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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 11:37:18 PM
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Mike,
So many good points you brave soul! Agree 100%! Unfortunately, my favorite, Jamil, does have *Morafic in the 6th generation but my thinking was that the Ibn Halima would actually over-ride...
What sE stallions in the UK would you use on Taraneh? |
Edited by - Egbert on 15 Nov 2006 11:42:26 PM |
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Taylor
Gold Member
England
1432 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 11:51:02 PM
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I recently enquired about NK Hafid Jamil, what a simply stunning horse, WOW! All this time I never realised Al Nakeeb stud was only an hour away from me. Unfortunately he is only standing at stud until next march until he returns to Dr. Hans Nagel. He is only standing to non-straight egyptian mares only. But I couldnt afford the stud fee even if I wanted to use him :(
Egbert I have replied to your email.
Kirsty |
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katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 12:18:29 AM
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Oooh - I'm curious now Mike: what exactly is it about the Padrons Psyche/Ibn Morafic cross that would be a bad idea? Is this a physical thing or a temperament issue?
Lovely to have you back on here, by the way - missed you during your move - hope you are settling in OK in Ireland? |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 12:35:10 AM
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Egbert,
Regarding NK Hafid Jamil, his combination of Ibn Halima, Alaa El Din & Hadban Enzahi, should overide the Morafic/Moniet/Shaikh Al Badi except that Jamil does have 3 crosses to Ansata Shah Zaman(a full brother in blood of The Egyptian Prince) in the 5th & 6th generation so perhaps re-enforcing the Morafic/Moniet axis in the pedigree of the resulting foal.
The same sort of logic prevented me from suggesting a son of this particular Alidaar daughter from whom frozen semen is I believe available
As for UK based horses, I will cop out and sleep on the matter
Mike
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Elys
New Member
14 Posts |
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joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 09:50:38 AM
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Hi Egbert
If you get a chance I'd love to hear what you make of this boy's breeding. He was put to sleep this week at the age of 31 and was the first pure bred that I rode, I used to share him.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/Fire+Kracker
Many thanks
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Harthall Rashida RIP, Binley Ishara, Bouchan
Chorleywood, Hertfordshire |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 12:59:12 PM
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Hi Mike,
The only thing about TheEgytpianPrince was that he didn't quite sire like his full brother in blood...sort of like the differences between *Carmargue and his full brothers...The Egyptian Prince became known as a great broodmare sire, but not as good a sire of stallions, despite siring 4 times as many babies as Shah Zaman! Conversely A Shah Zaman sired some pretty nice stallions as well as daughters, e.g., Ansata Shah Zam, TAh Zaman, Ansata Nile King, et. al., bred on quite well. Of course out of 200+++ offspring, a handful of stallions should be good! To not have a standout with 800+ foals suggests that different genes are operating, don't you think? Hafid Jamil might be worth the risk, especially judging by some of the offspring viewed. But oh my...you make so many good points.
Elys, will try to begin reading your pedigrees later today. That is quite a list! |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 2:33:50 PM
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Egbert - as requested I have copied and pasted my question from the American conditioning thread. I should be fascinated to hear your views. I could try to post a photo but may need help! Jude may do it for me.
I have promised myself one evening to read through the 'tail female line' thread (it keeps getting too big for the time I have available) but can I ask you what your opinion is on Lance's breeding - he's by Andrus and out of Lalique DS (Menes). I of course, like all of us, think my own horse stunningly beautiful and he's definately a tremendous ride, but what should I know for inhand showing? He seems to be much bigger than both parents but maybe it's because he's a gelding.
Thank you.
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Roseanne |
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Elys
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 7:42:11 PM
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Egbert, I took a few out for you so that it isn't so overwhelming. Now there are just two  . Once you have a chance to breathe after this group I may throw a couple more your way. I guess I just got a little excited!  |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 9:52:59 PM
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Hi Egbert and Mike
Thank you so much for the information you have posted so far you can not realise what an insite to breeding etc you have given me although I have to confess when you both start with the so many crosses to this and that I am lost, but I will be looking at these in more depth as soon as I have time (don't run a heating company in the winter !)
just a couple of questions sorry
Mike you asked what colour Taraneh was when she was born why (it was a mottled brown apparently)
also in one of your comments you pointed out
"If and only if she has exceptionally good legs, former world champion Hadidi would be interesting. Since you have plenty of time to make up your mind, I would urge you to go out and look and decide what you like."
The first point re legs I don't know if she has good legs. I know June did not keep a mare in a breeding program that was unsuitable to breed from and I know that she intended to breed from Taraneh the year she offered her to me (Taraneh was in part a thank you for looking after an elderly horse she was fond of)
and regarding the second bit do you mean looks as I must admit I like taraneh as she is pretty but I do not like the very narrow faced arabs as per the gray you posted.
Anne |
    
..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 07:58:57 AM
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Honest folks, am working on the pedigrees but Anne, if you like nice facial width and doubling up on the Rodania is ok with you...you should seriously consider using one of Mike's boys...They are lovely! (Mike should send you pictures of his boys...they are - at least in photos - pure perfection! Also Mike knows Egyptian lines far better than I.)
Often, and I don't think this is telling tales out of school, if we double, triple, quadruple, certain lines....and Nazeer is that way in countless pedigrees as are Raffles, Raseyn, Bask, Bey Shah, Fadjur, Mesaoud...You have to keep a close eye on legs. If legs are great...and all things being equally good, it doesn't matter that you add yet another to the mix! |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 09:29:38 AM
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Hi Egbert don't worry Classic Maiden is on the list of must sees and to be honest for some reason I could not get any pictures from Mikes web site but have obviously seen the ones of Maiden posted on here.
and when you say if doubling up on the Rodania is OK with me I don't know what the effects of it would be sorry I really am a complete novice and way out of my depth which is why I appreciated your input so much.
Mike I know this is asking you to be unbiased but would Maiden be a good match?
Egbert I did get your email thank you but I ended up on a home page and was unable to find the photo's you indicated would be there I'll try again over the weekend when I have more time sorry must dash again.
Anne |
..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 12:27:58 PM
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Hi Elys!Thank you! This is an All American pedigree in that it has blood from every conceivable major horsebreeding country such as Poland, Egypt, UK, and influences from a number of others plus Davenport-the US's major importer from the ME. Winnsonet's major contributor tho' is through Crabbet Park with sire line to the Polish Kuhailan Afas, dam line to the Crabbet import Ferida, a Menaghy and though her to Fejr, renowned for transmitting her superb temperament for at least 5 generations and often many more more thanks to the dam line appearing elsewhere in the pedigree which it does throughout via Farana and Ferseyn on the sire's side! While she has a lot of beauty in the pedigree, am not sure she could be classified as a great beauty as the sire line's beauty comes through the grays and bays but the chestnuts often lacked the quality of the other lines so only very special ones were retained. So for breeding purposes you could pick out a line that particularly appealed to you within this pedigree, because it is such a diverse grouping-the possibilities are unlimited. I think it would be fun to find a great Gainey stallion for her.
Your straight Egyptian mare has to be ultra smooth bodied and well coupled over the loin. She should be very upright and beautiful with big eyes, good neck, balanced, good mover and a great bride for the Ansata Ibn Halima line...a la Al Lahab.
In both instances I'd be looking for great beauty as both mares should be able to move fairly well and have obviously outstanding temperaments.
Joanna, Am so sorry for your loss. Fire Kracker's operative word was sheer, joyous, fun! Beautifully bred, he must have been exceptionally good looking and well built with a tightly coupled body, smooth, never a disappointment. His pedigree suggests he was also a very very comfortable ride. He had to have been a truly great horse and could have been an exceptional show horse. Sire line was Skowronek via Nabor! And the dam line is Rodania...so there was always a combination of sweetness and mischief with him and sometimes he seemed to read your mind and could really tune into your moods. Oh my such a horse will be missed.
Roseanne, Which Andrus? There are three listed in the All Breed
Anne, Sometimes doubling up of the Rodania can cause a bit of coarseness..but it is usually found in association with Nurreddin II which I don't find in your pedigrees...Just wonderfully solid well bred horses. Another wonderful stallion is KZ Ibreez to be found at Susan George's Georgian Arabians. Saw a number of foals by him there this past summer and they were wonderful - very very beautiful. You've a very well bred mare so think you will be able to breed her pretty much as you wish and have a great result.
Folks, as I was writing this, fell asleep about 4 times so if it doesn't make sense...Please ask!
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 12:44:36 PM
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Egbert, you really should be getting some sleep I think it is very early morning there isn't it?oh and if you are thinking I have been very much in evidence today, thats because I cant do too much outside with the horses, so my groom is doing them all, makes time for me to get up to mischief |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
Edited by - LYNDILOU on 17 Nov 2006 12:46:56 PM |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 4:24:54 PM
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Hiya Egbert,
Sorry to trouble you again, but just wondering if i could have your opinion on this breeding.
I'm afraid i still can't put a direct link up, but they both should be on www.allbreedpedigree.com
Zaqrah
G Halim Shirab
This is my chosen breeding for next year. Comformationly, they go, genes- ?????? i haven't a clue, nothing close for me to go on.
Cheers Nikki |
pagey |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 10:48:59 PM
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Nikki,
From what little I can see and recognize-in Zaqrah...you will have athletes but not a lot of pretty...and when I type in G Halim Shirab, he doesn't come up.
What are you breeding for? Pretty and athletic? What mare were you planning to use...Can she overcome potential plainess?
Lynda...All I can think of is your poor finger. Hope it is healing fast and well! |
Edited by - Egbert on 17 Nov 2006 10:53:57 PM |
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Elys
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 12:55:26 AM
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Winnsonet actually a gray even though she is registered chestnut, late bloomer I guess. She takes my breath away, so I would definitely classify her as beautiful. Let me see if I have this correct though. If I did breed her and she ended up with a chestnut foal, are you saying that based on her pedigree the foal would most likely not be very pretty and would be of lesser quality? Knowing that, I would assume it is a good idea to not breed to a chestnut since she will be that much more likely to produce one. Better to breed her to a bay or gray? Or would everything change depending on the sire line of the stallion she was bred to? Please set me straight if I am off.
As far as the straight egyptian, do you think it would be better to stay within the gene pool (another SE), or do you think she would produce well with another line such as Crabbet or Spanish? Just curious. I know it's a lot to ask based on a pedigree alone. Thank you again!! |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 03:45:16 AM
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Not quite. Years ago the Poles had an extreme prejudice against Chestnuts...Why? Who knows...but there was a sort of rule of thumb that IF you had a chestnut from the old Polish lines it was not nearly as beautiful as their bays and grays. So the fact that your Winnsonet is actually a gray has not over-ridden the chestnut mythology.
One thing I've found in some of the Comet lines...a bit common comparatively in the Polish lines over all, is an eye-set that is slightly high-though as frequently quite wide. That is the only thing I'd keep in mind when picking selecting a stallion to breed to Winnsonet along with the ordinary standards of conformation/correctness and type...And yes, sire line does count so always select on the basis in the end, of what makes your heart race!
Your straight Egyptian is so royally bred...if she has the wonderful up hill structure that so many of the Nabiels have...would be very inclined to go outside. But if it is only a one time opportunity then stay within the breed parameters. |
Edited by - Egbert on 18 Nov 2006 09:39:01 AM |
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Lanabanana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2691 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 10:15:48 AM
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| Egbert, I think the stallion that Nikki refers to is actually G Halim Sharib not Shirab, probably just a typing error. Sharib is entered on the allbreedpedigree site. |
     
Hampshire. |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 10:45:06 AM
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G Halim Sharib was bought by Joyce Green and her husband from Gucci.
I remeber going down to see him and admired him at the time, he is very well bred and has produced some nice stock. Minuette's daughter Musique was bred to him and produced a lovely filly now owned by Gudrun Von Trevena. |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 6:37:54 PM
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Hi Egbert, Andrus (DK). Was owned by Gucci and was on lease at the time of the auction - then was sold to the person who had him on loan. I'll have to find his stud card in my files to find out extra information if you need it. Please let me know.
Thank you very much. |
Roseanne |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 10:19:50 AM
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G Halim Sharib (Thank you Lynda!) looks via his pedigree to be a typical Ansata stunner. He is a Dahman Shahwan...and like all of that line exudes extreme type. Again he is loaded with Nazeer-in a quick count there appears to be 9 in the first 5 generations and your dam lines are dominated by repeats of the Dahman and Hadban Enzahi so this stallion is going to dominate whoever he is bred to....So I'd watch temperament and structural correctness. From what Lynda has written, sounds like he has passed scrutiny with flying colors!
Roseanne, am just not sure which one...If you could find out his dam's name that would help. Perhaps a check of the progeny lists of each of the Andrus's?
Folks, I will be unavailable through Thursday but as always, will be looking forward to your questions! |
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joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 10:38:33 PM
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Hello Egbert, Sorry not to give you sufficient information. Lance is by Andrus (by Etat (Pl) x Alita) out of Lalique DS (US) (Menes - SU) x La Salone Ltd. Hope that gives you more to go on. Thanks.
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Roseanne |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 9:13:57 PM
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Hi Everyone...Am back....
Joanna, Fire Kracker sounds such a character...I miss him with you!
Roseanne! What a wonderful creature...G Lanzelot is. And of course he is listed under his correct name as above, not 'Lance'...
In terms of size, think he must have been gelded fairly early on, which is a shame as he is so royally bred...but suspect that he wasn't very attractive as a baby which would possibly account on the 'madness' of the gelding...The reason he might not have been a knockout early on is because he has so many Russo-Polish lines which for whatever reason-the good lord only knows and possibly a great geneticist....these can start out very homely and then progressively become more beautiful finally coming together when a horse is somewhere between 7-9 years of age. They can even put on a full hand around the 6th year!
In any event, Lance is tail male to Kuhailan Haifi and tail female to the oh so winning, Rodania, Kuhailan Ajuz. If he isn't a showhorse now, he is certainly bred to be both an in hand showhorse as well as stunning performance horse. He should move brilliantly and that is thanks in large measure to his tremendous dam, the AWESOME Lalique DS. This mare is so incredibly well-bred it nearly beggers belief...By Menes x La Salone LTD by *Salon. This dam line is one of the most winning in the US and the motion comes through the incredible Rose Diamond by Azrek! Azrek gave motion and that HAD to have been a dominant for motion as it comes through so consistently.
Then of all the mares on the dam's line, the sensational, incomparable, awesome, (am beginning to need more descriptive adjectives), splendid, superb...*Rossana...This mare imported from Crabbet by Kellogg, had to have been the stupidist sale in the history of Crabbet Park...The mare was a beautiful dappled gray, incredibly intelligent, absolutely trustworthy, and athletic...She literally would be asked to do something once and she would do it. Better yet, she transmitted all of it to her offspring! One of the great stories they tell is how her daughter Rossika inherited her dam's 'perfect disposition', was suddenly commandeered from a show back east...put in an elevator and taken up to a luncheon on the 16th floor of major hotel in Nashville, Tenn. The mare was still under 10 years of age, went on the elevator, performed exactly what was asked of her and didn't even have an accident! And her son Rossdin was nearly as legendary and was used as a trick horse at the Kellogg demonstrations, besides being an outstanding breeding stallion.
Moreover, the trainers at Kelloggs thought *Rossana had been trained to pull a cart as they hooked her up one day and she trotted off as though she had been doing it all of her life. And of course, she had never been trained to harness-ever! She literally defined 'versatile'.
Andrus must have been a stunningly masculine stallion if a bay, very very robustly Kuhailan-another of those doing anything asked horses...Would love to see pictures of Lance and of Andrus if there are any around...If he was a gray, he would still be very Kuhailan BUT the gray coloration would virtually guarantee a more refined look over all. Also suspect that he was/is elegant and would have imparted that to Lance.
Lance is definitely a horse worthy of being seen in hand! Go for it!
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Edited by - Egbert on 24 Nov 2006 9:37:10 PM |
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Tail Female Line....?
