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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 3:06:55 PM
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I am not against bits, thats not why i have posted this video. I just saw it and started to think about all the suffering that goes on daily in the menage in the name of training and schooling. How often have you seen someone at a show or competion and wanted to stop them pulling their horses mouth or kicking, whiping and scolding. Is it horse abuse?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-u2co2agr6M&feature=related
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vjc
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4952 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 3:22:21 PM
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| I think it`s a fact this treatment of horses mouths in more common than we would like to believe!!! look closely at some showjumpers, dressage and pony clubbers!!! the sad thing is if they were not roughly handled in the first place their mouths would not end up so ruined!!! |
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Edited by - vjc on 09 Oct 2008 3:33:50 PM |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 3:47:10 PM
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I couldn't watch it all I'm not against bits either,I use them but I do think there misuse is one of the most over looked forms of abuse. |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 4:12:26 PM
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ABSOLUTELY! I've actually seen it before and couldn't watch it all. Sadly it's not the exception but the rule. As others have said, i am starting to come to the conclusion that horse "sports" are becoming an out of bounds area in our house. i was watching Pony of the year (we've just got sky  ) and i had to turn that off due to the way the majority of riders were hauling on their horses mouths and the way their heads were strapped down (amongst other stuff).
It sickens me to be honest, but i get so angry i never put my point across very eloquently  .
Ros |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 6:09:25 PM
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Pat Parelli said something once like "if horses could scream show grounds would be deafening". I went to a show not long after with new eyes and have not been since. Children are sometimes worse than adults!
Michelle |
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Montikka
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2653 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 6:22:49 PM
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I absolutely agree about children on ponies. So many of them have lovely, compliant mounts but decide they need to be ridden in a 'Dutch Gag' simply because of fashion.
Ghaleem - that Pat Parelli quote is haunting.
There was a post on here today about the abuse (torture) of a Dressage horse. It was painful to watch - and I wondered too, is this what we have to do to get to 'The Top'? |
   
Louise, Warwickshire |
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hannah28
Gold Member
England
617 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 6:27:09 PM
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I'm a huge fan of bitless, and i guess education (of owners) is the way forward. You can do just as much with a horse without the metal in its mouth, and the bonus with that is that you are working in harmony, with a greater degree of trust, not relying on brute force and gadgets
I can't bear to go to many smaller local shows, as, as much i would like to support our local shows, i just see too much bad riding, hauling on mouths, excessive whipping/spurring, and just generaly bad horsemanship...all in pursuit of a bit of ribbon.
Ghaleem, another on you tube which always makes me sad for the horses http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLZCG-ctuw&feature=related
Han x |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 6:33:38 PM
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I've seen that video before and yes it most certainly is horse abuse. I am definitely not against bits, but I SO WISH all people were trained properly from the start so that they realise how much pain they are capable of inflicting.
Unfortunately a lot of the riders in this video should know better---there is no excuse for rollkur and the abuse suffered by polo ponies, show jumpers etc.
Rollkur is a particular hate of mine because it creates a horrible parody of what can be achieved by classical riding creating lightness and collection in a wonderful partnership.They have missed the point entirely---taken the classical "outline" and forced the horse into what they imagine it to be. It speaks volumes about the state of competitive dressage today that people using techniques like rollkur actually win |
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trinity
Gold Member
Scotland
1126 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 6:35:40 PM
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| This is awful. Sadly, a lot of it is down to poor instruction and poor production of horses in the first place - IMO. Kids and gadgets should not be allowed with ponies. I don't think enough instructors teach you how to feel when you ride, and far to many people ride with their hands and not their seats. JMO. |
Beck |
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hannah28
Gold Member
England
617 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 6:43:08 PM
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lkxOp_xfVEg&feature=related
Yet another example of horses suffering abuse at the hands of fools...both kids and adults in this video
This kind of riding is abhorrent, as are all the gadgets designed to clamp horses' mouths shut, their heads down, and basically force them to comply. I just find it all so sad, and totally unnecessary
Han x |
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TanyaB
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 7:05:15 PM
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I echo the Parelli statement. I have backed my gelding using Parelli methods - I ride him in a rope halter with no bit at all, just rope reins attached to the halter, and all the control is from the seat - he halts, turns and backs all with the seat and no pressure on the halter or reins.
Another Parelli-ism I heard that sticks with me is 'where knowledge ends, violence begins' and I think this goes for this whole bit issue and the one on the dressage thread too. |
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mogwai
Platinum Member
England
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 8:43:47 PM
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I am certyainly not going to condemn bits 100%, but i do feel that many riders are not able to use them effectively, or without pain. All my 3 will be bitless. Chloe who has been with us for 3 months, and has always previously used a bit has made the transition from bitted to bitless seamlessly.
Again, not for everyone. i never want to compete or show, so i i don't see the need for mine to wear a bit, they understand how to give to pressure.
Ros |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 9:59:11 PM
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I had a very sensitive pony when I was a teenager, I also grew too fast and was not too heavy but too 'big' for him. He was a brilliant gymkhana pony, far outcassing anything I have seen today! I rode him in a halter bareback for a couple of years, except for shows, he responded much better, neck reining and stopping from change in body position. He would do stop to galop, canter at walking speed, trot faster than any pony up to 2 hands higher, and all with a kid in a halter.
How I wish there had been better training and instruction then, no pat parellis in my day. These days mine that have been ridden are done so with washing line reins, but are so light in the mouth just shortening the reins and they slow / stop.
I hate watching the brigagde that use strong arm tactics because they have failed in their groundwork to allow the horse to understand what is wanted. |
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Cinnypony
Gold Member
1160 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 10:35:05 PM
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Glad that Cinny now has a bitless bridle - she didn't like her rubber bit... can't blame her.
At a local rescue trust open day in the summer our yard owner did a stall on bit and other gadget abuse. One of the things we did was get people to sit down and we but a pelham on their shin with the chain round back of leg. They were given the reins and asked to take up a contact. Everyone found it painful, although they'd only taken up gentle contact.
We then showed them a horses skull and where the bit would sit in the mouth.
Alot of people were quite shocked
Hopefully at least some of them will go bitless?
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Cinnabar Moth --------------- -----------CF Matilda ----Red House Gaia
Susi
https://www.facebook.com/CinnabarEndurance/ |
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NUTTER
Platinum Member
England
2452 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 11:38:18 PM
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I am not against bits but do think there is not enough information in this area for people..
I stopped someone back along as they were riding with a pelham upside down!! horse poor thing was not happy..
Biggest mistake i made as had to deal with angry parent who came looking for me!!
The bit was not corrected for the whole period they owned this horse was sold on and new owner could not even get near it with a bridle i heard so sold it on again.. now this horse a arab i have noticed is rehomed and all feedback i have seen sounds very positive..
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 11:52:01 PM
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I was always taught as a child to treat the reins as if they were pieces of cotton, if you pull too hard they will break. I must have been 7 at the time, but it was a lesson well learned.
One of the worst situations I have ever seen was when a 9 yo girl (very good rider???) was allowed to mount a 15.3hh Apaloosa in a brand new, badly fitted double bridle. New rider, new bit and bridle - the child picked up the reins and the horse almost went over backwards. The horse was terrified, the child learnt a very hard lesson (the 'power' of the bit, and the sensitivity of a horses mouth), and the owner/parent were badly shaken. Such a shame that both the horse and the child suffered for the sake of a 'lesson' that could have been easily avoided.
Carla, xx. |
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Pixie
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
6586 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 02:36:05 AM
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pieces of cotton..... very good
i was taught baby birds - don't crush them |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 07:02:31 AM
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Even as a child, which was many years ago, I felt that there must be another way other than with bits, I am told that I have beautifully light hands. My German instructor was very strict about hands and we did a lot of work without reins. I am delighted to see that Parelli collars and Dr Cook bridles are now around but far too many people still abuse their horses. The children are learning from adults how to do this.
I rode my boy in the parelli head collar and could do anything with him which I could not do with a bit in his mouth. Someone in the past had hurt his mouth.
The expression 'on the bit' is ridiculous as you do not have to have bit in the mouth to work properly from behind and have a lovely outline.
As regards other gadgets. I have even heard a judge suggest to someone that they tied the horses head down. Thank goodness the rider answered ' absolutely not!!' If this is the attitude what hope is there!!! |
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sazzlepants71
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 08:11:02 AM
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its horrible the abuse that goes on , the riders /owners want to 'win, win, win' at whatever the cost its the world we live in i am afraid..
thankfully there are people out there with kind & correct techniques - for those of you who want kind reading and instruction
google 'joni bentley' for a free book & dvd on lighteness of riding it wonderful! x |
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precious
Platinum Member
England
2253 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 09:15:40 AM
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Ive had to turn off those videos cant watch um.
I would love to go bitless but unfortunatly my horses mouth has been ruined so all i can do when hacking and jumping is but a gentle happymouth bit in cos then if i have to have alot of contact its less. I dont even attempt to get her in an outline cos i cant she wont accept contact.
My youngster when she is broke with hopefully have a lovely mouth where i can try bitless bridles etc ;)
I do think the kids that ride with all hands and whips need to be spoken to by the show organisers i see too much off whipping etc at jumping shows and have had to make complaints about them some people think its acceptable and the norm!! |
     
Gemma Thompson
Birmingham West Midlands
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Kelly
Platinum Member
England
1571 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 09:57:51 AM
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I couldn't watch it all either. It made me very sad.
I am far from expert, (light years and many universes in fact), but Jack is the first horse I've backed, and he's never been ridden with a bit in. I had a Dr Cooks but he developed an aversion to the headpiece, so I now ride in a rope halter. I've just bought one from America with two rings under the chin instead of a fiador knot, to allow me to take up a better contact.
Jack is very green, but last night, we had the most amazing schooling session - he worked his little socks off for half an hour - transitions, 20m circles, serpentines, spiralling - all in a lovely, soft outline with NO bit.
The rider that went into the school after me had a rather het up pony with it's head in the air and it's mouth tied shut with a flash. Jack walked out past them calmly on a loose rein.
Hopefully we'll get to Tanya's stage, with everything done from seat aids (we're not quite there yet  )
I aren't against bits at all. I appreciate that they can be wonderful tools of communication in the right hands. The problem is normally the hands, not the bit.
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Kelly
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TanyaB
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 12:18:58 PM
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| I think that many people could do with taking the bits out of their horses mouths and then seeing how much of a relationship they have with their horse then! I think the problem with a lot of kids riding is that they look up to the professionals, see what they are doing and copy tthem. A sad but true fact that a lot of the riders at the top of their game such as dressage, leave a lot to be desired. I'm by no means a great rider, I've just followed what felt to be the right path for me and my horse (Parelli) and it has worked out for us both. |
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TanyaB
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
147 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 12:19:38 PM
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| I think that many people could do with taking the bits out of their horses mouths and then seeing how much of a relationship they have with their horse then! I think the problem with a lot of kids riding is that they look up to the professionals, see what they are doing and copy tthem. A sad but true fact that a lot of the riders at the top of their game such as dressage, leave a lot to be desired. I'm by no means a great rider, I've just followed what felt to be the right path for me and my horse (Parelli) and it has worked out for us both. |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 1:20:58 PM
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To me, the video shoots itself in the foot somewhat. Some of the photos used are of situations that could happen momentarily to anyone, others are clearly of third world equipment. There is a big difference between accidents, lack of humane equipment, lack of knowledge of how to use humane equipment and the systematic abuse perpetrated by those educated riders who use rollkur and hyperflexion.
IMO, the rollkur/hyperflexion situation is one that is perpetuated by one thing only - human greed for success, whether financial or celebrity - and as such should not be tolerated. Lack of knowledge and lack of equipment can and should be addressed (I believe SPANA still runs its 'buy a bit for Africa' campaign?). Accidents can happen to anyone.
I have a horse who is not comfortable in a bit - even though I am so paranoid about 'hands' that even cotton would be too strong for my grip, LOL! Put her in a headcollar or kineton, and after 20 minutes or so, she starts to take the p*ss. Put her in an English hackamore, and she's as happy as Larry. That made me very aware about finding the best solution for my other horses. But it doesn't mean that I don't use bits at all.
Everything can be used for abusive purposes (yep, even chocolate) - tackle the abuser first, not the inanimate object!
Keren |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 1:27:40 PM
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Gawd that was awful
We have just been able to buy a beatiful , well schooled light mouthed pony for my daughter. It was for sale ( close to £4000 !) and they let us buy it for a few hundred ( ), just because we said "we need to teach our daughter to ride between a light hand and strong leg ", and did not want her riding something with a tough mouth. We had a long discussion about kids learning from the begining that mouths are sensitive and should be treated as such......and because of this they practically gave her to us ! They said they had many kids try her out and they had to get the kids off her after a few mins as they ALL had hauling hands
I do not attend shows as I cannot stand to see horses strapped down, hauled around ( or in the case of in hand Arab showing ) scared out of their skin....by people who shout loudest and know the least.
I do ride my horse in a bit, but with a light contact , ( I cannot take a tug as my back will not stand up to it ), and rely on my voice A LOT....and have noticed that talking to your horse is frownd upon....whats THAT about ! gadgets are OK ...but communication with your voice not ????
I think we all need to stop and think about the bits we use .....do we really need them? could we use a milder one ??? or could we use them with more skill and less weight....we may be surprised at what we can do, to improve the situation for our horses. |
   
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2028 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 3:07:51 PM
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Hannah, i'm sure those horses are screaming inside
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