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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 7:21:00 PM
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Just curious browsing and found some studs have mares in foal and also a foal due by embryo transfer, giving two foals in the same year genetically the offspring of the mare but one carried by a donor.
Anyone know the rules on embryo transfer, and wondered what other people think about it. My original thoughts were that for a top class competitive mare at least she can carry on performing while her genes were being reproduced, but the ones I have seen are show horses who would ordinarily sit at home producing just one foal per year.
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Acorn Arabians
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2052 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 7:49:38 PM
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| Ive always thought it was a great idea, if you have a treasured mare why not? I too would be interested to know the rules. |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 7:54:59 PM
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As far as I am aware you can harvest as many embryos as you want from a mare. Personally, having seen what IVF etc does to women's hormones I am totally against it except in the case of a valuable mare who cannot carry a foal. However, it is used to let people keep competing their horses when there is no reason why the mare can't have her foal naturally.
To those who do it I would ask one question. "Would you treat your daughter/sister/ wife like that". Hopefully your answer would be "No" so why are you doing it to your horse?
Pianissima paid the price for her outstanding beauty; four (at least) embryos harvested from her in her first breebing season, how sad.
Barbara |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:01:50 PM
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I agree with Barbara--it is just another form of horse abuse imo. Humans are never happy with nature.
In an extreme situation you could theoretically have several generations bred without any of the genetic mares giving birth---perhaps inadvertently leading to no mare in that line being able to carry a foal to term and have a natural birth. |
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Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:05:41 PM
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I don't know much about it, but I don't think it's a good thing to do.
Unnatural, and, from a human point of view, I think it very very sad that a mother would never have the joy of knowing her own offspring.  jmo |
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nn
Gold Member
England
659 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:24:07 PM
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I foaled a mare this year who was carrying an embryo for a dressage mare.
The mare is competing at PSG and to have time of to be a mum was out of the question. Yes she might be to posh to push.
But by the time her son is old enough to compete she will be ready to retire and the gap will be filled.
As for show horses having embryo transfers i suppose it depends if they are out competing
Another client has a top class small riding horse and she would love to get an embryo from her, she worries that as a show horse you are time limited.
But for her its the cost!
If it doesnt work first time it can become a massive expense.Running into thousands.
nicky
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NUTTER
Platinum Member
England
2452 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:33:24 PM
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Bit different!!! my uncle popped over to Australia and was shown how to do this with mohair goats
Which he did until recently.. i dont agree with it as in his case as so many his was for the turnover as the mohair embryos were placed in ordinary goats.. |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:36:06 PM
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I was just wondering if we were to get into a female QR Mark situation. As an untried youngster he had 100 plus mares AI'd if its unlimited whats to stop a mare owner doing likewise, they could just keep harvesting her eggs till she's got non left. On the human front, egg donation is a risky business, who is to say vets are any better at it than doctors. I thought many of us were concerned at overbreeding in the Arab world, if 'responsible' breeders are cutting back, then we will have a generation or two of narrowed gene pool.
I personally think a ridden competiton mare is an ideal candidate to have a foal born by transfer, she has proved herself to be tough and sound. It also means an inferior mare is not being bred to produce another inferior foal.
It is the question of numbers per mare that I am questioning, and its use for mares who do nothing else than live in the breeding barn.
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:40:01 PM
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| I saw several mares of different breeds, carrying the same QH foals, a couple of years ago - competing reining mother and father. It was really strange, and I wasn't too sure about the whole thing really. A bit too sci fi for me, I guess. |
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Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 8:53:16 PM
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Sorry, but it just seems so wrong to me.
Why do humans constantly feel the need to mess with Mother Nature???
Just because they can, doesn't mean that they should.
Would the horses choose this if given the option?
(Before I get shot down, I know we also ask them to do other things that aren't natural - being stabled, ridden etc etc)
But my objection to this is that these are invasive medical procedures which mess with the proper balance of nature. |
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2008 : 11:35:03 PM
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I'm looking into this for my mare, who is 22, and although she is fit and healthy, I would be reluctant to put her through the stress of foaling, even though she has had foals in the past.....and I'm currently searching for a suitable recipient mare to act as host for Crystal's embryo.
I am doing this purely because I would love a foal to carry on Crystal's lines and to be my replacement riding horse when the time comes. Also, Crystal has proven herself a tough, sound, and consistent competition mare, and those are the qualities I value. I would breed the one foal...that is all, and purely for me.
I think it can be a valuable tool.
Emma xx |
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 04:15:10 AM
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here in Aus I had an old gelding who's mother Franklin Jazirah was getting on in years much like madmares mare, Jazirah was very old but the then owners wanted 1 last foal from her without the risk of putting her in foal so they had this done & were very lucky to get a Fabulous filly out of it.
I believe the old mare is now dead but the owners have her filly to pass on the genes that helped make the old mare great |
     
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 04:51:29 AM
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I did it with Bint El Sanaa. We managed to get three embryos but none took in the recipient mare/mares. I was desperate to have a Salaam daughter from her but it just wasn't meant to be. The vet I used provided the recipients out of his own herd of mares. All big thoroughbred/hunter crosses. Sanaa simply couldn't have carried a foal so it was my only option. Unless you have a very healthy bank balance then it isn't something I'd suggest as the norm.
There were alot of competition mares being done at the same time so they could continue their careers. There was also a lovely mare with a dangerously narrow pelvis and this was the only safe way of her having a baby. I found it fascinating and would go down that route again if need be. I only wish I knew more about it when I had Moynese and then perhaps I would have been able to get a daughter from her. Sometimes mother nature is cruel. |
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Hannah B
Bronze Member
United Arab Emirates
52 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 06:12:39 AM
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Sorry, but it just seems so wrong to me.
Why do humans constantly feel the need to mess with Mother Nature???
Just because they can, doesn't mean that they should.
If we humans stopped interfering with mother nature, millions of people would still be dying from the common cold. Cancer would be untreatable etc etc.
Does this also mean that we shouldn't use AI???? 
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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Dot
Gold Member
England
669 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 09:39:20 AM
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22 in some breeds of horse is old.
In my opinion form genetic stand point there are good and bad sides to ET.
1) If only mares with a proven track record of competition were used then great your chances of producing a similarly good foal and the number of fgood foals would increase. Shifting the average quality of horses closer to the best. (Not showing, as that is just a beauty pageant dependent on current flavour of the era.)
2) Provide you apply 1 then this is a great way to carry on competing your top mares and proving there worth while breeding future generations.
3) Why should we limit the number of foals a mare can produce in her life time, consider how many coverings a stallion can do inone season.
4) There is nothing morally wrong with it a non pregnant mare does not know that she has a foal via another mare. Every time your mare cycles she releases an egg so strictly speaking if there was an emotional issues every cycle would have the same effect as egg collecting.
5) Potentially if ET was within the reach of more people I can see that genetic diversity could be lost. That said only allowing Natural coverings therefore excluding all mares based in foreign countries from using your stallion could also lead to loss of genetic diversity.
Personally I have a mare who so far has produced 5 foals 4 male and one female. The three pure breeds of competing age have all been multi race winners. I would love to breed a filly from her to carry on her blood lines at home for me. However given her track record the chance of me doing so is slim 1 in 5 and falling. If I had the money and ET could guarantee me a filly then yes I would do it.
ET has not been proven detriment on the foal.
Yes there is a possibility to the donor mare that her first ET cylcle to harvest eggs could result in her releasing a large number of eggs and never cycling again, (pretty slim but still a risk, same applies to humans. Theoretically there is a similar risk to the recipient mare as you have to synchronise the cycles, I don't know of any cases in any animal of this but I am not as well read in this side of things..
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Dot
www.threelowsfarm.com
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Delyth
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1425 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 10:30:40 AM
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Just to stress the point the narrow pelvis mare wasn't an Arabian but a very successful showjumping mare. Not that that was important just thought I should say !!! I'm not saying what they did was right but I know the resulting baby was a filly and she has had two babies naturally both fillies but neither of breeding age yet. I'll follow it with interest now to see if occurs again.
I'd definately do it again. With rejecting mares it could be a huge bonus for those not wanting to go through that sad affair. |
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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 10:36:14 AM
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| A top Event mare from Bromsgrove had a foal by this method and while she herself was busy eventing, the event mare had an accident and was destroyed, while her transfer mare went on to produce her lovely top class foal. |
Sue
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madmare
Platinum Member
England
2129 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 10:44:31 AM
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Keren..her age is not why I am doing it...it is because I don't want to put her through the stress of foaling..I have possibly found a recipient mare, and will be asking her owner (who is a friend) if she will let me use her. My vet is an experienced AI vet (he used to be the retained vet for Country Colours Stud)and has performed ET's on a fair few mares. He thinks my chances of getting a live foal are very good.
Emma xx |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
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lisa rachel
Gold Member
Wales
831 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2008 : 9:57:26 PM
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I have found your comments on this topic very interesting. I consider myself first and foremost a horse lover who just happens to be an equine vet, and thus am always wary of getting carried away with the exciting possibilities that science offers, always asking myself if any procedure is truly in the horse's best interests. Don't get me wrong... I love all the wonderful equipment and new techniques that we now have available, we can help horses in so many ways that were not possible even a few years ago, but at our clinic we try to differentiate between what we can do and what we should do for each individual horse.
Vaccination against tetanus is not natural, nor is assisting a mare with a difficult foaling nor is colic surgery nor is AI nor is ET.....So where do we draw the line ????
I think that most of us agree that procedures aimed at helping an individual animal return to health are acceptable, so for now let's just look at reproduction.
For example...
1)Pinching twins... and I must have pinched many hundreds.
Obviously it avoids the heartache of abortion/weak/dead foals etc. Great, but in offering this option mares that are twinners can be successfully bred from many times whereas in the past many of these mares would be dropped from a breeding program. Of the offspring of these mares, the fillies will be more likely to be twinners themselves and so we are perpetuating a problem ( Twink Allen warned about this years ago in tbs and surprise surprise the rate of twinning in tbs today is very high).
2) AI ... great, reduces breeding injuries and these can be horrific, reduces disease and the transport of very young foals all over the country, increases genetic diversity.. semen from abroad etc
But AI is often used as part of a package to help subfertile mares get in foal ... again taking the negative selection pressure off ie allowing the perpetuating of subfertile families... I know for sure of cases where I have AI'd difficult breeder mares whose lines are now into 3 generations,all difficult breeders, none of whom would have been born without AI.
3) ET ....allows breeding from mares who are fantastic, busy career girls. Sound, brave, good tempered riding mares. But there seem to be some concerns about this technique which are due to misunderstandings. For example it is not possible to get a mare to 'superovulate' which is what all the hormone therapy is aimed at in IVF so there is no need for extensive hormone therapy regimes and there are no worries about the mare 'running out of eggs'. The aim is simply to ensure that donor and recipient are in synch,this is often acheived with nothing more dramatic than a jab of estrumate, just as we would use it to ensure the mare ovulates at a time siutable for the delivery of semen from Europe. Zan is a person I very often agree with ( and certainly do wrt the narrow pelvis mare and also that we could end up with generations of mares who have not foaled naturally), but I have to say that breeding basically IS about sperm and eggs, this doesn't mean that the horses as individuals are of no consequence, quite the opposite an animal to be used for breeding should be a fine, treasured and proven horse (imo!). For example a client of mine hoping to do an ET program next year to increase a rare and desirable genetic factor in her small group of breeding horses not only treats the horses as 'sentient beings' but as family members. Science and compassion are not mutually exclusive.
I also think the worry of a mare overproducing is a non-argument, as I said mares dont superovulate, ET is expensive and does not have high success rates so the chance of any mare producing vast numbers of foals is pretty small, certainly compared to stallions. Barabara Gregory, btw, is another person that I very often agree with so I am not trying to be contrary just to put things in perspective.
I would be very interested in your comments on all these scenarios.
For myself...I have very serious moral qualms about some of the repro work I do, not because it is invasive but because so many brood mares have that status ( I am NOT particularly talking Arabs here) because they are , due to conformation or character faults, unsuitable for riding (accidentally injured mares excepted). So there I am helping these mares reproduce their faults... obviously I do sometimes advise the owner just simply not to breed, but it is a free world and it is the owners choice. The other side of this coin is the older maiden, one of the most difficult groups of mares to get in foal, but so often a fantastic mare with a wonderful career behind her... so disappointing when these mares fail to conceive or suffer pregnancy loss.
If ET means that more foals of working, sound, cooperative mares are produced surely that is a good thing? BUT...to be honest I did consider taking a foal by ET from our beloved Sealeah while she continued to enjoy her work,however in the end decided not to because there is a greater degree of manipulation required per rectum to flush out the foal than in scanning or AI and I would never ever ever ever forgive myself if anything happened to her... plus Harry would kill me!
Sorry that was long, hope it made sense and would be very interested to hear what you think!
Cheers 
Lisa
PS Just reread this and realise that I sound massively pro ET... I am not I am just putting some other perspectives on the table! |
lisa |
Edited by - lisa rachel on 28 Oct 2008 8:08:54 PM |
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 04:09:20 AM
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To a certain degree I agree that its playing with mother nature, the same as IVF in humans is screwing with human fertility, for me it would have to be a damn good reason to to do this in either myself or a horse
as i said in my other post it was done because of the risk to the old mare,
personally I have fertility issues which theoretically could be genetically passed onto any of my own offspring so in getting help to have kids I would potentially pass on the same problem to any Children resulting from said help.. Still its a toss up, because i would really like to have kids some day, at least one so i could pass on my knowledge of horses & teach to ride, I even have the perfect ponies already trained for my kids to learn to ride on so you can see, even in the human world it is a toss up weather or not we should be helping..
as far as human intervention & messing with nature goes with things like the flu & cancer, think about how overpopulated the world is right now, & how much poverty there is maybe it wouldn't be like this -- just a controversial thought ---- doesn't necessarilly mean that I totally believe in that myself its just a thought........
hey Lisa just reread your post, what great thoughts, I guess its the same whether your breeding from the mare or going ET - these decisions should be made with commonsense, |
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Tracey@ET
Gold Member
England
539 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 07:06:22 AM
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Delyth totally agree with you about mares that reject ........... i would consider ET after having a rejected foal this year.
People will always beg to differ. But science is a wonderful thing it saves lives as well as creating them  |
  
www.el-tahira.co.uk |
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firstlady
Gold Member
Wales
767 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 08:55:51 AM
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very interesting topic and opinions and whilst not a subject that I know great deal about - just about getting my head around AI
what does interest me is the resulting foal is obviously then nutured by his or her host mum and does that foal take behavioir characteristics from said mum ?
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CINDERS
Gold Member
England
750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2008 : 11:53:23 AM
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Whilst I have no issues with the procedure I do think that to maintain genetic diversity the amount of embryos transferred should be limited.
When I looked into this for an elderly mare of my own (Delyth you will know the one) the expense was sinply too great. I was advised at the time that normally 3 mares are synchronised with the donor mare each slightly apart in their cycles and that my own mare would need to be away for some considerable time at not inconsiderable expense. Decided to buy the daughter instead.
My own Derjava is 23 now and sails through her pregnancies and foaling so 22 is definitely not too old.
Yvonne |
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Everything has gone south though, so it's not a go-er!