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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 02:06:54 AM
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Kate,
The Warda line was acquired by the Russians from France-Pompadour Stud...State Stud? I've very little knowledge of the French horses...except for their being bred for extreme speed and even that could be wrong. My suggestion is to contact Pompadour if it is still in existence and see if they have any records on Warda's (1821) origins, strain, etc.
In re books: They skirt around the families and strains but do give some details: The Polish Arabian Horse Families by Britta Fahlgren; The Classic Arabian Horse by Forbis; The Crabbet Arabian Stud by Archer Covey and Pearson. Also am trying to write a guide to the strains.
Marie
Honest, don't know him personally but he has enough interesting and FUN characters in his pedigree without the ones to tone him down...that automatically figured his attitude was "I know best, DARN IT!" Were you to throw in some Bright Shadow within 3 generations-he'd have a sense of humor...(Double BS stallions love to tease scaredy cats for example!-I know I've had one!). |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 11:45:47 AM
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Hi Egbert, Mike, Keren, Jane, and all the other knowledgable Aliners
I would love to pick your brains on two damlines in which I have a special interest. One is the damline of Mammona / Krucica / Sahara, especially through Neposeda. What did the outcross to the Crabbet lines (Nasra + Rissalma) add and in particular, what were the fundamental qualities that characterised the original Polish damline?
The second damline I've been pondering is the Bint Helwa / Ghazieh line through Nasam. Gayza, the granddam of Nasam was imported to England from the US, but was in reality entirely of Crabbet stock. To that was added Shihab and Jellaby - any thoughts on them?
I know that this damline was used on Horsey Island but would love to know of other breeders who have used this line.
I just want to add that I SO appreciate this thread - it is educational, thought provoking, and fun!
Oh, and Mike - the best of luck with your move to Ireland - I hope you get a fantastic life there. Wishing you all the best!!
Anne |
     
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
Edited by - Anfi on 05 Oct 2006 11:46:57 AM |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 1:29:23 PM
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Originally posted by AnfiHi Egbert, Mike, Keren, Jane, and all the other knowledgable Aliners I would love to pick your brains on two damlines in which I have a special interest. One is the damline of Mammona / Krucica / Sahara, especially through Neposeda. What did the outcross to the Crabbet lines (Nasra + Rissalma) add and in particular, what were the fundamental qualities that characterised the original Polish damline? The second damline I've been pondering is the Bint Helwa / Ghazieh line through Nasam. Gayza, the granddam of Nasam was imported to England from the US, but was in reality entirely of Crabbet stock. To that was added Shihab and Jellaby - any thoughts on them? I know that this damline was used on Horsey Island but would love to know of other breeders who have used this line. I just want to add that I SO appreciate this thread - it is educational, thought provoking, and fun! Oh, and Mike - the best of luck with your move to Ireland - I hope you get a fantastic life there. Wishing you all the best!! Anne
Off the top of my head - I think Jellaby was owned by Reginald Summerhayes, so he must have been quite an exceptionally well put-together horse, as well as a top-class ride.
Keren |
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sue
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
169 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2006 : 10:32:39 PM
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Hi Anne, If there were only one description of Mammona it would be 'strength', despite the fact that in Russian Mammona means 'treasure'. But without the former she would never have been the latter. As a baby she completed the 1000 mile march from Poland to Tersk beside her dam, Krucica, and went on to foal out some of the greatest Russians of all time-18 in all, 6 fillies and 12 stallions (Pomeranets her best known son with her daughters being simply outstanding-Nomenklatura, Monopolia, Metropolia, Malpia, Magnolia). She was in all liklihood an intelligent and kindly mare as well...but we'll only know that through her descendants. With her sire being Ofir...we know that Kuhailan Haifi added that desert hardiness, intelligence and compact wiriness. She was not beautiful but she was very well built judging by the one available photograph...
Naseem added beauty, kindness and power, Rissalma through Priboj added more structure, beauty and color and together - exotic...Neposeda by Priboj (Piolun x Rissalma) and out of Nomenclatura (Naseem x Mammona), who combines all three was a beautiful mare. The combination of the three is also typically seen in Muscat with Ofir doubled. Compared to Mammona her granddam, Neoposeda was everything best about her granddam plus considerable beauty, a chestnut, lovely head, small shapely ears, wonderully clean and well set on neck, balanced with short back, clean all the way round. And when bred to Aswan the result was *Nariadnaia. When Nomenklatura was doubled with Neposeda...*Nariadni was the result and with his dam *Nariadnaia-two of THE most beautiful horses I've ever seen in my life. I happened to see them with my vet and whilst he was more bowled over by *Muscat (am inclined to say he had to be the male counter part to Neposeda with that extra addition of Ofir-greater intelligence) who was also there...he felt that *Nariadnaia was the most beautiful Arabian he ever saw anywhere...and the structural quality of the three simply blew him away. He had been a racetrack vet after graduating from vet school and was a stickler about correct conformation...especially in terms of breeding-on these creatures. For him to be so impressed was saying something.
Mammona/Sahara are Kuhailan Mimri/Moradi who according to Homer Davenport were of the 'listening horse' strain...first to give warning when hearing approaching hoofbeats far across the desert sands....
Gayza....Well gotta tell you, I think this is the most important dam line to return to the UK. Except for Rodan-whose desert blood is doubled in her pedigree and Bazrah she is virtually entirely Ali Pasha Sherif/Abbas Pasha bloodlines. Her great granddam Bint Helwa was the bravest mare in the eyes of Wilfrid Blunt-not given to any sentiment whatsoever-he ever knew and when she shattered her leg insisted that she be saved as she had limped back on it nearly 5 miles to the stud. When Carmargue, whose tail female line is via Gayza to Bint Helwa nearly died in Spain, and THREE insurance company vets said he had to euthanized, because he wouldn't go down-despite raging fever and not taking in any water...Diego Mendez opted to sleep in his stall every night to ensure the great stallions i v's stayed in place! Later Don Diego would tell me in an interview that Carmargue was the greatest most courageous stallion he ever knew. And not only did he come back but within three months, he went to the Salon Du Cheval and blew away the competition in the in the preliminary classes and then went on to win the Senior World Championship title with the highest scores in the history of the Salon/World Championships! Kind, incredibly loving/affectionate, with the most beautiful eyes imaginable-these Bint Helwa line horses own your heart. Cam was simply incredibly charismatic... but all horses of that dam line that I've known are the same way. I've a double Bint Helwa Carmargue daughter who is simply awesome sadly, I've never been able to get her in foal and she is 18 this year..but am going to try with fingers crossed an embryo transfer! Another great example of the Gayza dam line is Mustaphah. Gayza was triple Bint Helwa, by the way, which may explain why the horses coming through this line are so very very extraordinary! Bint Helwa was a Seglawi Jidran of the highest quality.
Hannah,
Your Kimm must have been very similar in terms of personality to *Carmargue as they shared the same tail female - Bint Helwa-and almost as intensely with Kimm having two lines via Gara. Of the Seglawi Jedran strain, Kimm was predominately Egyptian/Crabbet...a combination of many of the most superb lines so would suspect that not only was he very loving and sweet but there would have been an exotic quality about him... a beautiful bay. You must miss him very much.
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Edited by - Egbert on 05 Oct 2006 10:35:29 PM |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2006 : 12:17:48 AM
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Keren, Egbert
Thank you both!
Your input is very much appreciated!!!
The worst/best part about this thread is that the more you find out, the more questions arise
How has the Gayza damline bred on in England apart from Carmargue? Is it widely used or not so common?
What would you expect from a combination of the two damlines from my original question? What lines would you suggest would combine well with such horses? This horse is owned by a friend of mine, but I hope to be able to change that in time
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pacifica8
Again - thank you in advance - your input is always brilliant!
Anne |
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
Edited by - Anfi on 06 Oct 2006 12:18:39 AM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2006 : 01:19:21 AM
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Hi Anne,
It is fairly widely used judging by the datasource records ( you can actually access the datasource with a credit card...and the records are literally thousands of horses tracing to Gayza...one day is $9.95 http://www.arabdatasource.com/ ) and seems to nick well just about anywhere you want to use it. Again, the old Blunt rule was Rodania strain on Seglawi Strain or vice versa is about the best cross. Also from what I've seen, the best nicks are Crabbet related, Russian, certain Polish lines carrying Naseem blood, and nearly any Spanish and Egyptian. Gayza was just a superb mare.
I'd guess that Pacifica is very lovely, with a lot of scope and with her pedigree you could breed her any way you wanted. I'd be inclined to breed her to anything with Carmargue, Kubinec, any of the Al Waha stallions, Carr horses, Ibreez at Georgian Arabians would be a lot of fun....as would anything at Cullinghurst...Bet her eyes grab the heart and squeeze....? |
Edited by - Egbert on 06 Oct 2006 01:23:41 AM |
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Marie-Molly
Gold Member
United Kingdom
929 Posts |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
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Anfi
Gold Member
Denmark
1195 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2006 : 8:29:44 PM
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Hello Egbert,
Thanks a lot for your input - as always constructive and spot on. She does have lovely eyes - that comes especially from her sire Pacific. (See link)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23462550@N00/262425967/?#comment72157594315652995
Speaking of the Cullinghursts Pacifia has had a foal by the sadly deceased Russian stallion Abhat (Drug x Abhaziia) who was a ½ brother to Adres. The colt has been sold to an experienced endurance rider who will hopefully bring him on during the next years.
I have wondered myself about the Naziri sireline - I think that the Naziri horses have something special that I'd love to capture. G Iridis (who also carries a line to Nasam/Gayza) would be one of my choices if I were located in GB, which unfortunately I'm not
A different appealing sire I've pondered is Final Shadow.
Sigh... just dreaming so far
Anne |
I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 07:36:57 AM
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Anne,
Thanks for the link. Hope you can visit next summer to see some of the Carmargues...Hope people noticed that yet another Cam link was at Hoys via Aja Ben Rajah....Would love to see a picture of him if someone can post one....That is a cross that really fascinates...
Pauline,
Wowee! Love that pedigree...it is very intriguing and suggests a mare of rare beauty, smooth, big brown eyes, lovely head, overall quite feminine but remarkably balanced and athletic as well. Powerful hocks. A Kuhailan Rodania, but with an extra degree of refinement...This is a mare that would be sooooo much fun to breed! Aja Ben Rajah would be fun as would G Iridis...But in reality she is another one of those mares you could probably cover with a Missouri mule and have a great result! What fun!
Marie,
Interesting pedigrees...Zarkela will be kind of rounded all over...pretty head with a large jowl, big eyes, dished face, honest,personable and affectionate...gaily carried tail, and surprisingly elegant despite a slightly dippy back....Probably fun to ride, too! She is a Seglawi Jedran tracing to Bint Helwa. Is she quite a dark bay?
Summerstorm, on the other hand, would be the athlete, robust, great bone, slightly aloof, but pays attention to her owner; compared to Zarkela, almost a TB in appearance, attractive, straight head, and would imagine if she is shown she would be a hunter over fences type, dressage mare, maybe even raced ( ? )...very strong...Kuhailan Rodania. Endurance perhaps?
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 05:36:14 AM
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Pauline,
What do you mean tell you more about the pedigree? You have one of the best bred mares in the UK basis the pedigree...don't think I could be much clearer. If she has been abandoned and in need of rescue....am appalled. Like leaving Silver Fire in need of rescue...postively sick. The blood is of predominately Kirch breeding...Bright Gleam, who is doubled, has been considered a superb dam and figured as the granddam of a number of nice horses including Aboud! Guesstimate of more than 3/4's Crabbet/GSB + Polish.
Mydass is a bit of a mishmosh with a superb sire line to Nazeer via Mushaphah; mid pedigree is Egyptian-old and new so the horse is probably more athletic than beauty and the dam line is of the Kuhailan Moradi strain and Khizil Kum looks to be pure Lindsay/Stocking Farms lines. My guess this would not have been a great breeding animal so much as a fun ride. Probaby 50% Egyptian, better than 1/4 Crabbet (because of all the Crabbet blood in the Egyptian side and 1/4 real old Polish on the dam line!
Dainty Dancer looks to be a pretty, fun kind of horse. Again, 1/4 Polish on the bottom of the pedigree going back to to great old Lindsay stock for the most part, and the Polish found on the sire lines...looks to have been smart outcrossing on some lovely Crabbet blood...for a bit more scope...Dancer overall should be fun, pretty and a bit of an athlete...very nice all around kind of mare to have in the backyard...and a bit over 50% Crabbet/old English.
But, and I can't emphasize this enough...percentages are very very misleading. What is in play is the way the horse (s ) looks! Whatever the horse shows physically, says volumes about what genes and from whence they came are at stake. 'What you see is what you get (in the genes).'
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Edited by - Egbert on 08 Oct 2006 11:54:56 AM |
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Vygoda
Platinum Member
United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 07:32:46 AM
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Hi Egbert,
Your assessment of Summerstorm mentioned above, is spot on . She was bred at Al Waha Stud by Kathy.
If this is the correct mare I am thinking of, she had an excellent bay filly by Simeon Sadir (bred in Australia (Imperial Madaar x Simeon Shirli)) last year with much more type than her dam (Sadir has an excellent endurance record himself by the way as well as National Championships in the showring in New Zealand).
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 08:53:38 AM
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| Thanks, Jane! Oh it would be fun to see pictures of some of these horses. Bet Summerstorm is minimally 15 h, too! |
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C.J.
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 11:29:48 AM
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Bright Gleam and Al Malika were the subject of a large bronze by Pamela du Boulay in 1974. I can post a photo if anyone wants to see it.
Fascinating thread by the way!
Caroline |
"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."
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Edited by - C.J. on 08 Oct 2006 11:32:26 AM |
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Egbert
Gold Member
USA
1051 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 11:49:01 AM
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Caroline,
Would you please? Such a picture of Bright Gleam might help to explain why the above 'rescue mare' (what a tragedy and how fortunate that Pauline has rescued her!) is so very very important. Thank you so much! I've one of du Boulay's sculptures in porcelain, too...but of a lovely stallion with a golden saddle...The ideal Arabian. |
Edited by - Egbert on 08 Oct 2006 11:49:58 AM |
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kofihorse
Bronze Member
241 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 1:16:29 PM
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Egbert, I am just loving reading your descriptions of people's horses and their pedigrees. I posted a picture of my Kofi (on page 6 of this thread) but I don't know how to get the link up to his page on allbreedpedigree - he's listed there under his "proper" name of Alpha Laval.I know that you must be a very busy person with all these enquiries but could you possibly find time to look at his pedigree and tell me what you think?
I am very curious what you think as all I could go on when he died was to set out to find another boy with similar breeding, thinking that therefore I would have a chance fo finding another friend as nice as he was. My new boy is MAS Khan El Ajuz but there are differences in their breeding although they do have a lot in common and I will be fascinated to find out why I like them both and what it is in their backgrounds that has appealed to my eye.
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 10:33:11 PM
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Egbert,
Many Thanks.
All my horses are Endurance horses.
Dainty is small (14hh) neat,pretty Very dainty and she dances with her front feet.She is very athletic.
Mydass has been shown as a youngster and did very well.He is stocky in build,he to is athletic but with very good confirmation.He is a very handsome chap.
Crystal has never been shown and her legs are very marked,scard so I will proberly not show her, as for breeding from her my interest is not in breeding but in riding and she has proved to be good at the sport I do.
I just feel so honourd to now own this Mare.
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
Edited by - Pauline on 09 Oct 2006 08:47:59 AM |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2006 : 10:43:28 PM
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Vygoda
Summerstorm was bred at the Al Waha Stud, but as far as I know has never bred a foal herself.She was bought by an endurance friend (Andrea)and then another friend bought her from Andrea.
Pauline
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Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
Edited by - Pauline on 09 Oct 2006 08:54:20 AM |
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Kathy1
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
85 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 12:50:34 PM
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Hi, we sold two Dantist mares at the same time and Vygoda has got them mixed up on the foaling info. Storm left here as a maiden mare. Otherwise the descriptions by both Egbert and Vygoda were absolutely spot on.
Kathy |
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karenfullbrook
Bronze Member
England
121 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 4:20:58 PM
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Summerstorm, on the other hand, would be the athlete, robust, great bone, slightly aloof, but pays attention to her owner; compared to Zarkela, almost a TB in appearance, attractive, straight head, and would imagine if she is shown she would be a hunter over fences type, dressage mare, maybe even raced ( ? )...very strong...Kuhailan Rodania. Endurance perhaps?
Hi, I now own Summerstorm. She came to me in mid March. You are spot on with your description. Looks like an elegant steeplechaser!
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karenfullbrook
Bronze Member
England
121 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2006 : 4:28:15 PM
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Interesting pedigrees...Zarkela will be kind of rounded all over...pretty head with a large jowl, big eyes, dished face, honest,personable and affectionate...gaily carried tail, and surprisingly elegant despite a slightly dippy back....Probably fun to ride, too! She is a Seglawi Jedran tracing to Bint Helwa. Is she quite a dark bay?
This one is a difference kettle of fish! Now 18-"rescued" at rising 6 emaciated she is rather different from your expectations. Yes to: big eyes, honest, personable, tail carriage and elegant. GREAT to ride and conker coloured bay most of the time.
No to: dished face, large jowl and definately not got a dippy back. Loves endurance riding.
Her main characteristic seems to come through the "Z" line back to Zarossa-in that like many of these 'z' mares she is a one person horse-as is her daughter (Zhelah-1st horse in my signature at 18 months old) by Mustaphah-whom I gave away 'cause she picked her owner and it was not me!
Just a quick thank you for all the time you put into giving us Arabian lovers more information on our " half ton babies". |
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Tail Female Line....?
