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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 10:57:20 AM
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Rosy,
It should be a nice cross but if you are breeding for black, you may not have any luck. Bay possibly. But that said you have a wonderfully well bred mare in Shardonnay-Nazeer sire line; dam line Kuhailan Jellaby which in reality traces to the same original dam as Bint Helwa's, a Seglawi. So what you have is probably one whose ancestors trace to an acquired mare (purchased, theft, won in battle...or whatever) who was bred by the Jellaby's over the millenia and who has developed a look that is similar to her original ancestors who became Seglawis with the distinction that the Jellabies have a peaky croup but make up for it with a front end that is quite lovely.
Ali Baba is Dahman and will have the strength, smoothness, character that will enhance those traits that make Shardonnay so special while smoothing her croup and giving her a more down to earth rock solid temperament. I believe both horses are straight Egyptian and think you have made a very interesting selection. |
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rosyw
Platinum Member
England
3756 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 11:26:20 AM
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Thanks Egbert!
No I'm not breeding for black, Ali Baba is such a lovely horse with an exceptional temperament, I had the very great pleasure of 'meeting' him when he was bought by his current owner, I'm hoping he will be standing next year but am going to re-acquaint myself with him in the very near future - can't wait |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 11:26:36 AM
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| Originally posted by Alexia
Hi Egbert, I have enjoyed many of these posts although I have to admit to skimming every so often due to lack of time so I cannot be certain I have not missed a lot too.
I was curious to know how far you view the tail female line as remaining significant without re-inforcement over the generations. While it seems to me that some families do have traits that remain evident over many generations, I also think that our obsession with tail female and male lines sometimes obscures the very important lines that exist in the middle of pedigrees just because they failed to leave a tail female or male line of descent.
Having said all that my own 100% Crabbet mare traces to Dajania Or.Ar. in the tail female and is classic Crabbet "N" line, or at least classic Skowronek x "N" line, but then she does have multiple lines to Naseem and Naxina as well as other combinations of Skowonek and "N" lines in addition to her tail female.
Then again she has important lines in the middle of her pedigree which are also evident in specific traits that are not owed predominantly to her tail female or her tail male line to Mesaoud /Zobeyni Or.Ar. Queen of Sheba Or.Ar. and Azrek Or.Ar. are lines frequently underestimated because Azrek does not survive in tail male line at all and the Queen of Sheba tail female is extremely rare.
Now this was meant to be a question and meant to be short! I have got launched - this is why I do not trust myself to post very often!! Alexia
Interesting question Alexia. In re strength of the tail female...This will sound like a cop out but it is virtually impossible to tell with a mare like Rodania or Dajania because they have been so universally used bred and re-bred together, whilst a mare like Wild Thyme who was not used all that much and seems to show up fairly rarely and often not repeated so she is a bit more predictable in that...She is typically Kuhailan and her foals often tend to be kind of ordinary...but every 5th foal or so is absolutely out of this world! This was a line that was athletic, pleasant but usually nothing to write home about until that special result happens. Typically: Arnett Perlane here in the States...Arguably as beautiful if not more so than even the great Carmargue! But a failure as a breeding stallion as his youngsters don't show up and he didn't seem to breed on. (It was rumored and it certain would explain his failure in the breeding shed-that he was given steroids to make him more masculine with more snort and blow...In those days not uncommon).
With just about any of the Blunt imported dam lines-they have been HUGELY successful. I think it was because they shopped for the best and Lady Anne was assiduous in ascertaining their bonafides - not satisfied til she had three INDEPENDENT verifications. I think it is proven over and over in that the Crabbet mares are so successful comparatively even when virtually alone in the pedigree, ex: Carmargue...and the look is unquestionaby that of the Bint Helwa dam lines.
The horses in the middle of the pedigree are very important but think they contribute more to making the pedigree result look more like spare parts than harmonious or vice versa...EXCEPT when dealing with the Polish lines...They can look horrific, ugly, plain, not worth anyone's time ....and then they turn 6-7 years old....and oh my heavens....You'd think they switched horses! They can suddenly become very beautiful...ugly ducklings to genuine swans!
By the way there are two significant traits that I see regularly in the Dajanias....Colts nearly always better than full sisters and the babies always have boxy muzzles-not as bad as some of the Spanish but definitely something you might want to watch.
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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rosyw
Platinum Member
England
3756 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 1:54:14 PM
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Hi Egbert
GC Ali Baba - taken a few years ago, as you said, SE and also Al Khamsa - Sheikh Obeyd Foundation
Going to try to get some decent photos of Sharnie over the weekend, lost masses of them when my last PC died |
Edited by - rosyw on 15 Jun 2007 2:17:55 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2007 : 09:22:33 AM
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Hi Rosy W,
Looks to be a fun horse and I look forward to any you can share of your girl!
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kate b
Gold Member
Wales
1418 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2007 : 11:38:27 AM
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Egbert,
Many, many thanks for sharing your time and great knowledge.
I am very pleased with what you said about Delilah - she is a very sophisticated young lady! I will be very busy taking on your advice and looking further into the pedigrees of the stallions I like!
I have another 2 mares that I would like to know more about:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/georgina+bint+echo
I would love for you to take a knowledgable 'guess' at her traits and characteristics based on her pedigree!
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gil+johara
Having looked at Gil Johara I think she is Rodania (not sure if I am correct) However I have been told that you could give me information on Gil's dam WN Natalia. I would be most grateful for any info.
One other question - of the stallions on my 'wish list' so far, none seem to have tail female lines that I have noticed you mentioning on this topic... How does one go about finding out which 'group' the tail female belongs to?
Thank you so much for your valuable time.
Kate |
      
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Edited by - kate b on 16 Jun 2007 8:32:58 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2007 : 12:21:28 AM
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Hi Kate,
Gil Johara must be pretty awesome. Extraordinarily beautiful with big eyes, extreme type, probably a tad small, exceptionally smooth, a mare with which you can do nearly anything...breed to anyone and have a great result tho' I'd like to see you go with a substantial Seglawi.
Think I am a tad envious. She is a Kuhailan Rodania tracing to some very very elegant mares Araballarina was out of this world.
Georgina Bint Echo is somewhat different-more round, perhaps not quite as smooth as Gil Johara. She is should be more substantialtoo. She is a Dahman Shawania so must be very pretty but one of those mares you would be happy to go hunting with...You can breed her to just about any stallion-no need to worry about the stallions tf line- you really like and the result should be excellent.
Now do we get to see some pictures??? |
Edited by - Egbert on 17 Jun 2007 09:52:55 AM |
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kate b
Gold Member
Wales
1418 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2007 : 10:46:27 AM
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Egbert
Thanks again for your time and lovely comments!
Here is Georgina, she is very pretty (although not particularly 'typey')
Yes, Gil is awesome! She has beautiful big eyes, and she stands around 15.1. Only had her a few weeks, so not got round to taking any pics, but I do have these (I believe taken by Hans Trummer):
Thanks again
Kate |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2007 : 9:54:34 PM
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Kate,
Both are beautiful...am truly tickled to see how lovely they are. Now seeing that Georgina is a gray-wow! I was thinking with her Babson blood she would be a dark bay...Think you got the best expression of the genes in that cross. You've a wonderful group! And am really antsy to see who you breed them to! |
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rosyw
Platinum Member
England
3756 Posts |
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Alexia
New Member
England
21 Posts |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2007 : 12:13:35 PM
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Hi there Egbert
I am thinking af breeding with my colt (Roe Arabi - Balenina x Om El Mareikh) next year and have heard really good things about what you do to put the right kind of horses together. My boy is on all breed pedigree - Link
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/roe+arabi
I wondered if you could tell me what I should cover to produce a nice foal. I would want a bay or chestnut that stands over 15hh.
Thanks
Victoria |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 11:07:24 AM
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Originally posted by AlexiaOriginally posted by Egbert
Interesting question Alexia. By the way there are two significant traits that I see regularly in the Dajanias....Colts nearly always better than full sisters and the babies always have boxy muzzles-not as bad as some of the Spanish but definitely something you might want to watch.
Hi Egbert, Apologies for taking a while to reply and thank you for your detailed response - not enough time really but could not resist for once. I do agree that some female lines seem to have the knack of producing quality generation after generation which I suppose means some traits must persist even though I do not really feel that the tail female line is always the visually dominant factor. It was fascinating to read about the Wild Thyme damline, one of those lines that only exists in the middle of pedigrees in Crabbet/Old English pedigrees in the UK - via the stallion Nuri Sherif. With pedigrees that are predominantly within a consistent bloodline grouping, I often find I can deduce a lot about the horse concerned both physically and in temperament without ever having seen it. More outcrossed pedigrees are harder of course because it does depend on what has predominated. You are the only other person I have come across to date who does this too and over such a wide range of bloodlines. I'll certainly keep skimming even if I do not manage to post again. I am afraid I am not very practised at the Arabian Lines techno skills so I failed to give you info and PICs on my mare. I do so agree that the N line stallions were so often better than the mares - who but Lady Wentworth would have even tried to breed from such an ugly creature as Nisreen BUT she was the dam of Indian Gold and the granddam of Indian King and Indian Magic. Amazing. So you can find the pedigree of my mare at www.allbreedpedigree.com/narishka .Unfortunately I do not know how to post you PICs. That boxy muzzle is not present but the mare is double bred to Naseel/triple Naxina and by a double Naufal stallion, the latter contributing a lighter bone and finer, drier head although the grey colour and the "pretty" are very Naseel. She is moderately deep (very deep in comparison to many non-Crabbets), very well ribbed up with very good breadth across the chest and exceptional muscling through chest and forearms. She does inherit a somewhat flat whither from all the Skowronek blood, the N line less than perfect croup and the somewhat light bone (by Crabbet standards only) of the Naufal/Queen of Sheba connection. If I knew how to post PICs I could show you images of her as a bay foal and dark grey yearling where she was the spitting image of her sire and how she has seemed to show more of her Naxina/Naseel breeding as she has matured. As a yearling people used to ask me if she was Egyptian! Well, this is more than you probably wanted to know! Fascinating thread - thank you. Alexia
Alexia,
What you want to do to read any pedigree in depth is to run the strain of each horse in the 5th generation to see what the overall influence is. Your mare sounds lovely but not ridden if she is that fine boned as a mature horse. As a general rule, bone even of those horses that start out particularly fine, tend with consistent riding to expand and become more substantial. Also contrary to popular belief, fine bone is most often seen on horses that mature late, often with a substantial number of lines tracing directly to the desert. Typical of the Dajania/Rodania/ Queen of Sheba lines. After awhile, looking at the various lines mature over time think you would find that there are distinctions. For years the two dam lines that confused me most were those of Wadduda and Rodania...one a Seglawi the other Kuhailan...Funnily enough it turns out that the mtDNA traces to the same dam!
So it must be remembered that we are looking at the strains in terms of generations of breeding by the same family that developed consistent type. That is what I see dominating in the more quality dam lines. In more modern terms, Gainey, Selby, Tone, Om El Arab, Forbis have created horses whose looks are distinctive.
The boxy muzzle is more pronounced in the chestnuts and bays than the Dajania grays tho' with Naseel it is there more in terms of a squareish shape...still can be delicate but not as fine as in the Seglawi al Abds via Zulima that literally can be teacup sized, fine and round. The loss of withers is indeed a Skowronek trait but more frequently seen in the Skowronek grays rather than the bays and chestnut descendents. Narishka sounds divine and a real treasure. Who are you breeding her to? |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 11:11:19 AM
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Egbert, I hate to draw your attention away from this fascinating thread, but as a complete novice I would really appreciatate your ideas on the "Golden Cross" replies in the Discussion area on this forum, especially on which mares would be ideal for a "golden cross" stallion and vice versa. Thank you so much in advance and look forward to your response.
Carla, xx.
Carla, xx. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 11:46:47 AM
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Sorry Egbert, will do my best to point the thread in this direction!!
Carla, xx. |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 12:20:11 PM
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Thank you for your lovelly comments! That does explain him to a tee!!
I am looking to stand him at the stud where I bought him for a couple of months later next year once I have him graded etc. I would love to buy a mare eventually and start from there. I have already had so much interest in him though so fingers crossed he will be a busy boy!!
I am thinking af breeding with my colt (Roe Arabi - Balenina x Om El Mareikh) next year and have heard really good things about what you do to put the right kind of horses together. My boy is on all breed pedigree - Link
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/roe+arabi
I wondered if you could tell me what I should cover to produce a nice foal. I would want a bay or chestnut that stands over 15hh.
Thanks
Victoria
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Victoria,
He must be rather substantial and a big boy who won't stop growing for a few more years! This is a stallion you can breed to nearly anything you want. He is a Kuhailan Krush-same tail female as Padron's Psyche and that could be a direction you might want to look. Am presuming you will want to lease a mare for him? Lucky you. By the pedigree he is a people lover, quite charming, and should prove a wonderful ride. Lucky you!
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 5:21:16 PM
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Hope I've got this right - this should show a head shot of my mare Narishka, taken 2003 at 9 years old. Photo by Gunilla Hamer. If this works, I'll be away! Alexia
Narishka gr/b 1994, Ranadi /Nafranta by Manto
Owned & bred by Alexia Ross |
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Athena
Silver Member
England
442 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2007 : 5:50:57 PM
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Me again! This is Narishka at 6 days old. Alexia
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2007 : 1:04:48 PM
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Alexia,
She is truly out of this world gorgeous and can see where many would think she was sE, but bet she moves like the best of Crabbet! Why Indian Idyll? Think you might be hitting a wall with her because it is too close in a sense, i.e., pure in the strain Dajania...with all the Dajania she has already-double Naxina on the bottom there? Think you would be better served by Grecian Idyll...Just a gut level hunch but my feeling is that if she met him she would like him better (going on the premise that Estopa couldn't be put in foal unless she loved the stallion, first and foremost!). Plus the Silver would be picked up through Senga for a stunning result-a real possibility of the bay gene being pulled in. That baby might be more successfully bred back to Indian Idyll.
Lord, judging from the pedigree and the look, it is critical to get her in foal. Do they still ban embryo transfers over there?
Well done you! You created something extraordinary in your girl and just pray you can get her in foal. She really needs to breed on. She is one of the more important Crabbets I've seen in a long time! |
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Bethan
Silver Member
Wales
306 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2007 : 2:48:55 PM
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Whey hey I've done it....I have read all 43 pages. I have attempted to understand and follow what has been going on, here is my pride and joy http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kazeme+el+mystral
Am I right his sire line is Zobeyni and his dam line is Rodania. Does that make his strain Kuhaylan Ajuz? I am totally facinated Is there anyway Egbert you could tell me a bit more about him and his characteristics please, when you have time? |
Edited by - Bethan on 21 Jun 2007 2:49:43 PM |
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Tail Female Line....?
