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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 6:59:10 PM
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I have tried to find on the DEFRA website something that says that it MUST be a vet who does the markings. this is what the regulations form 2004 say.
PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ IT AFFECTS ALL OUR POCKETS.
Application for a passport
6. - (1) An application for a passport shall -
(a) be made by the owner of the horse;
(b) be made in writing to a passport-issuing organisation; and
(c) be in the format specified by that organisation.
Time limits for obtaining a passport
7. (2) The owner of a horse that was born after 30th November 2003 shall obtain a passport for it on or before 31st December of the year of its birth, or by six months after its birth, whichever is the later.
Issue of a passport
8. - (1) On application, provided all its requirements are complied with, the passport-issuing organisation shall issue a passport duly completed in the format set out in Schedule 1.
Requirements on persons administering veterinary medicinal products
18. - (1) Where a veterinary medicinal product is to be administered to a horse, the person in possession of its passport shall make it available to the veterinary surgeon or other person administering the product.
(2) The veterinary surgeon or other person administering the veterinary medicinal product shall -
(a) satisfy himself that the horse is the one described in the passport;
SCHEDULE 1
Regulation 8
Identification Document For Registered Equidae
PASSPORT
General instructions
I. Passports must contain all instructions needed for their use and the details of the competent authority which issued them.
II. Information shown on passports.
A. Passports must contain the following information -
1. Section I:
Owner
The name of the owner or his agent must be stated.
2. Sections II and III:
Identification
The equid must be identified by the competent authority.
3. Section IV:
Recording of identity checks
Whenever laws and regulations so require, checks conducted on the identity of the equid must be recorded by the competent authority.
SECTION III of the form has the drawings of the horse for markings and is for the signature of the veterinary surgeon OR OTHER COMPETENT AUTHORITY
Can anyone clarify?
The official AHS line is that it is a REQUIREMENT ov DEFRA for a vet to countersign the markings.
I do not read this from the 2004 regulations, the relevant parts of which I set oput above. It specifically allows the alternative 'competent authority' to sign the markings.
The vets practice I used sent a total ninny out for my Welsh ponies, brown was a bay, white sock did not say how far up leg and was a random line, a bite mark became a whorl, a very distinctive foot long under neck whorl wasn't even noticed etc etc. They allowed me to correct it with my own version for the sake of accuracy.
If anyone knows of an amendment that SPECIFIES that it MUST be a vet, will they please point me to the relevant ACT of parliament so I can read it for myself.
My other gripe is, we are allowed under the 2004 regulations, as above to register a foal by 31st DEcember of 6 months old WHICHEVER IS THE LATER, not 30th September or pay late fees.
Over and out - for now.
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Nedds71
Gold Member
Wales
679 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 7:10:21 PM
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I totally agree Pat I think it's the AHS causing expense for the sake of causing expense!!!
The registration fees are ludicrous any way - find another soc that charges this ammount! On top of this they cost us more by getting vet to do markings!!! I'm really lucky have excellent vet.
I think vets have better things to do than drawing pretty pics when most breeders are more than capable!!! |
BJ
www.bmjarabians.co.uk
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2008 : 7:21:32 PM
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| 'competent authority' if they need to know who CAN do markings all they have to do is let the local groups run a few courses, paying to be certified would only be the cost of a single visit from a vet for one foal. |
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spanishkisses
Bronze Member
England
138 Posts |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 10:46:10 AM
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A girl up here went to court last month for signing her own passports (rather than using a vet) and she got 12months in jail! |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 11:12:06 AM
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As from next year....not sure of exact date, we will have to have all foals micro-chipped. I am not sure if a vet has to do the micro-chipping, although I would prefer a vet to do the job myself.
You could get the passport discription done at the same time as having your foal micro-chipped by your vet.
I know it's more expense again, but then surely we have got to realise that breeding horses is an expensive hobby. Will this reduce the amount of foals bred? I think it might. This could in the very long term be a good thing. |
Edited by - SueB on 04 Oct 2008 11:12:48 AM |
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Nedds71
Gold Member
Wales
679 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 12:42:51 PM
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| All foals born after 1st July! Which means the poor little things will have to be chipped before they are four months old in order to registered by the AHS! |
BJ
www.bmjarabians.co.uk
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crinks
Gold Member
England
650 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 3:58:27 PM
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Its all got very out of hand now has all this, our vet did the marking section and signed it on a routine visit and no extra charge but he told me that he thought it was stupid as most owneres are competent enough to sort the markings charts themselves AND sign the damn thing!
The one about foal being microchipped is another thing that really seems to have got backs upas well, how much more money are they oping to ask for? Do they not think enough money is paid out in DNA tests and registrations?
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Taylor
Gold Member
England
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 4:28:32 PM
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Dont get me started, I find it quite ridiculous to be honest, I had my vet fill in my foals markings the morning after he was born when I already had them coming out to check him over. I refused to have to pay for another visit and the cost of them signing the form when I could have done it myself. Anyway the vet filled it out completely wrong said he had 4 white socks when he only had 2, 4 black feet should have been 2, didn't mark down correctly his white facial markings, said he was chestnut when he was clearly going to be grey, missed out several whorls.
I contacted the AHS who said I could just amend it myself. So what was the point in getting the vet to do it in the first place then?
I spoke to my vets after querying having to pay for the privilege of having them fill it out incorrectly only to be told that I wasn't allowed to amend a document they had signed and stamped so they had to come out free of charge to redo it.
What a waste of bloody time! |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 4:48:49 PM
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there are parts of the passport regs that say vet must sign, but its to do with medicines given to them. another farce as we all give wormers, and can get other medicines quite easily off the internet or abroad. Experienced horseowners only need a modicum of ocmmon sense to be able to medicate their horses without some newly qualified and inexperienced vet having to be called out and write it up.
A year in prison is stupidly harsh unless she was deliberately faslifying passport stuff to dupe the public. |
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crinks
Gold Member
England
650 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 5:44:13 PM
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Taylor and Pat one newly qualified vet tried to tell me that Crystal was defintely a gelding! She was quite affronted by his remarks she must have been she turned her back lifted her tail and did something quite rude and unladylike in his face........................ he never came back to the yard after that!
I know when we registered Crystal in our names after we bought her, we requested anew marking from as the old one was a bit tatty to say the least, and we filled it in and w#signed it no problem but that was pre passport days!
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PhoenixBoysOtherMummy
Silver Member
England
299 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 6:28:37 PM
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When the passport requirements were being threatended but teh dates kept changing my friend got forms for all 3 horses at her house and we sat and did the markings ourselves, i used his vaccination card (thankfully we have avery horsey vet) as a guide. That was probably 2002, maybe 2003 at the latest. But things have obviously changed since then.
I would make ocntact with DEFRA and ask them to qualify the statement "competent person". |
  
Pics of Smartie Pants by mattymoo ~~~ Penllyn Pirate ~~~~~Phoenix Boy |
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NUTTER
Platinum Member
England
2452 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 7:20:37 PM
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Why cant they have photos ? as when i had appaloosa much simpler....
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Sahir
Gold Member
England
847 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 11:42:56 AM
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When I was ready to register my filly last June (2007) I completed the markings myself, sent all docs to AHS only to have it returned stating that it had to be signed by a vet. I phoned my vet practise asking if they'd sign the cert (with their stamp too - of course)
but they told me that they had to view the filly themselves before signing it, so vet came out looked at the description I'd written down, looked at the filly & added ONE WORD to my description "higher" was the word I'd missed on describing a whorl on her crest. For that priviledge I was charged £34-00 plus a call out fee - a license to print money springs to mind. |
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trinity
Gold Member
Scotland
1126 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 1:33:11 PM
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| To be totally correct, the girl who was sent to prison was actually forging her vets signature on passports and falsifying horses identities! IMO she deserved everything she got. She sold on a dangerous pony for a young child and when the mother quickly realised they had been done returned the pony, and the girl refused to refund the sell. She falsified documents in order to influence the outcome of the trial. She was done for forgery and falsifying evidence. Not for signing her own passports. |
Beck |
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ashabarab
Gold Member
England
1378 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 3:08:09 PM
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for years l have been doing my foals paperwork...now l can not
to add insult to injury l loaned a gelding out for endurance and he was passported while he was away
this passport was done by one of the premium vet colleges in the country and although his paperwork was available they did not bother use it
he is grey, no markings were added and apart from two white hind hooves .he could be any other grey horse in the country today with a white mark on his nose...no mention was done of the pink skin under the white hinds...no facial markings apart from a pink skin on nose..most of his whorls were missed
l was quite horrified when l checked the passport over...a compleate joke...and this is susposed to be able to identify him....l think not........
waste of money IMO
ash |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 5:46:56 PM
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Exactly, I had to correct a vets marking before registering my welsh fillies, and had a work experience student over this summer who is applying to be a vet, wish her luck!
We spent a lot of time doing some vet related things, and especially focused on the identity issue. She had to print out a dozen markings forms and complete them for me for all the horses of mine and nearby. After 'training' someone how to do markings I think it is a total insult to be told a vet has to do it. We also focussed on conformation, fortunatley my friends has some pet minitures who have every fault going between them!
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suneagle
Gold Member
England
727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2008 : 7:50:30 PM
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i think it sounds like a case no one trusting no one here.
shame because if there carrys on being all this hassle and cost over who does what and stuff the breeding might be reduced because of it, shame if it does.
my vet came out to do my horses teeth and i asked him to fill my passport out and he just said so whats he got...? and i told him, even he said to me then, i dont know what societys dont trust abled owners/breeders?. |
clare xxxx |
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Cage Alma Arabians
Bronze Member
England
226 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 3:32:08 PM
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We work in partnership with our vets for the forms and usually try and tie it in with something else, but still a cost that shouldn't be necessary. I've long thought photos would be more accurate anyway.
As for chipping- got mixed feelings about this. As a vet nurse I think they are a great invention, but not keen on the idea with horses really. Worked with a vet who had previously done a lot of horses. He had been called out to a persistantly lame horse. After lots of tests and xrays if was decided the problem was in the knee. An exploratory revealed the identichip, originally placed in the neck muscle, had travelled downwards until it had lodged behind the knee joint causing horrific pain. Vet said chips have to go so deep in the neck muscle to prevent this they often need sedating as the needle is so big (wide bore not just long) and it hurts to put it that deep. Seems unfair to put foals through this- they might end up traumatised indefinitely. Not looking forward to it! |
     
www.cage-alma-arabians.com
Derbyshire. |
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rossami
Junior Member
United Kingdom
49 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 4:55:44 PM
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Just for clarification, each passport issuing office can appoint their own "competent authorities" or many breed socities allow registered owners to mark up their own animals but ultimately it is the decision of each issuing office who is allowed to complete the forms.
From 1st July 2009 ANY animal regardless of age which is presented for a passport must be be microchipped and microchipping is a "vet only" procedure in horses as the chip is inserted into the nucleal ligament in the neck to prevent migration and not under the skin as in dogs/cats etc |
[br][i]Image removed.[/i][br] |
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Di Ellis
Silver Member
United Kingdom
415 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 7:09:43 PM
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I have been doing my markings for registering my foals for over 30 years and over the last couple of years the Vet has checked them and signed them off. However, this year he was not happy and we had to get extra covering certificates from the AHS for him to do them himself as he told me that the rules had changed and they had to do them; basically he was not happy with the way I had done my white markings and whorls. Fortunately the AHS sent out two more certificates direct to him and he did the markings himself and then signed them off and returned them to me so they could be attached to the originals and sent to the AHS. As we have to micro-chip the foals next year anyway - I will leave the forms to the Vet to do at the same time. More and more costs and it really is not worth breeding any more.
I am really worried about micro chipping the foals next year as being on my own my foals are not handled until they are weaned off unless they happen to be exceptionally friendly. When I used to foal down TB mares for a local breeder and the Vet came out to micro-chip them and do their papers - even though they were well handled - they went mad after the chip was shot into their necks and bashed themselves against the walls. I am really not looking forward to them doing it to my lovely Arab foals. |
D.S. Ellis
Somerset
marbonarabians@yahoo.co.uk |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2008 : 7:19:22 PM
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Pat,I totally agree its a definate case of the punishment not fitting the crime,her poor mum now has her grand daughter a very cute ,but lots of hard work,toddler and a 5 week old baby to look after!!
Its just shocking,she should have got community service,but we feel an example was being made just shows how easy it is to get put in jail!Think of how much that will cost us taxpayers,a complete farce.
A cautionary tale! |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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