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Zenitha
Gold Member
 England
1078 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 7:14:47 PM
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I'm really going to put the cat amongst the pigeons now  
Based on what we can pay in this country to use a top stallion, is it acceptable that the stud fee is often more than the value of the resulting foal, in todays market ? (Unless you are very lucky).
Obviously, we all breed for different reasons (I breed for myself, not to sell)but I have noticed lately good quality foals selling for less than the stud fee would have cost. This is obviously a reflection of the climate we live in, but is it right that stud fees remain high, without following the market ?
Some may argue that higher stud fees will attract the most responsible breeders - which may well be true. Unfortunately, that does not help the bigger picture - those that are going to breed will do it any way, but will use a cheaper, possibly inferior sire, and so the market is still flooded, but with lower quality stock.
I don't really know the rights or wrongs of this. I do believe that if you have a good stallion, you should be able to charge a good fee to use him (and I realise fees in this country are relatively low compared to abroad). However, I don't think it's right that you should pay more to use a stallion, than the resulting foal will be worth, as a result of the economic climate.
This is not meant as a critisism of anyone, really a genuine question as to what people think about the situation.
Your thoughts ?
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 8:02:49 PM
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This is such a difficult one really it is. If you price your stallion low, as some do, then you are criticized for encouraging over breeding and devaluing the stallion, if you offer your stallion at a fairly high price then you are too expensive.
I think in the current climate perhaps the stud fee would be better off being slightly higher, JMO here, it does make owners stop and think hard before putting that mare in foal.
If you have to sell something that is advertised lower than the stud fee, well this is one of things, it has always happened. Nothing will change that I'm afraid.
I wear the tee shirt
My stud fee was very reasonable to start with, but after seeing the foals, we have put it up and we want to reduce the amount of foals around by our chap.
We do include the keep fees in our stud fee.
We also offer a reduced rate for non arabs. These extra's are not advertised, perhaps they should be? I send all the details out after I get an enquirey.
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 8:06:59 PM
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I don't breed so feel free to completely ignore my comment of the stud free should have nothing to do with the market but should reflect the quality of the stallion.
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Hampshire |
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s.jade
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2401 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 8:14:39 PM
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My boy isn't standing at public stud, so fees are irrelevant, but personally, I'd consider even upping them a bit, puts people off who are breeding for the sake of it, and only people who REALLY want to use your stallion will then contact you; if such a person did, with a fantastic mare who complimented my boy and who was breeding for the right reasons I'd then consider lowering to them, but it'd possibly help to stop the breeding for the sake of breeding?
However, my lad is now an old guy, and outside mares are too much hassle for him (well, we know this... though he is still up for anything LOL) so we're using him solely for ourselves, on mares we know will be nice to him  |
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Suelin
Platinum Member
England
2514 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 8:23:06 PM
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I don't breed either, however I have given this question some thought before now. I guess it depends on the Stallion in question. If you have a queue of mares waiting to be bred to him then I guess it comes down to supply and demand. Possibly? However if you don't then would it be reasonable for the mare owner to haggle over the fee? Let's face it you probably would over buying a car. I'm not suggesting that a foal is the same thing, just that in similar situations it might be expected that you would haggle. It's a rock and hard place situation for stallion owner and mare owner alike I think.
SueB, I'm sort of puzzled as to why you are trying to price your lovely boy out of the market. Or have I misunderstood you?
Also what is that makes anyone choose which ever stallion anyway. Some similarly bred horses seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. Some hugely popular and some that no one wants to use. It sure puzzles me. |
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Vera
Membership Moderator
United Kingdom
8652 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 8:32:34 PM
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I don't read Sue's comment as pricing Montoya out of the market, I read it as only the people who really want to use HIM will use him, and not because he's cheap.
One thing for sure is very clever marketing can make most stallions appear desirable. |
Hampshire |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 8:51:26 PM
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In a perfect world, there would only be the comparisons of the actual quality of the stallion to consider. But some very good boys might be kept by less experienced horse keepers, and WHERE your mare goes comes into play. If you value your mare, she will go somewhere with beautifully manicured individual post and rail paddocks, clean and airy spacious stabling, and knowledgeable staff there 24/7.
There are stories aplenty about the condition mares can come back home from stud, and if this side gets you a good reputation you can reflect it in the fees.
Also, the ADVERTISED stud fee might not actually be charged to EVERY customer. If you had a mega super star mare to visit your stallion, the hoped for foal shuld enhance your stallions reputation so you would practically give the service awy, for future business.
The foals at less than stud fee may not have lived up to expectations, or like with the QR Marq situation, there is one for sale on every street corner.
I do think though that the very 'best' stallions should stand at fees that encourage breeders to try to improve on their mares not just use the local boy who is cheap. The other thing that happens is once you have few mares, 3 are enough, its more cost effective if you have the premises to buy in a colt / stallion than use other proven sires, especially when you factor in transport, keep vets fees etc at the stud.
If you look at the return of mares books, most stallions are producing a very very small number of pure bred foals each year, some non so their names disappear for a while. This may be good for diversity within the breed, provided that the stallions are of a minimum acceptible quality / proven track record in performance.
comments from a small and occasional breeder who has had much better concepton rates using a home kept stallion of good bloodlines and sound temperament, also allowed him to be used very cheaply to people who had the right reasons to breed a foal - a one to keep - to reflect that it is dearer for them to do this than buy in a ready made horse.
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 9:09:22 PM
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I'm not a breeder, but there often seems to be a discussion that some stallion owners want to discourage mares that will not be a good "advert" for their boy. Therefore the feeling may be that by upping the stud fee you may keep these people away.
But, looking at the sale pages there are many quality foals from "expensive" sires that are up for sale. Surely if a mare owner, not necessarily a wealthy one, is breeding for themselves and not to sell on, and they want the best sire for their mare, then isn't that a better outcome than then a person breeding purely to sell. In the current climate supply seems to exceed demand.
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 9:59:45 PM
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Well said Vera and thankyou.
Stallion owners must keep advertising especially when there is a recession. One of the first things that often gets dropped by studs when times are hard is advertising. Keep it going and see the difference.
We nearly closed Montoya's book for next year as there are some lovely foals of his around now. I don't want there to be too many.
He is being backed and is a busy chap at the moment so we will see how the future pans out. Our long term plan is mares for next year, then book closed for 2010 as we hope he will hit the show ring again under saddle.
2010 we will have a new stallion to stand at stud..........his son. again first time users will be rewarded with inexpensive stud fees. (for a limited time only) by then I probably will be dead anyway......so who cares?... Forgot to add, I'll try my best to keep going until the mares are covered. |
Edited by - SueB on 06 Oct 2008 10:03:32 PM |
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Acorn Arabians
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2052 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 10:13:33 PM
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A good stallion will command whatever stud fee is charged depending on who you are and if your face fits quite simply.
I personally think stud fees should be higher not because I have stallions at stud but to prevent sentimental breeding for the sake of it . The arab is the only breed that is worth more as a foal than a full grown horse!
When a stud fee is too low people ask whats wrong with stallion, its another one where you just cant win.
So damn it I've taken up knitting! |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 10:48:40 PM
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I have to disagree with some of you, my stallion, in someone elses hands COULD and WOULD command far higher fee's! ( and my face certainly does not fit, not that I give a jot) he is after all a 3* stallion and so far the only one in the UK!, he is too good for me to own really, but I do ( or rather he is entrusted to me) he has also proved to be a producer of top quality champion foals, yet my fees (when I allow him to be used which is not often) are well below what other stallion owners are charging! I dont believe putting his stud fee up higher would deter people from using him!as I do that already by standing him by private treaty only. Jane, I would say your foal will far outweigh your stud fee sweetheart |
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
Edited by - LYNDILOU on 07 Oct 2008 02:25:21 AM |
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pam
Bronze Member
England
176 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 10:29:51 AM
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I dont necessarily think that a high stud fee limits the number of mares to a particular stallion. Surely if the stallion owner wants to limit the number of mares they can simply do that - ie if they decide to only take 10 per year then do that! It is up to the stallion owner to pick and chose what mares they allow their boys to cover.
Being able to afford high stud fees alone does not guarantee that the mare/foal will be well looked after, I'm sure we have all heard stories of neglect of very well bred expensive horses!
While I'm not saying that stud fees should be cheaper I think there are better ways of limiting breeding.
I think that it is a shame that not much is done to promote using pure bred stallions on non arab mares. Everyone who knows arabs will agree that they are fantastic athletes and can produce quality sports horses but very few people I know would consider using a pure bred arab mostly due to the cost. Try explaining to someone why they should go for a pure bred arab at £1000 plus when they can use a VERY nice TB for half that amount, or a grade A show jumper for half that!!
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 10:30:12 AM
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We all do what we think is right for these stallions, not easy when people do want a cheaper covering, I understand that.
We have all seen stock for sale for less than the stud fee, some from very very expensive stallions, mainly colts, just goes to show that the stud fee does not really indicate the value of a foal.
I know I can be very flippant with some of my remarks, no offence intented. My own view of standing stallions at stud is to let all mares try him first........sounds shocking doesn't it, but none of us no matter how we study our pedigrees, can be certain of producing that stunning foal, sometimes born out of the most unlikely mare, so no, I would not block a mare on breeding or who owned it!! but I certainly would not want a cripple to turn up.
Suelin, I am not intentionally pricing my chap out of the market, it has always been the intention to put the stud fee at a price that we feel is worth all our effort in covering and getting peoples mares in-foal.
Visitors as always are very welcome |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 10:36:00 AM
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i've always thought the majority of arab stallion stud fee's are too high compared to other breeds.
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pagey |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 10:47:47 AM
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In a way I agree with you Nikki. Hence we offer non arabs a reduced rate.
As Arabs have always been on the high side I guess we have all become used to it. Wonder what others feel?
I agree with Pam about reducing mares to a 'number', problem is you rarely get that many mares visit you in real life!! Yes, maybe if the covering fee was reduced, but then you are back to flooding the market.
It's a no win situation. |
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nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 12:21:32 PM
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I have used pure-bred stallions to breed Anglos and Part-breds in the past and have never had a stallion owner say no to this idea. I've even imported semen from relatively expensive foreign stallions to do the job and always get a reduced fee as they think the foal won't be worth as much as a pure-bred. Not always true. One thing that must be borne in mind when doing this is that the 'fashonable' arab is rarely the right one to produce the goods.
Jean |
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weirton
Gold Member
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 12:27:33 PM
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Just read again the title of this thread and think I've shot myself in the foot. Please don't increase the stud fees to non-arab mares just inspect the mares first to ensure you are not creating a monster and limit numbers.
Jean |
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alistair leslie
Gold Member
England
1036 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 12:55:13 PM
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One should make decisions for the long term not knee jerk or spur of the moment .
There are really good stallions in this country but there is a limited market,getting smaller by the day, so one should be very cautious right now .
Some owners offer a gelding rebate ,some are in it for the money ,some are super and just plain normal wanting to carry on the lines so--your choice ,just pick the right one
What will the foal do?? Ridden,in-hand,endurance ,race or just look great
Will it be sold -To whom?
Arab horses have little perceived use to the general public,an old chestnut I know,but one has to be realistic .
Be very picky.
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blue moon |
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juliem
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 1:08:20 PM
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Good subject. Pat ww, and Pam I agree with your text. I also think that alot of high priced stallions are producing alot very bad offspring that cant be sold. Having money doesnt make good or bad breeders, or the knowledge to produce a good foal. It may permit stallion and mare owners to think that they are creating something "exclusive" but sadly thats about it.
OMO
Julie |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 1:15:18 PM
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Considering when the market was bouyant a friend had trouble selling top-class youngsters by one of the UK's top sires at a price that would cover the stud fee (much less the on-costs!), it seems likely that raising stud fees would simply add to the belief that Arabs belong to people who already live on another planet!
Roseanne has mentioned the people who bred her Spanish horse. These folk had some OUTSTANDING stallions - national champions, proven under saddle and as sires - yet they offered them at less than some Arab owners believe they should demand for a colt in its first season! Is it any wonder that the Spanish horse is taken more seriously?
I'm not in a position to take outside mares, but if so, my terms would be private treaty - which sounds off-putting, but would give me the chance to take the circumstances of every individual into account. I know the old saying is " if you have to ask, you can't afford it," but I'm sure it is possible to find a form of wording for stud adverts that puts across the message that you are offering similar terms.
Keren |
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Sasha Melia
Gold Member
England
1333 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 1:30:17 PM
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I think that stud fees should definitely not reflect the market. I am not saying they should go up, but I'm not saying they should go down either. In some cases they are cheaper than quite a few years back. I remember the Maxwells standing a couple of stallions at £2000 about 10 years or so ago? And the offspring sold for good money. Those were the good old days! However, the average in the UK now is around £1000. In my opinion if less people can afford to breed this can only be a GOOD THING for the current totally over-horsed Arabian horse market.
If stud fees get lower people will still be tempted to breed in their usual numbers rather than thinking twice about it, then as they haven't spent so much outlay they will possibly be more inclined to sell the foals cheaper, and soon we will be expecting to pick up a nice Arab for next to nothing.
The price Arabs are selling for has got ridiculous over the past 5 odd years, we should be encouraging less breeding, to produce less foals/youngsters, to create less being available for sale on the market, to put the prices back up due to demand! |
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 2:02:07 PM
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I guess if you want to use a stallion badly enough, the stud fee is not an issue,unless you want to sell the resulting foal! then yes the price to get the foal may well out weigh the cost of the stud fee.
in that case it is a good reason NOT to breed, but to buy a good youngster from the stallion you so admire. lets face it the stud fee is likey to be the smaller of the outlay by the time the horse is ready to sell. ( whats the saying? fool breed horses for wise men to buy?
you have to ask yourself why am I breeding a foal? is it to get a cheap offspring of the stallion and mare I like? is it to sell the offspring and make money? if thats the case let me tell you it is highly unlikely you will recoup your money.
I have just spent 5 thousand pounds getting my mare in foal to a stallion, but I intend to keep the resulting foal anyway, no I wouldnt get my stud fee back, but thats not why I bred this foal. |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
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Pashon2001
Platinum Member
3575 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 5:37:47 PM
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My boys are not technically available to public stud, Hakka is retired (only to be used by me) and The Alchemist is only available to outside mares owned by friends/and or special request. I am trying to limit the amount of beasties born into this world, and as I breed them myself I think that is enough contribution to the horsey planet.
I do use outside stallions, one is known personally to me and my mares to his owner, but I would love to say the two other outside stallions I used, both owners requested not just pedigrees of the mares, but PHOTOS as well! It was so nice to see someone not just look at a pedigree but ask to SEE a picture of the mare to ensure that she wasnt two headed or five legged!
A few years ago I was seriously thinking of breeding my best mare to a very expensive stallion owned by a very large stud who's boy was 'to select mares only'. I got a rather abrupt (maybe even rude) email demanding a copy of her pedigree. I duly sent it and got a 'brown nose' email back that my mare was 'perfect' for their boy. Never asked to see a picture of her though, nor had she got a show record, or anything. Personally I don't like that sort of attitude and good pedigree does not necessarily make good horse. It appeared that they only wanted resulting offspring that on paper sounded good.
As my 'stud fees' are very reasonable I certainly have never sold a foal for less than that, although if you put on your time etc etc then obviously I have. But thats the way of the world in breeding, using the latest fashion or proven long term stallion at a high fee, even to your best mare, does not mean you will get a valuable foal! Geesh, I wish it did!!!!! |
     
www.jarvastud.com http://hocon.webs.com/ |
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basbob
Gold Member
France
1356 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 7:45:17 PM
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| At the end of the day I believe it has nothing to do with money. There are many World champ sired babies for sale for less than their stud fee. It is fab to breed a star but there will always be the colts that have to go, and the foals that are not quite as super as were hoped for. Sad but true. |
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Zenitha
Gold Member
England
1078 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2008 : 8:08:58 PM
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Lyndilou - that's one foal I'm not worried about (besides, it is VERY unlikely ever to be offered for sale !)
And as I said to you at the time, I think your boy's fee is very reasonable considering his credentials, and that he is a proven sire. In fact, he is partly what prompted me to think of this post - I have recently seen lovely, but far less 'proven' stallions at stud for a way higher fee.
With regard to the quantity/quality debate - ,I have one mare who I consider could hold her own in very good company - and I will only ever use the very best stallions for her. Unfortunately, despite the fact that they may well produce exceptional offspring together, some of the fees are just to expensive for my pocket - so I will use a cheaper, BUT NOT INFERIOR stallion.I think the point I'm trying to make (badly!) is that there seems such a difference in stud fees, not necessarily following the excellence of the stallion as a sire. But equally, as has already been stated, it is entirely up to the stallion owner what fee they charge, and if they get the quality and quantity of mares they want at that price, then they can't be doing wrong.
I feel the best solution to the quality/quantity issue, which I know a lot of breeders already do, is to study the mares' pedigree and photographs, and only accept her if they feel the match would work.
Still, I also know PLENTY of breeders who will accept anything to their stallion, just being glad of the stud fee, and breed mediocre horses year after year, in large numbers, to sell. These are the guys driving the prices down !
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