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brynmarli
Bronze Member
Wales
241 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2008 : 11:19:50 PM
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Hi does anyone know anything about bare foot trimming?
My AA has never had shoes on and has been fab with a normal trim, but about 6 months ago my farrier (conventional farrier) changed slightly the trim and gave a rolled toe.
My boy is trimmed every 5wks and has never had problems ........ until now!!!
He started moving on his feet from heel to toe, and he keeps going lame!
Its so annoying that he keeps going lame and I'm at a loss as to why he goes lame exactly a week after a trim.
Please could anyone shed light on this, as I've missed 2 competitions.
Thanks xx
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Edited by - brynmarli on 05 Sep 2008 11:32:07 PM
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 07:54:31 AM
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Er, change to a barefoot trimmer? I wonder why the farrier decided to change something that was obviously working? Some people on here know I'm not the world's biggest fan of farriers (bad experiences with them) but I do believe if your farrier is doing a good job then there's no need to change. A rolled toe shouldn't cause lameness, I wonder if there's something more going on unrelated to the trim? Heel to toe suggests laminitis problems - low grade perhaps so he's not obviously pottery but is sore. But equally it could be the trim is wrong for him.
Have you spoken to your farrier about this? Stupid question maybe! But I'd ask as many questions as you can of him, find out what he's changed, why, whether he will go back to the old trim, ask if he can shed light on why your horse keeps going lame etc. If he can't or won't answer, then I'd suggest seeing about a barefoot trimmer. But honestly, I'd certainly have a long chat with your existing farrier first as he obviously kept your horse sound before.
Where in Wales are you? Someone on here might know a good trimmer in your area. My trimmer is in Aberaeron, but does travel. |
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Kizzys Mum
Silver Member
England
389 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 08:28:05 AM
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I too have problems with lameness with my horse and farriers (she's shod atm) but I do have a trimmer coming for a consultation next week. I would do as Karon says and ask your farrier first, if he can't or is unwilling to tell you then look into other avenues.
Kira was trimmed once by my farrier and was sore so the barefoot lady will be taking over her care now. |
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Oregana
Bronze Member
176 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 09:12:15 AM
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| A barefoot trimmer is not a trained farrier. I would advise you to be very careful. According to my farrier who also teaches, barefoot trimming is a trim with no shoeing. Why use someone who has not served a farrier apprentice? I do know of a horse that could not walk as the result of a so called trained barefoot trimmer. (I believe they do a few weeks course, but don't have to as as it is legal for anyone to trim a horse's hoof, but not to shoe) The owner was going to have the horse destroyed but a friend of mine took her and she is now improving and no longer is in agony but this is after months. I would not allow one near my yard. (IMO of course) |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 09:28:51 AM
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Oregana, your farrier is wrong. There are a lot of differences between a barefoot trimmer and a farrier - not least of which is a properly trained trimmer should also be able to advise on diet, exercise and conditioning work which, sadly, many farriers ignore the importance of. Not denying there are good farriers out there, but unfortunately they seem to be in short supply in my area.
I'd rather have a trained barefoot trimmer trim my horses than, say, the last "farier" who trimmed mine and left one crippled, one foal scared of farriers, and the others all sore for a week. |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 09:30:11 AM
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| I would discuss the problem with your farrier, just wondering why he decided to roll, he would be my first port of call.Do hope you manage to sort this out, it is so frustrating when you are wanting to compete |
   
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Cate
Platinum Member
Scotland
1785 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 09:33:31 AM
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| I use a barefoot farrier, one who was a conventional farrier and who changed to barefoot and trained with Jaime Jackson in the US, and giving a rolled toe should not lame your horse. I agree with karon there might be somthing more going on. |
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Oregana
Bronze Member
176 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 09:52:27 AM
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[right]Originally posted by Karon
Oregana, your farrier is wrong.
I have absolute faith in my farrier and am very lucky to have one of the best in the business who has also worked extensively for a veterinary hospital. As I said IMO only, but if anyone is going to mess with my horses feet, they are definately going to have the correct amount of years training, pass the relevant exams and served the apprenticeship. There really are some horror stories out there as a result of barefoot trimmers. (I am not saying that there are no bad farriers) It must be hell though to not be able to get a good farrier. I have had my share in the past of waiting and no one turns up or answers the phone. A friend in anther area has found it almost impossible to get her pony trimmed because no one wants to visit just one. |
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Kizzys Mum
Silver Member
England
389 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 11:13:11 AM
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I was engaged to a farrier a year ago (we split) having been with him for 7yrs, I have supported him through his training and helped with his revision etc. I spoke to him frequently about barefoot trimming and he fully supports many of the well known schools of trimming and said that many a farrier could learn from it.
He is a skilled farrier and I really appreciate him, however because my youngster is without shoes and most farriers see shoes as a natural progression, I decided to get a trimmer in to care for her feet and get my farrier to keep an eye as he will probably still shoe for my other mare for the meantime.
There is a lot more training involved with both farriers and barefoot trimmers than most people know |
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Goldenmane
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4964 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 11:30:07 AM
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| I would also suggest that your vet and farrier should work together, as professionals, if there is a problem with a lame horse. |
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Edited by - Goldenmane on 06 Sep 2008 11:31:01 AM |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 11:33:43 AM
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I agree one hundred percent with Oregana. I realise I am lucky though in having a wonderful farrier. I think the scarcity of good farriers in some areas may lead to barefoot trimmers getting a "foot hold" on the market, but I would never let one near my horses' feet.
Goldenmane's advice is the same as I would give re a lame horse. |
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Edited by - Zan on 06 Sep 2008 11:35:09 AM |
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brynmarli
Bronze Member
Wales
241 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 10:36:13 PM
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Hi thanks for the replies.
Already thought of laminitis but as he not on excessive food and is in regular work, very fit and competitions I ruled that out.
Yes my farrier is good and one of the ones you can talk to.
I called him out to see my boy lame. We trotted him up on concrete which he wasnt happy but did do it, we then took him in the field and he did his amazing floaty arab trot, we then took him on a stoney surface and he didnt trot at all - refused.
That's when my farrier said it was definately in his feet. He also did a pressure test on his feet, flexion test, checked for injury and gravel, and also checked for laminitis - but nothing was wrong.
He has suggested growing the walls of the hoof down so there is more space between the sole and the road surface. Which I agree with. And he also does not really want to put shoes on if we can help it.
How much roll could there be on the front of the hoof and do all horses with no shoes need one??
My gut feeling says grow wall of hoof down, grow rolled toe out, take minimal amount off when trimming and go from there.
Does anyone know about this heel to toe movement, that I have heard barefoot trimmers say is the natural gate of a horse - which I cant actual see. I also have heard some real horror stories about barefoot trimmers but I dont know of any and have never used one and as with everything there are good ones and bad ones.
Thanks 
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 10:55:09 PM
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All the court cases in the news over the last couple of years have related to Strasser-trained trimmers. The Strasser trim can be quite invasive and involves paring the sole and re-shaping the foot quite radically in some cases. So steer clear I guess.
I wonder if your farrier has tried to improve his trim, taking into account some information he has gained about barefoot trimming, but not got the whole picture? When you look at the foot, does it look as if maybe he hasn't left enough toe? So that when the front of the hoof does come down, the sole strikes the ground rather than protective hoof. Your description sounds very similar to what happened with two of my ponies after my farrier "dumped" their toes on the fronts, which is making me wonder. I think my farrier did it because he considered I was getting them trimmed too often and to make it last longer. But as they were both barefoot working ponies it was a bit of a blow.
I would give your farrier a chance to deal with it, sounds like growing the hoof down should help, but it needs to be maintained in balance.
A "mustang roll" should never cause lameness, it is just a sort of bevel of the edges of the hoof, put on to help prevent flare.
I am now using a really good barefoot trimmer, but you do need to get one with a good reputation. She has studied with KC La Pierre and Jamie Jackson. Her trim is quite different to the one the farrier does, and as she's been coming for about 9 months there is less and less for her to do, and the hooves are growing down nicely in alignment with bone inside the hooves and just needd a bit of a rasp when they get long. |
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brynmarli
Bronze Member
Wales
241 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 11:13:22 PM
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Crystal Fire - that is exactly what has happen with the toe and I do think farrier is -may be, trying a bit too hard.
He used to take off, ooo, less than a mm off, and I would think 'is it really worth you coming' but the last few times its been more coming off, which got the gut feeling started!!
Do you know anythink about the heel - toe movement? I've looked at my other horse who just has a normal trim and he puts his foot down flat on the floor.
Thanks |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 11:13:30 PM
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I can only go on my experience - farrier shod/trimmed, frequently lame horses and my ex-endurance horse facing retirement from work completely at age 12. Barefoot trimmed - sound horses, ex-endurance horse in regular work and staying sound. My ex-farrier was highly recommended by vets locally - for remedial work both shoeing and trimming, but apart from his attitude to my horses (very bad) he also sent out apprentices to trim who, to be honest, hadn't got a clue about one end of a horse from another. I've since heard some very bad reports about one particular apprentice he'd trained.
I would definitely have another talk with your farrier, and see what you can sort out. Think your gut feeling is right intially and see how things go. |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 11:36:20 PM
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Do you know what? I didn't examine how my lot were walking (negligent of me!), but what happened was we set out for a ride as usual, and turned back because they were so obviously uncomfortable. My suspicion though is that your horse is going heel-first just because toe-first is ouchy. I suppose most of us try to avoid sore bits on our feet (summer sandals anyone??).
I had been a bit concerned about the trim when I looked at it, because the toes looked sort of squared off, and they had always looked nice and round before. So if you can sort of visualise what it looked like underneath... at the sides you could see the hoof all round nicely, with white line and then the sole, but at the fronts you couldn't see the sort of "border" of the hoof.
I'm afraid that was my farrier's last visit, becauseI knew he'd done it out of impatience with me. I don't mind paying for more regular trims if needed, but he obviously thought my 3 were too much trouble. The trimmer came every 6 weeks at first, and then it's longer intervals when the hooves start to look after themselves, and also in the winter.
My problem at the moment is soft soles because of all this rain! I may have to get boots. Which could be another option for you, so you can ride while the hooves recover. |
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Karon
Gold Member
England
1411 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 10:03:24 AM
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Avoiding landing on the toe could be he's taken too mcuh toe off - take off that crescent of sole near the front of the foot and the horse is going to be sore I would think.
I know what you mean about soft soles, Crsytal Fire, I'm having to boot two of mine to ride at the moment but then we do have stones the size of small housees round this area! Boots are excellent to invest in though. |
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Crystal Fire
Junior Member
England
43 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 9:00:28 PM
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Celebrity has "interestingly shaped" feet, and I've struggled to sort out any boots to fit him. I am considering changing him to Red Horse Bedding. http://www.red-horse.co.uk/redbed08.html
For the two who live out, it may be boots, we will have to see. |
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loosefur
Gold Member
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 9:18:53 PM
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| This debate seems to roll round every few months. There are good and bad farriers and good and bad barefoot trimmers. Personally I have a great farrier, does a fab job shoeing my boys, treats the horses well, always turns up when he says he will and even rings 30 minutes before his eta. He keeps up to date with latest developments and doesn't let his apprentices do anything unless under his supervision. However I know he's quite a rare find! The one thing I would add to the argument that whilst it's true that farriers have to undergo a long and extensive training period and pass rigorous exams there is no requirement for them to do any further training/updating knowledge or skills once they have qualified. Continous Professional Development is important in all careers and the scientific knowledge behind the treatment of horses' feet has grown hugely over the years (as with all aspects of horse care). There are too many older farriers out there who have no interest in updating their knowledge or skills - and will continue to shoe the way they were taught even if that way was twenty years ago and has long since been improved upon. Also people can get lazy or greedy and have too many clients leading to bad workmanship and rush jobs. So it's all well and good justifying using a farrier over a bare foot trimmer because of the lengthy (five year) training period but it's still no guarantee that the person is still doing the best job he can. Until CPD is a legal requirement for all farriers we will continue to have lots of bad ones out there. |
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brynmarli
Bronze Member
Wales
241 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 10:24:00 PM
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I've just looked up 'mustang roll' on the internet and did you know that mustangs on hard ground - rocks, have the roll, and mustangs on soft ground dont, as the roll is formed from the constant wear on the rocks but the roll isnt just at the front its round the hoof and is.....well only about 2 or 3mm high. But the soft ground mustangs need the sharpness of the hoof to cut into the ground. All makes sense and easy you may say, BUT has the wet summer we've had now changed the way my boy is on his feet????
That gut feeling definately saying back to basics and go from there....he's my horse and I now know what I want from my farrier, who I must say again is one of the good guys. Always on time - always has a smile - very calm with my boys - and I can talk to him.
Thanks for you input - thought I was going mad and didnt know what to do really for the best.
By the way rode today in the field and Mr perfect (****, only joking - luv him really!!) is back in business. No lameness and doing that fab dressage bounce he does so well. |
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DenmoorStud
Gold Member
739 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2008 : 10:46:28 PM
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Good to hear things have improved for Mr Perfect, will look forward to hearing how you get on as I imagine you will
be competing again soon. |
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Kazhak
Silver Member
Australia
352 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 01:05:59 AM
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Hey brynmarli what a great peice of info, I don't put a big brumbie roll on my boys feet, now I know why I don't need to thanx lol - just a thought maybe your farrier cut him back a bit far so his feet were a bit tender - it can happen - as what just happened was the hard protective horn was just cut away & left soft tender fresh horn with no protective cover
here in Australia theres an Endurance Rider by the name of Jenny Clingly, she has been an ambassador for barefoot trimming & Barefoot Endurance riding here in Australia, her & her horse Imaj Zamir have done an inordinate amount of kms barefoot without serious issue,
Jenny Clingly & Jeremy Ford, (Please look these guys up on the web) have done a lot of Study into horse posture & feet & diet they have studied many different types of feet they have spent years perfecting the information we know about barefoot horses, & learning to be a barefoot trimmer is not just about a weeks worth of training...they have also studied tradional methods to, even I have
I used to ride barefoot with my mare, but due to a "Convenience" thing (my old macs fell apart 2 weeks before an enduro ride) I chose to shoe her it was the worst mistake I could ever have made, 1 of her legs kept swelling up, not to serious but enough for her to be stiff on it for a couple of days after a ride.
Eventually I pulled her last set of shoes off myself, as I could not get my Farrier back because he was uncontactable she is now barefoot again without any problems, I ride & File her feet myself
My Stallion has never had a set of shoes & I have only used easyboots on 1 ride, he will never have steel jammed into his perfect feet.. & its easy to keep him trimmed (we get a free one from the council whenever I think my boy needs it) & a file from me to keep them looking nice
Yes Farriers Do years of training, but most of what they learn is traditional thinking, & not very forward, I was lucky for a while My farrier was young & was using his noggin & studying different thinking, still in the end what ended our partnership in feet was that I couldn't get him back because of the big money from doing thoroughbreds at the race stables..
I wish I hadn't lost the pictures I had taken of my boys feet when we were in heavy training, they stopped wearing off & became very Shiny & hard on the bottom, & he could pretty much run over anything, I'm glad I learnt about barefoot stuff before starting riding with my Stallion as I was able to recognise his potential, he had been training his own feet since he was a foal
Still I save a lot of money (thanx to the council) lol
anyways sorry I waffled on for so long but I wanted to share my success story over barefoot riding
& offer a bit more info for the debate
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Kirsty5278
Platinum Member
England
2682 Posts |
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kimzi
Gold Member
865 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2008 : 11:11:52 AM
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| OK slightly to a tangent, why do chiropodists/podiatrists now have to be licensed and registered and properly qualified? Answer because of all the self read toenail trimmers doing hatchett jobs and crippling people, at the end of a day i would expect anyone doing anyform of foot, hoof or paw care to be thoroughly educated (years not weeks or months and have full understanding of the physiology of creature treated)at the end of the day no foot no horse. The wcf regulate farriers, who regulates barefoot trimmers would i have a bona fide point of call before my solicitor when it went wrong? |
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