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emma
Gold Member
816 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 12:18:49 PM
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Firstlady- ive read several pieces in journals now that mention this about the foal taking characteristics of the host mum and not always displaying characterisitcs of their breed.
On a personal note ive known 2 horses both pure breds but one born as a result of ET and brought up by her host dam and the other born from its natural mother but then brought up by a foster mare. Both horses are less araby, for want of a better term, less expressive less arabness, not one s for flagging their tails etc.
So it certainly would be interesting for studies to be done on this. Having said that not all hand reared foals grow up to behave like humans and i also recall some lambs being reared by a dog where the lambs grew up to be sheep and not behaving like a dog. |
Emma
Fulmer House Arabians
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 12:35:23 PM
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Hi Lisa,
thanks for the interesting and balanced comments and correcting me on the super ovulation issue. I have to confess most of my knowledge in this area is in relation to humans and mice. Humans through drug trials and talking to my obs and Gyne Doctor sister and mice through work.
Dot |
Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 1:04:21 PM
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Sorry Dot I did not mean to 'correct' you  , it is just a little different in mares. I did in fact agree with all the points you made.
Cheers 
Lisa |
lisa |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 7:38:35 PM
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Hi Lisa,
you made some points so much better than I did
me "-personally think a ridden competiton mare is an ideal candidate to have a foal born by transfer, she has proved herself to be tough and sound. It also means an inferior mare is not being bred to produce another inferior foal."
you -" ET ....allows breeding from mares who are fantastic, busy career girls. Sound, brave, good tempered riding mares.
For myself...I have very serious moral qualms about some of the repro work I do, not because it is invasive but because so many brood mares have that status ( I am NOT particularly talking Arabs here)
because they are , due to conformation or character faults, unsuitable for riding (accidentally injured mares excepted). So there I am helping these mares reproduce their faults.."
The mares that are not suitable for riding could be fantastic mums to take the donor eggs from conformationally sound performance mares so they can carry on with their careers. But as we all know, many are bred because they cant do anything else. Far better they carried a foal that has some genetic potential rather than the next slab of meat on a butchers hook.
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 7:38:46 PM
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I am going down the ET route with one of my mares. She has produced me 3 foals naturally, all stunning. The problem she has is she had a bad foaling with the first (just one of those things not a genetic fault), which the vets assured me was bad luck and would not happen again. Her second foaling was even worse, this time explained by vets as 'from damage of the first foaling' (even though they said there wouldnt be). I left her 3 years and after months of soul searching decided to give it one more go. The vets felt she had had plenty of time to recover and scans/examinations showed no problem. BUT, this year she had a gorgeous filly, and had slight problems with foaling. I could not and would not go through that heartache and worry again, and would never risk her life. So this is the way I shall go. I have 3 mares lined up as recipients and before someone leaps up and down I am only going for ONE foal, just have three recipients in the hope one of them is ready!! All three of my recipients are arabs, and shell foals like peas!
As a p.s. if anyone wants to know why I would go to all the trouble please look at the first pic of my signature, this is her 2008 filly |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
Edited by - Pashon2001 on 28 Oct 2008 7:40:30 PM |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 8:15:46 PM
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Pat, You made the point perfectly well in one sentence, no need for all my rambling... I put it down to being Welsh!
Good point Debbie too.
Lisa |
lisa |
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 8:43:25 PM
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Interesting debate. Personally I think that only one ET per mare per year should be allowed. I just don't like the thought of stunning mares like Pianissima being used as "foalie farms"; sorry but it just seems wrong to me. If only one registered foal was allowed then Pianissima would probably have been allowed to have her own baby. I will be very interested to see what her foals are like!
I am a biochemist so am not against modern technology, just feel that we all have to draw our own line somewhere and I hate to see animals being exploited. I am not a vegetarian and I do eat meat but won't eat veal as I disagree with how it is produced etc. Others will disagree with me as they are vegetarian. I couldn't kill an animal to eat but if someone else does the dastardly deed I am quite happy to make a meal of it.
Donna, you are doing ET for all the right reasons and I have no problem with that. It is the likes of Pianissima that I disagree with. Sorry to have to use her as as an example but she is the one we all know about and I find that very sad.
Barbara |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 8:52:52 PM
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I agree Barbara. I believe Pianissima has produced 5 foals on her first year. Times that by 20+ years, and we could have lots of little Pianists on every street corner, along with the heaps of QR Marcs lol!!!
I did contact the AHS re how many foals were allowed, and apparentley it is 'unlimited'. The only reason I asked was if I was ever in the position of producing two foals from this mare 'by accident' if you get what I mean (one mare scanned not in foal then later proven to be) and my position with registration if this slim possibility happened.
As another ps. Her first foal was castrated and sold due to temperament issues (later to have found to be from the sire line as numerous of his siblings are the same), the other two I have kept. So I am not doing this to make fortunes (I wish lol) |
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 9:23:15 PM
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Donna, you know I know that you really care about your horses and I know you are doing the ET for the right reasons and not to make money. However, as far as I am concerned what was done to Pianissima was exploitation and wrong. She is paying the price for being so beautiful. In a way I hope her foals by ET turn out to be a dissapointment and then perhaps it will stop. Most of those who have posted here would do ET for the right reason (old, valuable mare, rejecter, unable to carry a foal to term etc.) it is the others I strongly object to. However, as we are now free to farm as many foals from our mares as we want I will just have to live with it!
Barbara |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 10:22:20 PM
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that is why I want to try an ET from Crystal....she is a lovely old mare, and I would love another like her to carry on a proud line. I just need to find the right stallion now.....got options..but need to get things moving.
Emma xx |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 10:57:02 PM
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I'm inclined to agree wrt one foal a year for the mares sake and to try to ensure that the technique is being used for the 'right' reasons. But in terms of breed genetics it really doesn't make sense to get worried about even 5 ( and that is a very large number for one mare, and would have meant flushing over several cycles) foals per year when stallions can cover hundreds of mares in a season.
In my opinion of far more concern is the SELECTION of breeding stock both mares and stallions in terms of soundness, temperament and proven performance. Breeding from fashionable horses who have never done anything more than ponce about on the end of a string is a far more serious threat to the breed than someone using a surrogate mum to carry the foal of a sound, useful, good tempered riding mare.
Also sorry to be a party pooper but there is research from America indicating that foal rejection is a heritable trait in Egyptians so for true rejecters (as opposed to nervous maidens) ET is maybe not a great idea as it could possibly allow the genetic perpetuation of this undesirable and distressing behaviour.
Cheers
Lisa
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lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 29 Oct 2008 08:12:35 AM |
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s.jade
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2401 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 08:13:56 AM
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I have a lovely old lady like Donna's mare, who had a horrible foaling this year and who we thought we might lose
I'd love to have another foal from her, as they really are beautiful, strong babies (one a graded dressage horse in Spain, one I hear is in UAE doing endurance) however, I won't dare put her througha worrying foaling again, and she has awful trouble keeping weight whilst infoal, so I may consider ET in a couple of years.
She's also a problem to cover, due to past bad experience we beleive.
However, if the idea is to allow mares with issues such as her's, and competition mares to be able to produce, then why would there be a need for more than one foal? I think it should be madatory that one one foal per mare is registered per year, otherwsie again, it's just breeding for the sakes of it? |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 09:18:06 AM
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Lisa's balanced comments could almost convince me that it is acceptable---and it would be in a perfect world where it was only mares such as the members on here want to use, and if there was only allowed to be one foal registered per year, and of course if it was only mares that should be bred in the first place.
But the trouble is humans seem to be incapable of this kind of restraint---the genie is out of the bottle now and the process will be over used and abused.I agree with Barbara---her example of Pianissima is horse abuse imo.
Humans and their tunnel vision in breeding programmes are already capable of missing the development of terrible faults in a line because they are only breeding for the fashion ( think pedigree dogs if you don't want to think horses). This creates even more potential for breeding something undesirable into a line because the mare doesn't carry her own foal---e.g. Lisa's example of SE rejection. |
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Edited by - Zan on 29 Oct 2008 09:21:09 AM |
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 10:57:22 AM
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I will jump to the defense of Se rejection and don't feel it can be so black & white. I do have one rejector but with the experience I've gathered since this mare have become alot more sympathetic regarding their pain tolerence. Tenderness has had two daughters for me which I have since bred with. The first was a little intolerant of baby but reared her and second baby was much better. She needed her space and enjoyed a summer baby with whom she lived out. This mare was hand reared with no mother figure other than me & a pony companion. The second daughter was a superb mother but she'd had a foster mum. The next baby Tenderness has for me I will percievere with and see if I can convince her motherhood is a good thing !! But I am prepared to put in weeks/months if need be which isn't easy for most. I do become abit obsessed and enjoy a challenge with these mares !!!! All my other SE's have been lovely mums. The are a quirky bunch but thats because they are better then any other Arabians.
PS They told me that !!! |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 11:24:17 AM
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I don't know anything about rejection in SE mares, and meant no offence to SEs -- it was only an example of one of the many things that could develop into a serious problem down generations of ET bred mares---of any breed or type.
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Ziadomira
Platinum Member
England
1635 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 5:16:31 PM
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I believe ET is an option that should be used only when necessary. I agree it is ideal when you have a mare that has had problems with foaling. Also if you do not want to risk your mare who may be elderly it can be a good idea.
I accept that the AHS has stated that they will not impose a limit on the number of foals from one mare in a year but I vaguely remember hearing that in this instance they are following either ECAHO or WAHO guidlines and the other organisation does impose a limit.
ET can produce more than one embryo from one cycle and in this instance I believe it would be criminal to destroy all but one of these potential foals. As the most critical part of the process is getting the embryo to continue its development when in the recipient mare by destroying the extra embryos you could result in having no foal at all. However I believe that a limit should be imposed by the AHS on the number of processes that can be undertaken in any one year. It takes six weeks after implanting before you can be happy the surrogate is in foal, maybe two processes should be the limit as if you wait six weeks and then find no foal it may be too late to start all over again.
As far as a foal taking after its surrogate mother is concerned I know that one major embryo transfer clinic has discovered that embryos should ideally be implanted in mares as similar to the biological dam as possible.
It also has to be accepted that if you have a mare that has awful conformation and cannot be ridden then you can get a decent foal from her and she will be happy.
It is also an option if you find your mare is carrying twins, but this would have to be very early in the pregnancy.
Whatever you do if considering ET as an option is to go to the best place. It is expensive, but you can insure for the cost if you don't get a foal.
ET has its place but only for the right ethical reasons.
Ziadomira |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 7:05:37 PM
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Just got in from work,Zan you are probably right about the Genie in the bottle, I don't have great faith in the human race either sometimes. But I was just trying to say that problems are usually caused by greed, ignorance and bad judgement, all medical techniques should be used reponsibly and of course many are misused, it does not mean that the technique itself is inherently evil, just it's application.
Delyth, to be fair, Zan was probably refering to a comment that I made. The research that I was refering to was (I am pretty sure but will chase it up if I get time) presented to the Britsh Equine Veterinary Association Congress in the mid-late 1990s. This was independant peer reviewed research, not just someones impression from a few mares. Of course the genetic tendency to foal rejection is what they were studying and of course this behaviour can in some instances be modulated by careful handling of the situation but the tendency to foal rejection is still there and is still inherited, obviously as with most other genetic characteristics it will not be inherited by 100% of the progeny. I have nothing whatsoever against Egyptians indeed the ones I have worked with have generally been very sweet horses. However I was asked 2 years ago to give a talk on heritable diseases in the Arab and I have to be honest most were associated primarily or exclusively with Egyptian lines... I am NOT anti Egyptian I was merely reporting the facts of the situation( I will pm you some references if I get time). I remember during this talk being aware that people may think that I didn't like Egyptians so I even went so far as interspersing some of the slides with pictures of a lovely SE stallion jumping xc fences. I think these issues, like SCID, are better dealt with openly and honestly with the aim of ensuring that as far as we can we reduce the incidence of deleterious genes without 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', our gene pools are already small, particularly for people breeding 'straight'lines whether Se, Crabbet or whatever. I really didn't mean to offend you or any other SE fans. I am v busy the next week but if you like pm me and I will try to dig out some references for you.
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 29 Oct 2008 7:12:28 PM |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 7:52:56 PM
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| Hi Lisa when you dig them out can you please pm them to me, always interested in new stuff. |
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firstlady
Gold Member
Wales
767 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 7:55:35 PM
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Of course Charlie
but Judith he's special 
I expect cuckoo may even go home being more araby  |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 7:57:13 PM
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I will Pat but as I said I am v busy next week then away for 2 weeks, so if you haven't heard before nag me at the end of Nov and I will get them to you.
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 9:43:12 PM
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Hi Lisa
Can you either send them to me, or better still, add them to this thread? When research is properly done, whether we like the findings or not, it is interesting and informative, and personally I like to know all I can, good and bad, about the horses I love and breed. I am scraping the money together to have my horses SCID tested as although many people say that it doesn't occur in SEs there was a long thread on the other website stating that it does and a breeder said that some of his mares were carriers.
We all know that there are rejecters and I know of Delyth's mare and one other lovely SE mare of rare bloodlines (maybe that is why they are rare!) although she was not a real rejecter, just a bad mother. However, left to nature, bad mothers are unlikely to rear their foals. I also know of several mares with little or no SE blood who are rejecters.
I breed SEs and all my mares have been really easy breeders and fantastic mothers; I can't think of a nicer sight in the world than a loving mare with her new foal.
"Just got in from work,Zan you are probably right about the Genie in the bottle, I don't have great faith in the human race either sometimes. But I was just trying to say that problems are usually caused by greed, ignorance and bad judgement, all medical techniques should be used reponsibly and of course many are misused, it does not mean that the technique itself is inherently evil, just it's application." Here, here, Lisa. As usual, we screw it up however good the idea is!!!
Barbara
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 9:55:19 PM
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Hi Lisa
No offense taken !!! I will always spring to their defense as I am completely besotted with them and loyal to the end !! A quirky bunch though
I'd love to have any research you have. I'm guessing it probably touches on juvenille epilepsy ???? That's a whole new topic !! |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2008 : 10:18:41 PM
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I promise that I will post the refs but as I said to Pat it may be a few weeks time, off the top of my head I had papers on foal rejection, cerebellar abiotrophy, epilepsy, occipitoatlantoaxial malformation, guttural pouch tympani, scid, arabian fading syndrome and lavender foal syndrome being primarily or exclusively Arab problems (NOT all Egyptian obviously). I also covered sweet itch, ERS and sarcoids being problems common in the Arab breed but not exclusive to it with at least a genetic component though obviously with environmental factors coming into play as well.
Will post by end Nov promise!!
Cheers
Lisa |
lisa |
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