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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 11:04:05 AM
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Hi Liv,
Would that I could help you post it...but I've not got a clue. Can't wait to see! What color is he? |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 07:06:32 AM
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Hi Egbert
Am going to read through how to post a picture again and will try later on tonight. Ali is bay with white socks!
Will try later, Liv |
     
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 1:07:58 PM
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| Bless You Anne! Hope Liv sees your post. What is kind of nice about her boy is that he is bay and that is significant as it points to the strength of Nefisa-down on the tail female line-who was also a bay....So it should be true reflection of the horse and the character that goes with this line. |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 9:42:03 PM
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| Thanks Anne, that's really kind of you. Have attached a couple of pics to an email. Hope they are ok. |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 10:23:35 PM
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Here they are
Ali G at Malvern - photo Sweet
Liv, is this Ali G as well? the photo was titled Bandana Maisie?
Anne  |
     
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 06:30:36 AM
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Sorry Anne, this picture was in a folder of pics taken of the puppies (called Bandana & Maisie), should have changed the name! Yes, it is Ali.
Thanks so much for that. Must try and do it myself! |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2006 : 09:04:37 AM
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Anne,
Thank you so very very much for posting these wonderful pictures of Ali G.
Liv, Ali G is lovely but better yet he defines harmonious conformation...I found this picture of Nefisa and seeing him and her...can only imagine what he might have accomplished, left intact. The strength of this bay gene to create powerful breeding stock is fascinating. The icing being the grays of this line but the breeding power is quite evident in the bay when the Nefisa influence is studied. And of course I am making an assumption-but it seems to work that color travels with the dominant genes in an operative sense: http://www.arieana.com/nbnefisa.html
Although each time we breed a new horse, variations on the genes occurs and can have infinite results....they nevertheless seem to follow a certain path even with minor mutations and variations such breeding carries. Why the reliability? Because for three thousand years the Bedu bred them for certain characteristics and had a comparatively small gene pool from which to draw. That is why the dam lines/tail females are critical.
There were many families breeding from certain lines and each family had certain characteristics which they emphasized. For the last 1000 years the Arabians have trickled out to various parts of the West but what have we found in just the last decade? Mitochondrial DNA-something that is for the most part found only on the dam line and traces to the tail female, demonstrates how truly limited the available blood was. For example, in the United States we received roughly 125 original dam lines by the '70's. With the ability to measure mtDNA we found out something unexpected...Certain tail females thought to be Kuhailan Jellaby, turned out to have the same tail female as a Seglawi Jedran; another thought to be Kuhailan Rodania shared the same tail female as a known Seglawi al Abd...and so on. And this was actually only a comparatively small sample measured.
What this demonstrated was that the strains were more of a reflection of circumstances, such as acquisition, capture, trade, or ? In other words horses changed hands and over the generations acquired the characteristics that were important to the tribe in which they found themselves....
One of the elements that was crucial to all the tribes was temperament. Not the sweet, friendly temperaments that we are familiar with, but the temperaments that ensured the horses were not easily taken in battle or by sneak thieves in the night. The horses that were kept, were noisy with the approach of strangers, would bite and kick at strangers while simultaneously being absolutely reliable with the owner and his immediate family. If the stories are true, the most valued favorites actually lived in the tents with their masters....so they had to not only be loyal but intelligent and athletic enough not to take missteps.
In any event hopefully when you are breeding these animals, it is important to remember that every once in awhile, the original characteristics can come through that for whatever reason have lost the mitigating traits bred in during the 19th and 20th centuries...and it is why it is so important to pay attention to just what traits, you as the breeder value most.
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 08:09:52 AM
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Egbert you are so good love to read your post everytime. To me it sounds right, that the arabians are loyal to their owners and want to look carefull at strangers before they alloud them to come near and touch, except when the owner is there.
Find , when I have new horses that it take a while before they settle, not so much with the other horses, but with me. They have not been unfriendly or mad, but they have look right through me as I wasnīt there.
Maybe if they change owners a lot they got used with it, donīt know, as I have not change horses very much.
Egbert, I know everybody ask you to look at their pedigrees, hope you can find time to look at my mares to.
Why I am asking is because they go back to Dafina, an El Krush mare, who is not mentioned very much, in the Crabbet breeding as she has not produced so many.This line is now very rare and it seems, that people has almost forget it.Has been told that Istashra was a very beautifull mare.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marbon+mead
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/marbon+martini
Gunni.
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Edited by - gu-ku-vi on 13 Dec 2006 08:25:57 AM |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2006 : 9:37:39 PM
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Can't thank you enough Egbert for sharing all your knowledge with me. I can only hope one day I'll come somewhere close! This certainly makes for some very interesting reading.
Anne, once again, thanks for posting pics. |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 11:49:06 AM
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Dear Gunni and Liv,
Am so glad if you have found the knowledge useful. Remembering how many years I stumbled around, and was blessed by the guidance of long time British breeders-it is truly a joy to be able to pass it along.
Gunni will take a closer look at your mares tomorrow, but thought you might be pleased to know that Dafina's influence is actually HUGE....You see, she is the tail female to a very well known and popular horse both in Europe and America...You might have heard of him: PADRONS PSYCHE!
' |
Edited by - Egbert on 14 Dec 2006 11:51:07 AM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2006 : 1:12:47 PM
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I've been looking at your website, Egbert, and I was wondering how numerous CMK Basilisks are in the US? My 16yo mare is by an EAO/Babson/CMK stallion, and she turned out pretty well - nice balance, excellent type and bags of movement :)
Keren |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2006 : 12:43:03 PM
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Hi Gunni,
Finally had a chance to look at the two pedigrees. First Martini's pedigree had to be corrected as Crystal King's sire and dam were given as ponies! Anyway that is now straightened out.
The only thing I see here is that there is potential for tremendous beauty here, but what should distinguish the two lines though nearly all is the same, is that Martini should be a bit sweeter than Mead. That is because Fejr is in the pedigree-down on the dam line.
Dafina, to whom both mares trace, was not used at Crabbet except for early breedings which were promptly sold. They had to be at the time as Lady W, despite pleading for re-consideration of Dafina, was not registerable with the Jocky Club/GSB. Dafina was a Kuhailan Khrush, originally presented to Lady Wentworth by Mr. Clayon of the Arab Bureau as she was bred by the Muteyr tribe in Arabia per Gazder. Both should be excellent beauty.
Hi Keren,
With over 600,000 registrations...I've no idea how numerous the Basilisks are. However they do seem to be well represented as people bring pedigrees for evaluations and to learn more about them. |
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2006 : 11:07:40 AM
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Egbert: can I butt in here too? Amelia is tail female from Hagar (via Zem Zem and Zimrud).
How do you carry all that knowledge around?! I am impressed.
Grey Girl |
 Said the little eohippus, "Iīm going to be a HORSE"  |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2006 : 11:52:12 AM
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Hi Grey Girl,
Thank you! Been studying for half a century and have a tremendous library. That combined with the internet, and a number of old timers whose knowledge makes mine look like something found in a thimble...is a huge help.
Were you asking a question about Amelia? (She has a stunning pedigree.) |
Edited by - Egbert on 17 Dec 2006 12:49:58 PM |
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2006 : 1:45:35 PM
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Egbert: Wow, I'm still very impressed...!
Yes, sorry, I meant to ask what I can expect from Amelia in terms of her ancestry - she is a fantastic horse to own, handle and ride: kind, intelligent, full of character; very beautiful too.
I believe that her breeding is pretty rare? I hope to breed a foal from here in a few years' time, obviously to a 100% Old English stallion.
Grey Girl |
Said the little eohippus, "Iīm going to be a HORSE" |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2006 : 11:48:59 AM
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Hi Grey Girl,
Amelia does indeed trace back to the wonderful Hagar who was the Blunt's original journey mare, purchased as a 6 year old in Aleppo in 1878. She proved very reliable and a wonderful athlete. Hagar was bred by the Sebaa Anazeh and was captured in battle by the Roala. Originally purchased from the Blunts by Ethelred Dillon-who wouldn't have anything but great athletes, she kept her for 13 years, only 3 of which she was fertile and then gave her to MP H.C. Stephens and died a year later in 1899. According to All Breeds she had 8 foals, her last born was in 1889, 4 fillies and 4 colts. But the US Registry shows she had 11 foals-5 fillies and 6 colts She was a Kuhailan Ajuz.
Amelia's first two generations tell a story in themselves...The sire's side of the pedigree, Winters Amir, is derived from the Duchess of Rutland's finest stock...via her beloved Bright Crown-surely one of the most perfect stallions to have ever lived. Kind, sweet, endearing, beautiful, conformationally correct Bright Crown defined perfection for all who knew him. Winter's amir is out of a Silvern Idyll daughter out of the incredible dam Queen of Diamonds by Mikeno and out Grey Crystal. Amelia's damline is bred from the great Marion Cooke bloodlines, Ahmoun x Luda...giving Luda, (to digress though Ms. Cooke bred 171 horses, one superb stallion should be instantly recognized, Ahmoun!) with the dam's sire, bred from the legendary Murray breeding program, Golden Cavalier (General Gold x Crystal Gold) simply remarkable bloodlines. You should enjoy some fabulous babies from such a terrific mare!
Hagar, is comparatively rare in any pedigree, nevermind as the dam line, but she has enjoyed tremendous success through her descendants. So you have beauty, athletic ability and kind reliability-all those characteristics that should ensure she creates a simply sensationl baby. Good luck and promise to keep us posted! |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 06:10:58 AM
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Thank you Egbert.Am I wrong if I said that Rayana was sold to Russia?
Perhaps that Dafinetta was the only one there has some offsprings in UK, and that Dafina was sold and have a couple of offsprings more.
You are right, telling about temperament in those two mares. Martini is a darling , but if she comes out of the fence she is a devil, that you canīt catch, she simply run and run, where Mead is more easy in that way and come when you call.
Both mares is sweet, but Mead have a strong personality that means if she donīt want to, she mean it, and it takes time to persuade her, that she has to. But there is not a single drop of evil in them, they are very, very sweet, just that, that Martini is easier to tell what to do, allthough, it is something that she donīt like.
Meads reaction t.ex with the farrier first time, was to raise a little in the front, but she is carefulle and have the forelegs under the albowes to be sure that she donīt hit us, she is so lovely.
Gunni. |
Edited by - gu-ku-vi on 19 Dec 2006 06:49:37 AM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 09:52:10 AM
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Hi Gunni!
Was surprised to find that Dafina produced 11 foals per the US Datasource! And yes, Ryama was sent to Russia, bred to Naseem with whom she produced only two foals and of those two only one bred on. In the UK 5 of Dafina's offspring bred on. Fayella by Fayel had 2 babies and 15 grandget, Aafina by Aaron had one baby no grandget; Yarzeena by Yassb had 4 babies and 9 grandget; Hazzal by Algol, sired only 1 foal but that youngster, a daughter, had 12 babies amd 8 of those have bred on! Finally Dafinetta had 15 foals with 39 grandget! And oh my she was bred to her half brother for the most part, Saladin II (was the sire of Burkan, sire of White Lightning, sire of Carmargue).
All in all would expect Gunni that it would be entirely possible to find quite a few descendants via the different sons and daughters of Dafina in the UK, Russia and the US, most particularly in the Guiness herd.
Love your two girls! Are you breeding them? |
Edited by - Egbert on 19 Dec 2006 09:56:13 AM |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 11:03:07 AM
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Thank You Egbert, I think that Dafina deserves not to be forgotten between all the other wonderfull mares, there has been, but where there, after all, is much more left.
What I am been told is that, when you talk pure Crabbet there are only two left now, Mead and her sister, as the stallions all are been gelded.
Di Ellis now have two colts out of Melissa, who also carries the line.
Yes I am breeding the mares, Mead are in foal to Moulton Millennium, I have bred Martini to to him but it is unsecure whats comes up as they are both carriers, Mead is clear, and of course I am asking please for a clear colt to continure.
The only two picture I has been able to find of Dafina, is one from an articel written by Peter Upton, I have tried to figure out to put it on, but failed as I am not so good with pcīs.
The painting of her is by Peter Upton.
![]() 
![]() 
Perhaps you can read the articel, I donīt know, it is quit small letters I think, but the picture shows Dafina, and I think she is lovely, thinking of how it was to make photos in those days.
Gunni.
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Edited by - gu-ku-vi on 19 Dec 2006 11:10:33 AM |
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Moosie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
717 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 4:08:15 PM
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| Hi, to go slightly off current topic - Dafinetta must have had a wide influence and appear in lots of pedigrees it seems as I have a gelding who traces back to her quite closely too. Still reading this thread with fascination! |
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member
Denmark
744 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 4:31:21 PM
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Please understand, when I said she was rare, it was in the 100% crabbet I meant.Perhaps also in the 100% GSB.
Regards Gunni.
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Grey Girl
Platinum Member
England
1554 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 5:27:47 PM
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Thank you Egbert!
Much obliged to you.
Grey Girl |
Said the little eohippus, "Iīm going to be a HORSE" |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2006 : 8:27:09 PM
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Here is a picture of Ali Gee's dam for you Liv Thoraya, I dont know if you have seen it on another thread or not, I think I did post it some time ago, if so I apologise
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www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2006 : 12:45:44 PM
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Grey Girl, it was a pleasure!
Gunni,
I hate to do this but two things: Martini doesn't appear to be a straight Crabbet as she has a line to Algol on the dam line that isn't via Dargee but to Aaron by Algol...On the other hand Mead would be. Also, Dafina is not GSB and that is why Lady W didn't keep her. She couldn't convince the GSB to enter Dafina. They had closed the book to Arabians. I believe that Skowronek was the last Arabian so entered. Thus her descendants cannot be 100% GSB, ever. That said her quality is evident and can only pray that you have the good fortune of breeding several babies from these girls as they are tremendously important to Crabbet breeders. You are quite right 100% tail female Dafina are rarer than hens teeth! |
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Topic |
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Tail Female Line....?
