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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 10:49:16 AM
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Hi Lisa and Carla! Funnily enough it was a private tour through a privately owned UK castle that literally tickled the imagination and pointed me towards Anvil-and any number of horses over the years. It was in the family portrait gallery. I had just met the owners' 20 year old daughter and then as we walked through the hallways...there on the walls was the same young woman over and over! When I turned to my hostess and said, "Did xxxx pose for all these painitngs?" The lady laughed and said, "No it is just a look that we can trace back to the early 1600's!" About every other generation, especially when a daughter was born, that same IDENTICAL look appeared. Just imagine that same kind of trait with an exceptionally inbred group of any animal and how strong it would be!
What does that suggest? That despite the family not being inbred, there was certainly a sex related DOMINANT gene that has been traveling with the family for the last 400 years!
When you run the 5th generation...you start to see if there are repeats. Initially with Lisa's gelding...I saw that Celebes or his offspring appeared in those first five generations. Then looking at how frequently he appeared suddenly realized that Witraz was actually the dominant stallion with a strong Celebes component-stare at the 5th generation long enough and it comes up
and bites you! Since your boy was a gray...who would be the most frequent gray found within the Witraz pedigree line that fits your gelding's description? Anvil! Look at how many times he is in your boy's pedigree-counting the lines to Witraz...If you look at these pedigrees almost as you would ingredients in a great stew...
Lisa, you ask really great questions! It is looking at these horses over 30 years...talking to the owners and handlers that helps one start to have a sense of their qualities that are exhibited...Knowing that color carries a tendency to be associated with the strains within a breeding group...i.e., straight Egyptian grays tend to look very Dahman; sP grays tend to be more associated with the Seglawis...and so on. Again, though, all subjective observations.
Carla...Thank you particularly for the wonderful honeymoon story...Love it that you saw the wonderful Idyll....and also for your kind words. I really do love this stuff and if sharing what little I know is a help...am truly thrilled.
First beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. I've a very dear friend who has been around nearly as long as I have been and her idea of a beautiful horse is rarely my idea...So it is important to remember before discussing type, beauty, et.al., that it is an extremely subjective topic.
Size in the sense that Gazder noted includes not just height but over all robustness as well; balance determines whether the neck, back, shoulder and croup/hip are in 'balance'/in harmony...the proverbial three circle horses the diameters of each section are roughly even. Shape refers to the overall look...Kuhailan being almost American quaterhorse looking compared to the more peacocky and upright longish and refined Seglawi look... |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 11:31:48 AM
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Oops! Just posted and then saw that more had been added!
Ok MarieMolly my guess is that he takes after the Ralvon's in that despite having a very heavy Crabbet component with lots of chrome...Ralvon's Nazeer sire line through the great Talal would suggest a horse of little or no white, a tad peacocky with a longer neck and head than one would associate with his more commonly seen Crabbet ancestry. Talal was known for not only beauty but exceptionally good limbs and would suspect that has come through as well. But the real influence in the pedigree is the multiples of Dajania dam lines. Thus would suspect that the horse has a 'look at me' attitude and is a better sire, with youngsters that are generally superior to himself. He should be an outstanding athlete as well because besides good limbs, excellent bone, he would be built to be a terrific riding horse and could probably excel under saddle. Lastly would expect with Irex on the dam line, that his head would be lovely with large eyes. Temperament wise-very charismatic but basically sweet natured. Any pictures?
Pat, Thank you! Wonder if she regrets having gelded Eilat?
Anne,
This is a dramatic looking mare! Big eyes that burn right through you nearly causing heart palpatations and she is queen of her pasture! She is probably the boss and won't put up with nonsense from anyone. She may not be extremely beautiful BUT she is so commanding a presence that you think of her as being truly exceptional. Also if you spend a lot of time with her she acts like she takes your presence for granted but the mare adores you...and worries when you aren't near. Despite being a Kuhailan Rodania...she is strongly influenced by the *Morafic dam line which should make her appear finer and more Seglawi over all. This is a wonderful mare and am wondering how you plan to breed her?
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 11:54:05 AM
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Hi Egbert,
I can't tell about his offspring, as I haven't seen any, but you are right about the lack of white and everything else. I believe he was bnc both in hand and under saddle some years ago.
The only thing which doesn't match is his temperament. He terrorised two grooms into leaving their employment and lashes out all the time. I have been told he was born miserable and has never been an easy horse to be around. He is a beautiful boy though 
 Marie |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 12:01:50 PM
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| What a shame...about the temperament...If the temperament wasn't man made then he should be gelded. I've seen bad temperaments passed on...Not fun and very dangerous for the unwitting. |
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Kash
Platinum Member
England
3777 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 12:09:47 PM
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| Originally posted by Egbert
Hi Kash!
What a lovely Kuhailan pedigree...Kuhailan Moradi/Memri to be precise...one of the Listening Horses per Davenport...They seem to be listening for fast approaches and had the reputation of signaling when hearing someone or something approach-terrific if one is the object of an ambush,,,not too helpful if planning to commit one! Delightful, fun horses...great rides, solid horses, wonderful movers, usually quite sensible and a popular Nationals winning line in the UK, e.g., mare winners include: Rishenda, Fanchon, Maesta, and BB Balenca; stallions: Sharzar, Manich, Bespechni, Gonorar, and Granit tend to typify the line. Since your girl is a double Kuhailan would tend to look first for an outstanding outcross Seglawi stallion...Ocean Eilat (absolutely fabulous pedigree-do any of you know if he is standing in the UK?), Ali Khamsin, and WSA Charismma would be my first choices.
Hi Egbert,
Sorry I haven't replied sooner - I forgot I posted last week!
Many thanks - how wonderfully insightful! The resemblance to how you have described her is amazing! She floats along as if her feet don't touch the ground and has such a loving character. I just fell in love with her as soon as I saw her
I'm just looking to the future really... but what a shame he has been gelded. I'll have to have a look at the others you suggested! Oh dear, if my partner catches me doing this he won't be too pleased! 
Here's one or two of my fave pictures of Agonia (taken by Erwin Escher)
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Photographs by Emma Maxwell and Peter Grant |
Edited by - Kash on 14 Nov 2006 12:15:27 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 12:14:04 PM
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Oh my Kash! Seeing her is such a delight! What a wonderful looking mare and truly she flies! Not a foot touching the ground in that photo!
You know another stallion that might be a lot of fun-IF he is standing to the public...a total outcross - would NK Hafid Jamil! What a beauty, and a Dahman Shahwan but straight Egyptian. |
Edited by - Egbert on 14 Nov 2006 1:46:12 PM |
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Kash
Platinum Member
England
3777 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 2:04:37 PM
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Thankyou!! She's simply my dream horse.
Thanks again for taking the time to look into Agonia!
Oooh, I'll have a look around for info on him. What would he bring?
May I ask, Egbert, what lines have you gone for in your horses? |
Photographs by Emma Maxwell and Peter Grant |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 2:24:35 PM
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Egbert, Mariemolly,
For pictures of Hadeir see this Forum under "More pictures of Nandina, Nimet, etc."
No way was Hadeir "born miserable". I foaled him and he proved to be very easy and knowing
to handle and manage. He was sold during the Tollard Park dispersal and went to his new home well weaned and well handled and everybodies favourite. He did very well showing gaining Res National Championships in-hand and aNational Championship ridden. According to the Stud Books he seems to have sired seven offspring on a private stud. |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 2:53:08 PM
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Hi Nimlat,
Thought it might be a different horse but according to the pics posted by Jingo, it is the same. I was told that the spelling was Hadier too, and that he had always been very difficult as long as anyone can remember. He is now at the stud were my coloured colt was sold to two weeks ago. Let me know if you'd like to see him again - it's near Gatwick.
Marie. |
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Nimlat
Silver Member
England
461 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 7:50:31 PM
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| Sorry, Hadeir is on "New owners needing info" under "Nandina, Nimet,etc." |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 8:23:23 PM
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Originally posted by Egbert:-
Anne,
This is a dramatic looking mare! Big eyes that burn right through you nearly causing heart palpatations and she is queen of her pasture! She is probably the boss and won't put up with nonsense from anyone. She may not be extremely beautiful BUT she is so commanding a presence that you think of her as being truly exceptional. Also if you spend a lot of time with her she acts like she takes your presence for granted but the mare adores you...and worries when you aren't near. Despite being a Kuhailan Rodania...she is strongly influenced by the *Morafic dam line which should make her appear finer and more Seglawi over all. This is a wonderful mare and am wondering how you plan to breed her?
I know what I would do, can I ask what colour Taraneh was when she was born?
Mike |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 9:16:29 PM
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What a shame to hear that Hadier's (sp?) temperament is questionable. As a youngster he always appeared to have a fantastic temperament. I remember many years ago when he was 4yrs, he made his Ridden Showing debut at Royal Windsor, another stallion in the class managed to dump his rider and get loose, he then "attacked" Hadier and tried to mount him (not a pretty sight). Apparently for a long time after this event, Hadier was very reluctant to cover mares - could this have affected his overall temperament??? I did witness this but I must say I have never known Hadier "personally", but I am surprised he has a suspect temperament with those beautiful eyes.
Carla, xx. |
Edited by - Tahir on 14 Nov 2006 9:24:19 PM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 9:29:35 PM
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| Have just checked my stud books and the spelling is "Hadeir" (Ralvon Elijah x Nimet), so are we all talking about the same horse?? |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 9:46:18 PM
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Nimlat, Marie Molly, anc Carla,
Hedier's temperament issues sound clearly man-made. His pedigree says he should be a wonderful stallion and a great breeding stallion and unless a major hiccup has occurred physically or mentally, would remain a very sweet, kind horse.
I visited Tollard in the early '80's. Ralvon Elijah was a stunningly beautiful stallion-looking more like the idealized version of 'Flame' featured in the Black Stallion books-mane flying and virtually faultless looking...and he appeared to be a handful...initially can't remember if it were Mr. Pitt-Rivers or who handling him but it was a male and the horse was definitely not happy about it...Then a young woman came up and took over and the rapport was incredible to behold...The anger left the stallion's eyes and he was totally besotted by her...So I wouldn't be at all surprised to read it is that the Elijah line is one that favors one person or family and can be a handful with all others.
Don't forget these horses are excruciatingly intelligent, and bred for thousands of years to be loyal to one person and maybe that person's family...No others because a horse easily approached is easily stolen. In that regard there are a goodly number of Arabians that still have that trait surface reminding one of the personality of a protective service German Shepard!
Mike would love it if Anne could post a picture...
Kash,
ER...Am not sure what you mean, "What would he bring"? To my eye NK Hafid Jamil is one of the most beautiful Arabians around of the most extraordinary delicate quality...He could be too delicately beautiful I think for some Egyptian lines but oh my what he could do with a gorgeous, big powerful moving mare kind of boggles the mind...Of course my idea of perfection is indeed something of amazing athletic ability but that is so beautiful could make World Champion. Think you could breed that with your girl in a walk!
Sorry to be general, Kash, the lines I breed are a mix of the best of Crabbet with Davenport, Spanish/Egyptian and Polish-in other words All American bloodlines but a couple of my horses have had their origins in the UK. |
Edited by - Egbert on 14 Nov 2006 9:49:22 PM |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 11:16:06 PM
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I think you must be right about Hadeir's temperament being man-made, he always appeared to be the perfect "gent" on the many occasions we met in the show ring. He always appeared to be tractable and submissive as opposed to arrogant and dominant. Perhaps he wasn't with his perfect human "partner" when he displayed these aggressive traits???
Kash, your mare is adorable, you must be so proud. NK Hafid Jamil sounds good to me - WOW!!!
Carla, xx. |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 06:37:31 AM
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I have always been under the impression that Hadeir's problems were manmade. I am sure most of the temperament problems in any animal who is kept by humans could be traced to 'human error'. I have seen it in all recued dogs, cats and horses and I have rescued a few.
One can overcome these to a certain extent must always be aware of them. |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 12:01:33 PM
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Such a shame why should these wonderful animals put up with us when they have been badly abused , mostly though ignorence , but sometimes though wicked malice I am not saying this happened to Hadier, I am sure he was owned by caring people although I dont know who bred him or much about his history, but I bet he wasnt born with a bad temperament, I truly believe there is no such thing as a bad animal, ( plenty of bad people though) |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 12:55:53 PM
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In all my years around horses, I've seen two stallions and one mare ( a daughter of one of the stallions) that were dangerous. Stallion A was a Thoroughbred, enormous as a yearling and one that the owners tried to give me because upon a visit to the particular ranch, the horse was totally smitten...but from day of birth he behaved weirdly and was dangerous to handle. The reason was that they felt he was brand damaged at birth by being in the womb possibly too long.
The second horse, B, was the son of a US National Champion, excruciatingly beautiful so was shown from his first year. But when he came to the stallion station he was incredibly dangerous: he would behave as if perfectly sweet and friendly and the next minute he was on the attack for no apparent provocation. They brought in a daughter of B that was so beautiful I offered for her immediately. The owner of the stallion station warned me off saying she behaved oddly and I should come over and spend time with her, which I did. One minute she was sweet as can be...and the next she did the same identical thing as her dad, ears suddenly flattened, head snaking around, teeth bared and then trying to remove any part of your anatomy she could connect with. Now she was handled quietly daily, brought in and out from pasture...Not in any training program. Needless to say I didn't buy her.
Now I had accidentally witnessed Stallion B's sire, who was to become US National Champ...try to kill three handlers at his trainer's barn...They were leading him back to his stall with three pvc pipes with the lead ropes passed through the center of each 10 ft pipe. This way they could keep him off of them as he was rearing and striking, teeth bared, ears flattened. As they led him into his stall I didn't see what happened but apparently he connected with one of the three handlers as there was terrible human's shriek of pain and terror... When the trainer finally arrived on the scene, he pretended that the behavior was normal for a 'great halter stallion' such as this lunatic! Unimaginable. ironically, his owner describes him as a sweet stallion but I am convinced that the stallion was born that way after seeing his son and granddaughter. I have seen a handful of his other offspring, one I know personally who is truly incredibly kind and loving...but am very suspicious of the line. But three individuals is not sufficient for a genuine study but sure makes me exercise caution when around those bloodlines. |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 1:19:45 PM
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Wow! that has put me in a different frame of mind then apart from one foal I bred who came at me gums knashing and feet flying just hours after he was born I have yet to see an inherited bad temperament first hand and I always thought I had an answer for his temperament anyway, but of course I think it quiet rare in arabs. perhaps that line should not be bred from if it is seen more than once? my foal was out of Minuette but by a different stallion to mine. he went on to be a ridden gelding and a good one at that ! |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 1:52:06 PM
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Lynda,
You are right...genuinely bad temperaments are rare and I don't think they should be bred from considering how in bred our lines are over the centuries. However, my friend's stallion, another son of the National Champion, is kindness personified...Not in the Carmargue league and he has sired a number of very successful babies who have never shown that rotten temperament! So I would not use a stallion exhibiting 'iffy' behavior from birth but if there is a son around who is a doll...perhaps the 'rotten temper' gene skipped him? |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 3:41:42 PM
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The only horse I have come across with a genuinely nasty temperament was, luckily not an arab. I used to keep Zeyn at a livery yard when he was 4, there was also a 4yrs Welsh Sec D stallion and a 3yrs Welsh Sec C colt owned by other people. As there was limited turn out, the boys took in turns to go out in their field. The Sec C had earned himself the honour of being "difficult to handle". I knew who bred him and handled him in his earlier years so the temperament was definitely not man made. It was Zeyn's turn to go out that afternoon, so I took a friend with me to catch the Sec C, she was armed with a whip and I had the bridle. Sec C came trotting over with his ears forward so I held up the bridle ready for him to put his head into (he was never any trouble to catch). At the last minute he shot his head through the bridle and grabbed my upper left arm. He then proceeded to shake me up and down like a rag doll dragging me at least 50 feet. My friend was bashing him over the head in an attempt to make him let go. Luckily I managed to hook my arm around a fence post and his teeth slid off. My friend and I had to duck under the fence because he was about to come back for another go. I travelled to hospital for the only time ever in an Ambulance, the medics were worried because I went into shock. It took 3 months for the nerves in my arm to grow back, my limp wrist was a bit of a "party piece".
Needless the say the colt was gelded the following week, but that unfortunately did not change his temperament, he was pts at 5. |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 5:13:45 PM
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OMG how scarey, I would not keep a horse with that sort of temperament no matter how much I loved them, they are dangerous to be around  ,I am surprised he lived to the age of 5! someone must have loved him very much . |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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anne
Gold Member
England
877 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 7:59:19 PM
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Sorry will have to make this brief
Egbert thank you for looking at Taraneh and yes your discription of her is spot on. except the taking for granted bit she is so nosey and just loves being around you and generally getting in the way.
I have no idea which stallion to get for Taraneh June Alexander recommended Ansata Alghazzali who sadly died earlier this year and I have no idea about breeding or two be honest what makes a good or bad match I have only been to one arab show and would not know what to look for in a stallion other than a good temperament and something that in my eyes just looked nice. I would like a straight egyptian stallion and I would be looking to put her in foal in about 2/3 years time the resulting foal for me to keep as a riding horse I am not interested in showing. I know MinHe has seen Taraneh and have pasted her comments below.
Anne, I have seen Taraneh on several occasions and also know/knew her dam & granddam. Unfortunately, although I can remember liking Taraneh's head, I can't recall the rest of her in detail, as June had several grey fillies around that time and they were always out together!
June was a great believer in the 'grandparent theory' - ie, that the parents of the parents should be studied closely as their characteristics are more likely to emerge in a future foal - and I have to say, she was right more often than not! As Taraneh's mother was somewhat short in the neck, I would suggest you look for a stallion that not only has a good length of neck but also a nice arch to it, and clean underneath. Also you should look for one that has a good back end, as EH Gasira had the rather short and steep croup typical of a lot of Gharib offspring.
No doubt Mike will have some suggestions as to individual horses - I have to confess, seeing so many SEs that are lacking in good fronts put me off these lines some years back (although I was one of the early enthusiasts), so I have not been studying recent horses as closely as perhaps I should.
I do know June went to look at Joan Woodward's new boy, and was planning to visit Annette Hedley to look at her recent import shortly before she died, if that is any help as to her thoughts on her next move for her SE lines.
Keren
Mike apparently she was a mottled brown colour when born (photos hopefully to follow)
I have hopefully posted some photo below(not that good at this tech stuff)
head photos taken 2006 aged 5
photo below taken 2005 aged 4
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..................................................................... Photo by David Evans |
Edited by - anne on 15 Nov 2006 9:38:47 PM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 11:14:01 PM
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| Hmmmm..Taraneh. Hmmm...lovely mare and would suspect from those pictures that she was born bay...Will be curious to see what Mike thinks. Really think you should look at NK Hafid Jamil and will email you a site with some pictures of Jamil on them. I don't know if he stands to the public but he is imcomparable... For an outcross I'd breed her to either Arazi, his son or the Inass son, G Iridis. The nick of the Carmargues with Egyptian blood has been excellent, e.g., Charismma. |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 11:21:26 PM
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If the choice of sire for Taraneh was up to me, which of course it isn't  and assuming that the resulting foal was to be SE, then I would play to the strengths in her pedigree (Shahloul, Sid Abouhom, Anter & Bint Radia) and avoid Shaikh Al Badi descendants since Taraneh has plenty of that blood (in effect 3 crosses), I would also avoid heavy Morafic/Moniet El Nefous breeding for the same reason, (two crosses to The Egyptian Prince is plenty and more of the same won't add anything positive to the mix). The same is true of recent Ansata breeding as it is as heavily dependant on multiple crosses to the same Morafic/Moniet mix as those examples already given.
In short Shahloul + Sid Abouhom + Bint Radia + Anter, with little or no Morafic, a line or two to Ibn Galal would be good for overall type especially if you can get it without any crosses (or very few) to Ansata. If you feel that you really must have some Ansata breeding then I would plump for the German horse M'Sharin with the Italian horse Shahil a close 2nd. If and only if she has exceptionally good legs, former world champion Hadidi would be interesting. Since you have plenty of time to make up your mind, I would urge you to go out and look and decide what you like.
As an alternative, find a good, Russian, English or Polish sire and use him! The only proviso I would add, would be to avoid Padron's Psyche breeding, not that I have anything against this blood (before I get assasinated!) but to my way of thinking, Padron's Psyche + Ibn Morafic wouldn't be the greatest idea since sliced bread
Mike |
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Tail Female Line....?
