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SarahA
Silver Member
476 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 01:00:46 AM
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| Oh what a good thread. I would have to agree with everyone that i personally dont think the premium scheme is promoted very well at all, the information is difficult to find. The ahs web site is a joke and doesnt tell you much about the stallions or the scheme and i had to contact a stallion owner to find out about it. And thats someone that already knows they want to use an arab, and knows the site exists. What about all the others out there? A horse and hound advert cant be that much, surely? And as so many of you have already said, your paying £200. Which is extortion by the way, but then again........ arent all the ahs charges? |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 09:15:06 AM
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sorry but I think it is a shambles. The AHS require a great deal of information from stallions aged 12 and over before awarding premium status. i had the privilege of reading the pack prepared by Margaret when Arioso got his premium status, page after page of his limited number of offsprings amazing achievments in both Arab and open competition, including eventing.
Non of this - that the AHS had - is ever available for the interested public to find.
proof of the pudding is that Ariosos son was awarded premium status last year after successfully competing the NASTA tests.
Mare grading is a farce. How many people want the faff of taking a mare to a specific venue to be 'judged' as suitable to recieve a premium when it costs more than the premium is worth!
by the way, i always put my money where my mouth is and if all premium stallion and mareowners wanted me to collate their horses achievemtns am willing to do it for publication if we can get the necesary costs - maybe an e book on disc is the cheapest alternative? |
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 10:07:19 AM
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Yes a whole page advert in horse and hound can cost that much. Having paid for advertising last year in Your Horse, Horse and Horse and Rider I know.
A full page in above magazines costs about £1500 plus VAT. Price varies a bit and I assume Horse and Hound costs more I did inquire early last year and ran away and hid when told price.
Dot |
Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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Hazel Cornes
Silver Member
United Kingdom
288 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 10:48:53 AM
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NED will eventually supply all affiliated performance reports, but of course a user has to have "heard of an equine" to source the info. I understand that the AHS has now agreed to supply NED with pedigree details which in my case will show a mare with performance progeny.
The Premium Scheme and Performance Results are a huge and should be a very important aspect of the AHS, in fact any society, so with some liaison with the other Equine Groups this could be very beneficial for the AHS, breeders and the arab horse as a whole.
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Edited by - Hazel Cornes on 04 Feb 2009 10:50:45 AM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 11:00:56 AM
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SarahA Dot Patww.....Fanstastic......input input input. We really appreciate your comments.......once and for all, the AHS MUST SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE.....and take ACTION, to rectify this sad state of affairs regarding the Premium Scheme  Members and owners of Premium Stallions, are FED UP with weak excuses and inaction!!!
Regarding the Double Page Premium Scheme Advert which used to annually appear in the Horse & Hound (Sports Horse Issue),really MUST be reinstated as this magazine has enormous readership accross all equine disiplines.
The cost is irrelevent. The AHS owe it to Members, to promote the Premium Scheme!! Each Stallion owner was asked for £200 per Premium Stallion.....This gave a small pic and a paragraph, for info. I Think a two page advert, may be in the region of £3000 + VAT So....on the basis of twenty stallion owners, input would be £4000, how can the AHS, use the excuse "lack of funding".
How often do Members hear this cry.....we are sick of it!! Where is the Membership income going?
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 04 Feb 2009 5:40:42 PM |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 5:50:55 PM
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I would dearly love a 'proper' breakdown of the AHS finances. All the 'events' under the AHS banner are run by volunteers on a cover their costs basis, as is the magazine, has to be covered by advertising revenue before it is published, and premium stallion owners paying for the adverts covers that too. Actual premiums awarded to mares was supported by I think the horse race betting levy board, was talk of finding it from somewhere else but at the time was so disillusioned did not follow it.
We are also not given information on the take up of the premiums it was a max of 6 per year per stallion, at £200 per foal registered payable on registration of the foal.
The DNA costs etc are higher than the actual charge so profit there, I just don't see whee the AHS revenue is going.
Lack of information over and over again.
Our proven performance horses do need the public profile raising to counteract the poor image the in-hand scene has generated of recent years.
The Arab and its crosses should be superb athletes, and it is reprehensible that the mechanism is in place to promote this and there is total failure to do so. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 6:31:45 PM
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Denmoor, as you are actively involved with the Premium Scheme, will you be sitting in at the meeting and putting AL`s comments, before the Committee ??
Am aware a Premium Scheme Meeting is convening some time in the near future.....but how long will it be, before Stallion owners are informed of the resulting outcome??.....knowing how slowly the AHS wheels of action turn.
Sorry to appear so cynical, but year upon year, upon year, of feeble excuses and lack of information, tend to eventually wear one down, and DISILLUSIONMENT sets in 
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 04 Feb 2009 10:33:24 PM |
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AJJ
Bronze Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 9:39:31 PM
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I would agree with all that Pat raises, it is really sad as I was a firm supporter of the AHS owning 4 pure breds but in recent years have been very disappionted with a number of aspects of the society which is very sad. We certainly do need to be celebrating and publicing some of the achievements of our pure breds, part breds and Anglo's.
I also have a German bred warblood who I have had graded with the Oldenburg stud from Germany at half the price of the AHS, I have also been graded at the BEF events last year and will proably opt to have our pure bred stallion graded by the BEF as a sport horse if things don't improve.
Amanda |
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Roseanne
Moderator
United Kingdom
6708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 9:58:59 PM
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I've been watching this with interest as we had two AHS premium NASTA tested stallions at the stud I was based at until recently.
I know things have been difficult for the AHS and I too have wondered if and when people will get to see/hear what the real finances and outlook are for the society, as it is central to all our ambitions with our Arabs.
The comparison of AJJ's experience with the Oldenburg socity in Germany rather puts it into perspective. The AHS was at some stage coerced/forced/compelled to become a charity which seems to put it into a difficult league to force transparency. One would hope the society would reveal any information to members and perhaps they will happily do so if requested? I haven't got any issues about premium status so I haven't asked...
But I do think DEFRA or whichever rural/agricultural/sporting body it needs to be, should have some facility to allow groups such as the AHS (or other breed societies) to become affiliated and supported, so the preservation of the bloodlines and sporting excellence that this country produces, can be promoted and given the wherewithal to be continued.
I have no more idea than anyone else what the AHS's finances and priorities are at the moment. It's going to be a very difficult time for everyone over the coming year or two; some will not survive.
Perhaps a new organisation should be established to promote Arab Premium stock - maybe affiliated to the AHS and with a grant from them - with the subscriptions you all talk about being put into a new pot for promotion purposes? |
Roseanne |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 2:33:30 PM
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The finances of the Premium Scheme are rather a complex issue and AL forum, is not I feel the right place for this discussion, however I agree that the members do have a right to know how the Premium Scheme is financed. There are
some serious misconceptions being posted here on line.
Babs R. I will be happy to draw attention to members questions and concerns at the meeting,the most appropriate way is for members to e.mail me, if they feel that I am worthy of their representation.
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 3:37:40 PM
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why are the finances too complicated for open discussion? they are under the auspices of charitable status and open to public accountability.
Any misconceptions are better put to rest earlier rather than later.
I think a meeting to discuss is a good idea, but one that is 'closed' to an invited few i do not think will generate the openness and radical input that might be needed to shake it out of its lethargy.
Not meant as any thing personal, but going on the historical inability of the AHS to take on board anything other than its own narrow pre-conceptions. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2009 : 4:12:19 PM
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well said patww.....why all the secrecy regarding the financing of the Premium Scheme. Denmore Dont think the need to E-Mail members `gripes` why not just print off these pages and present them at the meeting
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 05 Feb 2009 4:14:23 PM |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 12:52:20 PM
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| The Premium Scheme Sub Committee meeting is scheduled for Feb 12. weather permitting. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2009 : 2:27:13 PM
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Thanks for that  can`t come soon enough!! Can only hope, for a complete clarification of the whole set up, and forward plans to resolve Members disillusionment and the financial secrecy, of our antiquated Premium Scheme. Openness and information, very soon please
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 06 Feb 2009 2:28:23 PM |
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Jude
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 5:02:44 PM
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| I have always felt that the Premium scheme in its present form does not encourage people to use Arab/Anglo stallions on their mares. The old scheme, under which premium mare classes were held and for which any mare was eligible as long as she had been covered by a pure bred/anglo stallion, was a far more open way of encouraging the use of arab blood.The top mares in the class received premiums - I think they were £50-100, based on traditional judging in hand. There were also classes for Premium Scheme youngstock, which meant that the offspring of these premium mares were seen the following year. My old TB mare had several premiums during her lifetime and produced some very useful anglos (I am talking about 40 years ago here). I always thought it was a far better system and although I understand the reasons why it was changed, the current system is clearly not working as it should. |
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Chris James
Silver Member
United Kingdom
497 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2009 : 7:14:20 PM
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I don't remember when it changed? - but there was never any benefit for the AHS Premium mares. I always believed in grading and all my breeding mares earned Premium status in their own right - but it meant nothing!
Stallions could give premiums out to non-arab mares without any check - but my premium mares couldn't go to a TB stallion of my choice - and get a benefit. In fact I've argued this point at many AGM's in the past - till I gave up! I still don't see the benefit for Arab mares to be Premium listed.
Other breed societies give a mare a premium as an XX amount to be used against the stud fee for the stallion of their choice. So tell me what's happenening now that's new? |
Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 12:49:52 PM
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Jude, you only mention Purebred and Anglo Stallions, was that intentional or just an oversight.
Chris, Have you had a look at the Premium Scheme web site it will come up if you google, and gives an explanation of the scheme, I am not quite sure what makes you say the Premium Mares don't benefit,as they receive a premium from the AHS on registration of a foal by a AHS Premium Stallion. This is to encourage mare owners to use AHS Graded Performance Stallions
I would be interested to know which Societies you are referring to and would be grateful for any information on the subject
It does appear that our promotion may well be some of the problem. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 3:07:34 PM
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Some years ago....Early 1070`s,mares were invited to be assessed by a panel of AHS judges.........They were judged on conformation correctness of limbs and good action, and likely to produce competition foals.. The top three selected mares, each received a monetry Premium from the AHS and were awarded Premium status (at that time I think around £100 for Pure/Anglo/TB and £50 for Part Bred Arabs and mares of other breeds. Years later,and dependant on their own performances, likewise for stallions, but think the monetry premium was higher ??
The progeny of premium Mares and Stallions, were recorded as Premium stock.....and classes for them were held at AHS Nationals. The Premium Scheme classes for Anglo/PBA Youngstock, were well filled, as were the Anglo/PBA Sire Produce Family Groups. the BMPS classes ran until 1984 and the Sire Produce Family groups, until 1986. when in their wisdom, AHS decided to withdraw these classes from the Nationals Schedule....A BIG Mistake in MHO!!
The Premium Scheme was re-assessed and from there Mares covered by a premium stallion receive (Pure/Anglo/PBA) £200 and PBA/Others mare £100 upon registration of the foal, with the AHS, hopefully to encourage Mare owners to use the Premium Stallions.
Since the introduction of compulsary NASTA testing for all stallions, to gain their Premium Status,still it does not seem to have halted the slowly declining numbers in recorded foals. A very worrying situation  ......again, we ask WHAT IS THE ANSWER?? This thread has certainly brought about very healthy debate, two other current threads regarding Sports Horse Arabs/Anglos.PBA
Do Not agree that passing on the responsibility to the Premium Stallion owner, to approve up to six (more recently three) mares, to receive a Premium, is justifiable?? Not necessarily so, that all stallion owners, have the knowledge to make such a Judgement.
The Former Hunter Improvemnt Society (H.I.S.)and now known as Sports Horse (GB) knew how to run a Premium Scheme and to Promote their Premium Stallions. Monetry Premiums were awarded to winning Mares at Major HIS Shows. Think about (£150) to be used towards the stud fee of one of their HIS stallions. The Premium stallions were paid a good premium about £600 per season but think that was subject to the number of Mares covered and in foal??
Can remember how delighted we were, when at one of the Major H.I.S Shows, a homebred foal of our Anglo mare, won the Hunter foal class, beating the foal of Mrs Jeffs, Multi Supreme Champion H.I.S Premium thoroughbred mare, My Rougette (GSB) produced and shown by Den Thomas Our Anglo Mare stood second to My Rougette  IMAGINE the look on the Hunter Judges face, when we proudly proclaimed that Mare and Foal were Anglo Arabs
Apologies, I digress,....but speaking of the H.I.S, brought back the joyous memories of that wonderful day 
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk
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Edited by - BabsR on 09 Feb 2009 4:38:17 PM |
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Jude
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
81 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 4:26:01 PM
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| I believe that part of the reason the AHS stopped the old BMPS was that they either lost the funding from the Horse Racing Levy Board, or that the latter required re-jigging of the way that premiums were awarded. I remember standing up and voicing my concerns at the AHS AGM when this came up and I am sure it is partly to blame for the decline in AA/PBA numbers. As far as I can remember Partbred stallions were not included in the scheme but obviously the offspring of purebred and anglo stallions were registered as partbreds - the breeding of the mares was irrelevant. Funnily enough I have no recollection of any stallions being premium stallions at that time - apart from the HIS ones. Mare owners receiving a premium could use any registered purebred or anglo stallion and the premium was a sort of contribution towards the stud fee, but was paid to the mare-owner at the time it was awarded, rather than having to wait until the foal was registered. The youngstock classes for produce of premium mares encouraged people to register their foals with the AHS and to enter anglo/partbred classes as well. I do not think that the premium scheme in its present form does either of the above. |
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BabsR
Platinum Member
England
2790 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2009 : 7:46:20 PM
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Yes me too.........unsure the year when the Stallion Premium Scheme
was introduced, must be twelve years ago and was in existence, prior
to compulsary NASTA testing, before a stallion was awarded his Premium Status
Think there needs to be MUCH more emphasis on Premium Mares. The
Premium Stallions, obviously,Arab/Anglo/PBA, Mares can be of ANY breeding, who achieve success in a variety of Competition Disciplines at affiliated level
My own experience is that the foal is 60/70% more likely to favour it`s Dam. It is a very good stallion, who can consistently `stamp` himself, accross a wide variety of mares!! Therefore, let us give MORE, MUCH MORE incentive and encourage the proven competition (Show/Event,Dressage/BSJA/Race/Endurance)Mares, to use our Premium Stallions!!
Babs
www.SunrayAngloArabianStud.co.uk |
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Edited by - BabsR on 09 Feb 2009 12:07:52 PM |
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templars
Platinum Member
England
1852 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:35:30 AM
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That's really interesting Babs.
Taragun was recently graded and got her Premium. She was assessed by a panel of Sports Horse GB jusges and as a result of her scores, not only has she got her Arab Premium but she has also gone straight into the Head Stud Book of Sports Horse GB.
No-one from the AHS has contacted us to let us know she got her Premium - Sports Horse GB told us.
Since the assessment, we've had a lovely congratulatory letter from Sports Horse GB and explaining what her SHGB status means and how we can get cheaper stud fee to a SHGB stallion. From the AHS - nothing.
This is a pure bred mare who was made WAHO Horse of the Year, got SHGB grading and AHS grading all in the same year but no recognition at all from the AHS.
And as for NED - I think that as far as Arab Horses go, it is the biggest disappointment ever. The AHS has supplied minimal details so the records are not complete.
I have third generation home bred horses who have won at C shows but I can't access their records because "you are not the registered owner of this horse". I've contacted NED so many times that I'm fed up with it. I've offered to contact the AHS but been told that I can't.
Even our WAHO Horse of the Year horse cannot be linked to us.
No wonder people cannot promote the performance side of their horses recognition. Our own breed society works against us. I've never been overly critical of the AHS but I'm so fed up with the complete lack of recognition of anything that doesn't show.
I have some superb youngstock (yearlings to 3 year old) that are pure or part bred (not managed to breed that elusive Anglo yet) but I haven't even bothered to register them with the AHS. I bred them to perform. I know they will perform. I know their breeding (should do, I have their parents, grandparents and siblings).
When they perform - then I'll shout that they are Arab but until then, they are simply performance youngstock.
I'm heartily sick of the AHS not taking non showing stock seriously. I've paid for entry into the Stud book only for the entry not to be printed (but they never refunded the £60 I'd paid), I've paid money for transfer of a mare but they haven't sent the paperwork but kept the money.
I believe in the Arab and I will do everything I can to promote the breeding but I really can't be bothered to do it "offically" |
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Chris James
Silver Member
United Kingdom
497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:42:41 AM
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I perhaps didn't explain myself fully Denmoor, but I agree totally with BabsR.
The point I was trying to make was that AHS stallions who were awarded premiums could give those coverings to ANY mare regardless of breed or type - whereas AHS mares that had been awarded premiums HAD to visit AHS premium stallions, of which at that time there were very few performance AHS sires - so mare owners with Premiums were denied the choice to go to HIS/TB graded sires. Even though the mares had been awarded premiums in their own right, for their performance under saddle and for their winning progeny.
I still feel that quality mares are being ignored, considering that mares have far fewer foals than stallions. |
Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians |
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Chris James
Silver Member
United Kingdom
497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2009 : 11:50:11 AM
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Sorry Templars - I was posting at the same time!
I agree with you - especially about NED. I'm aware of a lot of people who have contacted NED about Arab info - and I have been led to believe that there has been a re-think and that maybe they will supply breeding info and updated details in the future.
It is rather embarrasing to have foals that are registered and passported with AHS and overstamped with say BSPA and yet it's the BSPA who have provided all the up-to-date info! |
Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians |
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