi again Carolyn, I thought you and others might find the following photo of interest. It is Mrs Nicholson in Ireland with her group of Naseel daughters and grandaughters.
The mares, left to right, are as follows:
Zirree El Wada (Naseel /Rose du Sable by Jaleel), Seglawieh Jedran Ibn Sudan to Ghazieh Or.Ar.
Wadiha (Naseel /Wardi by Irex), Kehaileh Rodanieh to Rodania Or.Ar.
Zuhair (Rasham /Zirree El Wada by Naseel), Seglawieh Jedran Ibn Sudan to Ghazieh Or.Ar.
Nafisa (Naseel /Raxina by Raktha), Kehaileh Dajanieh to Dajania Or.Ar.
Zilati (Silver Vanity /Zirree El Wada by Naseel), Seglawieh Jedran Ibn Sudan to Ghazieh Or.Ar.
Incidentally, Mrs Nicholson obviously believed in linebreeding to Naseem - the three Naseel daughters were all out of Naseem granddaughters.
Hope you all find this interesting. Alexia |
Edited by - Athena on 22 Jun 2007 12:27:07 PM |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 2:06:55 PM
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Alexia, what a wonderful photo of those important mares. I also saw Nafisa at Briery Close - completely covered in freckles and such a dear mare. Nafisa means 'precious' and precious she surely was. Feiranto (Franny) didn't have perfect confirmation but he was game for anything and we travelled hundreds and hundreds of miles together - he raced an Arab racehorse on one of our long distance rides and we called it a dead heat! He would never let any other horse in front of him and never ran out of energy - wonderful boy and such a 'talker' always chuntering, neighing, whickering to me. I thought he was Seglawi so it's interesting to see Nafisa being Kehailan.
Tas is a different character - but definitely a character and a very sweet boy. His potential has never been reached but he is adored where he is and was happy with me. He wasn't happy where I got him from and was much misunderstood there. It was Dawn who asked me to 'rescue' him. He loves flying around with tail like a banner!
I'm hopeless at posting pictures but I could email a couple to you to post if youi give me your email address. He is much bigger than Franny who was barely 14.3 while Tas is a good 15.1 or 2 and has better confirmation.
We must never forget these wonderful families who are still the backbone of modern breeding - the Naseel, Naseem and Silver Vanity lines are so important even today. |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 2:54:37 PM
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As you already know, Alexia-i think Narishka is just wonderfully beautiful-timeless classic.
Be great to see more piccies of her.
I have my fingers and toes xcd that she breeds you many beautiful foals, as you already mentioned she is a rare mare for 100%crabbet carrying Sengoran too.
Did you even manage to get any luck with (i think his name is) Golden Khaymoun? |
pagey |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 3:15:59 PM
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My pleasure Alexia I always remember the first picture i saw of her and thought wow-look at her, in the crabbet convention catalouge!
What a shame-and waste in regards to Golden Khayyam, he is gorjus and happens to be my fave colour!
I have still yet to ring Rose and arrange to meet her and her horses, Daphne kindly called her for me, and Rose said it would be a pleasure to show them to me, which i am really looking forward to. |
pagey |
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Treasure
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2007 : 5:17:34 PM
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Alexia I have emailed a couple of photos of Tas to you - typically with a dirty face!  Happy for them to be posted to join the family album!  |
Carolyn
Johaara Arabians |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2007 : 10:17:56 PM
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Alexia,
How were the foals? Have you seen Beeston Mukhtar? He looks to be potentially hugely important-on paper. To have any horse that is double Silver Shadow, with so many legends throughout the pedigree is just boggling.
How about Klinta Sultan? Did he inherit the Mona eyes?(that would be a nice plus!) I've seen a couple of photos and he looks very Skowronek...But the pedigree database must be incorrect because I am not finding Silver Bell.... |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 12:56:24 AM
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| Originally posted by Egbert
Alexia,
How were the foals? Have you seen Beeston Mukhtar? He looks to be potentially hugely important-on paper. To have any horse that is double Silver Shadow, with so many legends throughout the pedigree is just boggling.
How about Klinta Sultan? Did he inherit the Mona eyes?(that would be a nice plus!) I've seen a couple of photos and he looks very Skowronek...But the pedigree database must be incorrect because I am not finding Silver Bell....
Hi Egbert, if you are using Datasource, it has this habit of defaulting to GSB names for UK Arabs over the period of time that many were double registered with the GSB and AHSB. Usually, however, the horse is generally known by its AHSB name. Silver Bell was registered in the GSB as Chrysilla (Raktha /Silver Crystal) but is known today always as Silver Bell. Several of the mares of that family had name changes and alternative names in GSB and AHSB just to make the pedigree research more interesting.
So Mona's dam Indian Chime was a bay mare by Indian Gold and out of Silver Bell - Raktha /Silver Crystal - Rangoon /Somara. Hope that helps.
Klinta Sultan has a nice head and eye although not quite as extreme as Shabakka or his ill-fated full brother Klinta Sharif. There are two full sisters too and the younger one, Klinta Saroya, has an exceptionally lovely head and eye. Sultan still has some maturing to do and does seem to me to show quite a lot of Skowronek blended with a definite hint of that Indian King outline. A very elegant little horse and it will be interesting to see how he matures and what he is capable of breeding.
The only one of the Klinta Bashir progeny I have seen in the flesh is the chestnut filly Klinta Salma. She is tall, very smooth with excellent quarter, neat, well finished head and a definite look of something like Rissam about her. She is not specifically like her sire or dam but a very nice horse.
I have only seen photos of the others. Mukhtar looked very classically proportioned in the couple of foal snaps I've seen but then Moongleam is an old fashioned and pretty mare herself. Manon's Crabbet/Old English filly Nefertiti Bint Nayifah looked a very extreme Naseel type grey in the foal pics I was sent but I have not seen anything of her since - but then she does carry 3 close lines to Naseel.
I will see if I can find the photos I do have. I took some of Klinta Sultan myself as a foal and he won his class at the Crabbet Show in England last year - so I do have other photos of him on file. Alexia |
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Barabia
Gold Member
Sweden
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 08:58:27 AM
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Oh boy,
Thanks Bia and Alexia!
To add to the confusion in the US Data Source and in the All Breeds sites, her name is spelled, CHRISSILLA! AND to add insult to injury, in the datasource Shabbaka's name is spelled Shabakka; in the All Breeds it is spelled Shabbaka...Am not sure which of these are correct so will go check Gazder....
Not only is there no Chrissilla but there is no Shabakka/shabbaka but there is a Shabaka born in 1894...Oh well.... Who actually bred Chrissilla? Burton? With her going soon thereafter to Crabbet and Lady W changing the name? |
Edited by - Egbert on 24 Jun 2007 09:13:40 AM |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 09:23:17 AM
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I went to visit Klinta Sultan earlier this year when I was last in England, and agree he needs to do some maturing. You can see now that he is extremely well balanced, has a good arch of neck and topline and legs, carries his tail, and he is a superb flowing and elevated mover.
It is not good news about Klinta Bashir and just hope he doesn't become a 'lost horse' plus the fact he has so few foals on the ground after several seasons at stud. Personally, I opted not to send a mare to him as covering is not done in hand, and I was not prepared to send a mare to be turned out in a herd of horses that she wouldn't know, and with the extra stressful addition for her of a stallion in the herd - the situation is too wild and free for one of my precious mares to be sent to him, but that's just me  . I did try to lease him by the way, the answer was no but that's ok.
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 09:51:43 AM
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It would be terrific if they would reconsider, especially as you are so gifted in straightening out the kinks of various equine situations! He is unique on the one hand to straight Crabbets with the Mahruss sire line-double Naxina through dear Nefeuret...Small but exquisite.
Many years ago I ran the pedigrees and progeny of the Skowronek sons. 'Lo and behold, many didn't really begin breeding with any consistency until over 10 years of age.....Could *Raffles's issues not been unique? Remember it was thought that he was sterile...Probably what he needed was the opportunity to be 'cleaned' out regularly. Am wondering if this wasn't the problem with any number of the closely related Skowronks.... |
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Tomos
Gold Member
Wales
940 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 2:51:30 PM
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Dear Egbert
This thread is so fascinating, haven't looked for a few days and suddenly there are all these beautiful Crabbet horses.
You did a lovely assessment of my mares Cacharel, Augusta and Alize Bint Azeme, way back on page 33. I was greedy and asked if you could look at two more for me, but you were getting so many requests I think they got lost, so here is my request again.
The first is Augustas daughter April Fairy, Wermut/Augusta, April Fairy came as a foal at foot with Augusta, this is not breeding I am familiar with as we concentrate on predominantly Crabbet/OE lines. I have been told that Warmia, Wermuts dam was very highly regarded in Poland . My only previous contact with high % Polish lines was our old mare Sky Galaxy, Gerwazy/Sapphire Sky.
I recently advertised April Fairy for sale on AL as I felt she didn't fit into our breeding plans, but when it came down to it, I like her too much, so have decided to keep her.
I will probably put her in foal next year, preferably I would like to use a stallion to increase her Crabbet/OE blood, but I am not sure,
what would you suggest ?
The second mare is Bint Amazima, my all time favourite horse, she owned me for over 20 years, I lost her two years ago to ethmoid haematoma at 24, and still miss her dreadfully, she had 5 foals and only produced colts, she was a wonderfully light and responsive ride, she was just over 14hh, but all 5 offspring have gone well over 15hh, she was the most gentle of horses and I wonder if there is anything in her pedigree that would lead you to expect this, any thoughts appreciated, (we have 2 of her sons, both stallions who both have delightful temperaments).
Sorry to have gone on a bit,
Look forward to you reply
Mandy
The links to the mares are www.allbreedpedigree.com/april+fairy
and www.allbreedpedigree.com/bint+amazima
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"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind" Gandhi
www.hispanoarabeswales.co.uk
www.thewelshcrabbetshow.org.uk |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 4:44:03 PM
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Hi Egbert, Bia & Jane, the Chrissilla spelling was my mistake - just being slapdash with a name version I do not ususally use I'm afraid! There was a Chrysilla but she was by El Shaklan and dam of El Saleem.
Gazder certainly seems to use AHSB names. I do not know but have always assumed that this was because the AHS is the ongoing registering authority for Arabians in the UK and all show entries etc would have had to use AHS registered details even before the demise of the GSB oriental section.
Shabakka 1974 is as spelt here in the AHS studbooks. There was also a Shabako, one of the last stallions bred at the Courthouse Stud, who was used at Biddesden and leaves a few stock there as well as a Crabbet/Old English daughter at Rosemary and Liz Archer's Worth stud. Seems to be a name destined to be given to stallions that get little or no opportunity at stud!
As for Bashir's lack of foals, I gather it was a question of an inexperienced stallion being turned out with mares and being somewhat "shy" and unassertive about getting the job done rather than covering resulting in no foals. He certainly got the mares he covered in Ireland (in hand) in foal no problem although the numbers concerned do not prove anything in particular. Nonetheless I do not think there is any specific reason to assume a fertility issue.
Here is Manon's Bashir daughter Nefertiti Bint Nayifah at just a few days old.
Nefertiti Bint Nayifah, grey filly (Klinta Bashir /Nayifah by Golden Samurai)
And a few extra:
  
Naseel body shot ...... Naseel head shot...... Crabbet mare Ismala by Nefeuret.
Oh and Bethan, been meaning to say that I love almost all the Mareschal progeny I have seen. He is an incredibly consistent sire. Did you know he was one of the stallions with the most progeny at the UK Crabbet Conventinon of 2002? He did not have his own group simply becuase he is a wonderfully blendable horse who does not completely swamp the dam - so he had several progeny in different groups - Rissla types and Silver types. You have a beautifully bred horse.
Alexia |
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Sarahw
Gold Member
England
746 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 6:52:08 PM
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| Mareschal also out crosses brilliantly - I will try to post some part bred pictures. |
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Sarahw
Gold Member
England
746 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2007 : 7:49:00 PM
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These are some of his Part bred babies
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Edited by - Sarahw on 24 Jun 2007 7:49:52 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2007 : 01:47:11 AM
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Originally posted by TomosDear Egbert This thread is so fascinating, haven't looked for a few days and suddenly there are all these beautiful Crabbet horses. You did a lovely assessment of my mares Cacharel, Augusta and Alize Bint Azeme, way back on page 33. I was greedy and asked if you could look at two more for me, but you were getting so many requests I think they got lost, so here is my request again. The first is Augustas daughter April Fairy, Wermut/Augusta, April Fairy came as a foal at foot with Augusta, this is not breeding I am familiar with as we concentrate on predominantly Crabbet/OE lines. I have been told that Warmia, Wermuts dam was very highly regarded in Poland . My only previous contact with high % Polish lines was our old mare Sky Galaxy, Gerwazy/Sapphire Sky. I recently advertised April Fairy for sale on AL as I felt she didn't fit into our breeding plans, but when it came down to it, I like her too much, so have decided to keep her. I will probably put her in foal next year, preferably I would like to use a stallion to increase her Crabbet/OE blood, but I am not sure, what would you suggest ? The second mare is Bint Amazima, my all time favourite horse, she owned me for over 20 years, I lost her two years ago to ethmoid haematoma at 24, and still miss her dreadfully, she had 5 foals and only produced colts, she was a wonderfully light and responsive ride, she was just over 14hh, but all 5 offspring have gone well over 15hh, she was the most gentle of horses and I wonder if there is anything in her pedigree that would lead you to expect this, any thoughts appreciated, (we have 2 of her sons, both stallions who both have delightful temperaments). Sorry to have gone on a bit, Look forward to you reply Mandy The links to the mares are www.allbreedpedigree.com/april+fairyand www.allbreedpedigree.com/bint+amazima
Dear Mandy,
Thank you! It has certainly proven to be tremendous fun and the Crabbets really define reliablility and worldwide - they are way underappreciated... Yet, statistically, there is nothing that can come close to beating the Crabbet/Blunt dam lines which is a measure of just how hard Lady Anne worked to ensure the quality of each and every mare retained in the herd. The greatest, the most successful, the LEADING dam line is Rodania and if I could have only one mare in the world...her dam line would be to Rodania via Risira! And that is exactly what you have in April Fairy. In addition her sire traces to Abu Afas via Comet. Comet has been considered for years one of the premier if not premier broodmare sires and his sireline sons, grandsons, et. al., also are regarded very very highly...But the icing with April Fairy's sire *Wermut is that the dam line going to Kalina, an Ibrahim daughter, virtually ensures the beautiful quality of the offspring for generations....It is that strong. So together, with the finest of Polish blood and Augusta's superb damline- with Augusta's sire Rheingolde whose blood has always proven to be excellent, you have a mare of great beauty, refinement, tremendous action that will not fully mature til she is 9 years old(Polish blood takes forever to mature) or so and then she will look national champion quality-particularly if you keep her well conditioned, ridden and exercised regularly. If you are breeding for beauty and great disposition...would look for a *Carmargue son with either a Menahghy or Seglawi dam line...Carmargue Too, Charissmma (SP?) for her.
Am so sorry for your loss of Bint Amazima. Her sire line is to Rabdan, dam line to Rodania via Rangha, by *Berk. Over the years, a dam line with Berk covering one of the mares on the dam line usually ensures a sweet temperment and truly phenomenal action. But the extremely sweet and kind temperament most likely comes via Fejr of which there are multiples in thepedigree. Accordong to Cecil Covey
Fejr conferred her wonderful temperament as far away as 5-6 generations! Well if it is a dominant gene and in multiples, it is really no wonder the Amazima offspring are so delightfully dear.
Thank you Alexia. Very impressive!
Sara! Gorgeous aren't they! Well done! Mareschal is just a chip off the old block-super consistent and superb sire.
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Edited by - Egbert on 25 Jun 2007 01:54:40 AM |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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Tail Female Line....?
