| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 1:23:25 PM
|
I have been reading some of my books this morning and came across a quote I would like to share with you
W.G. Palgrave discribing the horses of king IBN Saoud of NEJD in 1862 WRITES :
Never have I seen or imagined so lovely a collection. Their stature was indeed somewhat low; I do not think any were above 15 hands ; 14 hands appeared to me about their average; but they were so exquisitly well-shaped that want of greater size seemed hardly, if at all a defect. a little, a very little saddle-backed, just the curve which indicates springiness without weakness;a head broad above and tapering down to to a nose fine enough to verify the phrase of "drinking from a pint pot". A most intelligent and yet singularly gentle look, full eye, sharp thornlike little ear, legs fore and hind that seemed as if made of hammered iron, so clean and yet so well twisted with sinew: a neat round hoof, just the requisite for hard ground; a tail set on or rather thrown out in a perfect arch; coats smooth, shining and light; mane long but not overgrown nor heavy. the prevailing colour was grey or chestnut, but if asked the specially distinctive points of the Nejdee horse , I should reply the slope of the shoulder the extreme cleanness of the shank, and the rounded haunch, though every other part too has a perfection and harmony unwitnessed ( at least in my eyes anywhere else.) their appearence justifies ALL reputation, all value, all poetry. 
My veiw is that no matter how small , an Arab carries his rider with grace and dignity,( quote from Lynda free.)
another small quote which to my mind sums up the order of the arabian horse, written by sir James Penn Boucaut early in the 20th century writes;
"An inpure breed could never have maintained its essential sameness and chariteristics so uniformaly and so universally praised an animal which was not of surpassing excellence. If he pass away by human folly, you will never see his like again"
( here in lies the truth)
|
   
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
Edited by - LYNDILOU on 04 Jul 2006 09:29:00 AM
|
|
Report to moderator
|
|
|
Heather Brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
682 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 1:42:52 PM
|
Well done Lynda, some lovely and inspiring quotes with which I would agree totally. Harmony and balance are the ingrediants to a superior weight bearing and functional horse as well as being within type as opposed to 'off type'. As Mike has said before with increased size usually comes longer cannon bones and IMO a loss of 'classic' Arabian type and as for the desire for extreme 'elegance' this usually cones with shallow girths, long cannons and unshapely necks. JMO
By the way Lynda congrats with Res. Champion Venus yesterday, thought she looked lovely.
Heather |
    
|
Report to Moderator  |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
|
|
Heather Brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
682 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:11:21 PM
|
| Well we love her I would have been happy to have been reserve to your girl though H |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:12:25 PM
|
| Size doesnt matter if you horse is never ridden or you are 5 foot 2 and 8 stone. Otherwise it does! Have noticed (AV Arabian visit) lots of Arab owners are small and glamorous (made me feel huge at 5ft 4) On the other hand my horse is 14 3inches on his tippy toes and carries me with perfect ease. I should imagine if you are selling ridden arabs this rather restricts the market, hence 16 hand arabs (and why shouldnt taller people have arabs?)Yes I know someone is going to say that 14 hand horses carried bit fat men in the desert, but probably if you were 6 foot tall you'd feel a tiny bit silly on your pony. The ads on the sale page bear this out..'will make at least 15 hands, 15.2 at 3years old etc' Oddly enough they dont worry about size in Iceland when large blokes are proud to ride small 'horses', so maybe its fashion. |
   
West Sussex |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
joanna_piana
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3935 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:24:00 PM
|
| You don't have to be that small Julia! I was jumping my 13hh pony yesterday and i'm 5'7 and ten stone and she had no problem. Shida is 14.3 and personally I wouldn't want anything over 15hh cause it gives me vertigo!! |
      
Harthall Rashida RIP, Binley Ishara, Bouchan
Chorleywood, Hertfordshire |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:35:03 PM
|
I've got to disagree that tall people need 16 hand Arabs. My son was over 6ft. in his teens and rode our 14.2 mare often twice a day! She carried him with ease, and he loved riding her. People who like a big horse (not necessarily an Arab) quite often have a self image problem! An Arabs self carriage, neck set and length of stride makes it feel much bigger than it measures, it is a shame breeders feel the need to satisfy the desire of those who may not be as experienced with Arabs to produce bigger all the time. A smaller animal was bred for centuries, to suit its origins, why should be make every effort to change that?
My Tsunami baby was sold at a day old, his mum is 14.2 and he will be quite a lot taller, legs her length at birth, new owner is 5ft 9 or so and hopes he wont grow too tall! |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Heather Brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
682 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:35:44 PM
|
Well sorry I have to disagree, feeling silly is not the right reason to breed Arabs bigger than what they should be! You could say I want a 16HH Paso Fino but not possible.
If you want a bigger horse with Arab blood get a well conformed Anglo or part-bred otherwise enjoy the feeling of a horse riding much bigger than what it is with strength, balance, harmony and heart by getting a well conformed Arabian.
Anyway, I am sure there are good Arabs that are bigger and well conformed but these are IMO less common and unfortunately too much emphasis on size seems to be pushing Arabian breeding where it shouldn't be - for me!!
BTW I am not saying all Arabs should be 14HH I believe the standard range is something like 14:1-14:3 1/2 of which is a perfectly good range of height to ride. I would look at horses above and below these limits but if significantly I would look with more care as to why they were outside this range - I always look at how balanced a horse is. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Debbie
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1138 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 2:36:46 PM
|
| When I lived on Bodmin moor as a teenager, it was a common site to see the farmers riding across the moors on 12.2hh/13hh ponies, to go and round up their stock. Also my 6'1" tall husband regularly used to ride my 15.hh Arab stallion and Banshada carried him with ease right up until 6 months prior to his death at 25!! |
Debbie
   |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 3:13:28 PM
|
| That is not true sweetie you are small and very glamerous! do you know you can have small horses with longer legs and you can have big horses on short legs? the latter looks really silly ! the horse should look in perfect balance to look right, an experienced eye can see right away which I am sure you all have |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
nikki
Platinum Member
Wales
4384 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 3:17:11 PM
|
O.k i'm 5'8", long legs, short body! Odly enough my sister, full blood, is same height, short legs, long body! Weird!
However don't forget the Bahraini arab, they don't breed for size, fashion etc, just by tradition! And bahraini arabs are rather big, going up to 16hh, no long cannons, and deep through the girth, no not typey, but they never were anyway! Or is it, arabs have got typeyer!
To sum it up, arabs can be any height, as long as it doesn't affect conformation etc.
However to give the best ride, a well placed shoulder with length of rein. My mare is smaller than my gelding, but rides alot bigger. Difference both have good shoulders, but the mare has an icredible length of rein. Gives the feeling of riding a 17hh horse, teriffic balance, and to feel her move underneath you, is truely amazing. If i can breed a few riding horses like her... |
pagey |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 4:44:13 PM
|
There is something about riding Arabs they truly are different to other breeds. I have a welsh Sec D mare who I have owned for 12 years, she gave me back my confidence after a nasty accident on a warmblood, but she is completely different to my arab boy. She is safe but sometimes can pull like a train, whereas the arab is very light and responds to the smallest aid. I think sometimes it can be likened to driving a car with power steering (arab) without (cobs, and some other breeds). I am 5ft 8 and weigh just over 10st I feel quite happy riding a 13.2 hh pony or a 15.2 horse it has never bothered me.
Nicky |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Pasha
Platinum Member
England
3622 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 4:54:25 PM
|
My Mum owned a beautiful Arab gelding over 20 years ago who was full-up 16 hands. She is a stickler for type and correct conformation. Pasha is 15.2hh and prior to him my mum owned a 15.1hh mare. Personally I wouldn't want any smaller. I am 5'6" and weigh 9.5 stone (and I do ride ponies when I play Polo). It's probably more personal preference but I don't think there is anything wrong with breeding for height if you maintain type and conformation.
I've seen loads of 14-14.3hh arabs with cow hocks, very narrow chests etc etc so it's not all about height |
    |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 5:10:27 PM
|
I think standards should be adhered to. When breeders start dabbling with the idea of perfecting or keeping in with the market, all sorts of nasties happen. For instance I had a Persian cat years ago that I rescued because, bless her, she had awful breathing problems as a result of breeders trying to get the nose as flat as possible inline with the forehead. I had her from 9months until her heart failed her at 12(I wonder why?)and I know she had a wonderful life considering what mankind had done to her.
As for riding an arab. My friend took Freddie out one day (she has a cob) and brought him back (walking him) saying she couldnt ride him!!!! Yet I have never felt as safe and wouldnt ride anything else, in fact never have and probably never will! (Not that I am biased in anyway ha ha)
Sandie
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 7:13:18 PM
|
I agree that one shouldn't breed 'for' height, any more than one should breed 'for' any one characteristic (colour, speed, dishy faces, etc.), at the expense of others (particularly when it is at the expense of good conformation  ).
But I don't think that there is any sort of inverse relationship between height and type - I've seen lots of very typey horses of all heights (including some beautiful 16hh ones, such as Crusader , and Psynergy) and lots of off-type ones of all heights too (I won't name any, for obvious reasons).
I'm small (5ft5) and lightweight (6st2) (although not at all glamorous! ) but I still prefer to ride a horse of 15.2 or thereabouts, and I prefer Arabs that look like horses, not ponies. But these are just my preferences - and there's enough variation in the breed to accommodate everyone's preferences.
Providing a little extra height can be achieved without sacrificing any type or soundness, I don't see why breeders should not produce slightly bigger Arabs. I know that small Arabs can carry tall/heavy riders, and I know that most Arabs 'ride' bigger than they are, but taller people do often feel uncomfortable riding little horses, so having a few larger ones (with type and good conformation) is surely a good thing, as it encourages more people to ride Arabs? JMO, of course, and I'm not an expert. |
 |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Heather Brown
Gold Member
United Kingdom
682 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 7:28:38 PM
|
| I could name some that, in my opinion, are very big and 'off-type' but obviously I won't. There is more to 'type' than having a pretty head. I prefer an 'Arab' to look like an 'Arab' with all their 'typical' attributes. However, as I have put before I wouldn't dismiss a horse for being larger if it fits my criteria the same as any other, I just don't think it is a positive to put too much emphasis on this and we could do with a bit more emphasis on balance and structure. JMO Heather |
|
Edited by - Heather Brown on 03 Jul 2006 7:51:48 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
kizzy
Bronze Member
Scotland
228 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 7:33:34 PM
|
| For me height would not be an issue if I was only looking to show or hack my arab. As it stands I would like a horse to compete, be able to jump in horse classes, and compete BE, so therefore must be at least 14.3hh, but preferably slightly taller. I personally feel horses perform better witha rider that isn't too big - in general. So I can fully understand why people want bigger arabs if they are looking for a performance horse that is a purebred. |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Caro23
Gold Member
United Kingdom
617 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 08:28:43 AM
|
| My Harwood bred mare Dulciya (Kasadi x Lusinda) is just 14.2hh - I am always surprised that I get comments about how small she is. So it is interesting to read your comments Lynda - thanks Dulcie is strong and athletic despite her size and once I am on her I never feel she is small. |
Caro
     |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
LYNDILOU
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
13976 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 09:25:59 AM
|
| Way back in the late 60's early seventies, I knew a man who was 16 stone and rode a 14hand Arab stallion, he was a good rider and drove horses for films and did extra work also for films riding, when he Rode his arab I never saw such an elegant outline he looked graceful and the horse carried him proudly. he went hunting with him often and I never saw the horse sweating or over stressed from any ride he returned from. I am not going to advocate that all arabs should be smaller indeed I have arabs of 14.2 to 16 hands ! but size should really not matter as long as the horse is in proportion, he will give you many years of good riding in what ever disipline he is asked to perform, because he is after all, AN ARABIAN! |
www.dreamfield-arabians.com |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
katefox1812
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1612 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 09:47:59 AM
|
Originally posted by Heather BrownI could name some that, in my opinion, are very big and 'off-type' but obviously I won't. There is more to 'type' than having a pretty head. I prefer an 'Arab' to look like an 'Arab' with all their 'typical' attributes. However, as I have put before I wouldn't dismiss a horse for being larger if it fits my criteria the same as any other, I just don't think it is a positive to put too much emphasis on this and we could do with a bit more emphasis on balance and structure. JMO Heather
Heather, I agree with all of this - we should never put too much emphasis on any single attribute, and height should never be achieved at the expense of other qualities, such as type (by which I mean a lot more than just a pretty head!), balance, structure and the hard, clean, strong legs for which the breed is (or used to be) renowned (to the extent that for me they should be included in any definition of 'type').
Having said that, do you not think that IF a bit of extra height can be achieved without sacrificing ANY of these important qualities (and the many examples of beautiful big Arabs suggest that this is possible), then this would be good for the breed, as more people would be likely to ride Arabs, and compete on them against other breeds?
I say this even as the former owner of a relatively small (just 15.1) pure-bred stallion, who competed in affiliated eventing, show-jumping and dressage - as well as hunter trials and drag-hunting - carrying a 6ft male rider, who with saddle weighed 13 stone! Yes, this horse coped admirably - he did well and was never lame once in 10 years of competition - but had he been 16hh, it would have been easier for both him and his rider, and he might have done even better.
I would love to see beautiful, typey, balanced, well-conformed 16hh pure-bred Arabs competing at top international level in all disciplines! I am genuinely interested to know how others (especially experienced and expert breeders like Heather) would feel about this. Would it be 'wrong', even if the height were achieved without any loss of type or other qualities?
BTW, I have no personal vested interest or axe to grind here: my colt is unlikely to make 16hh - probably about 15.2, which is ideal for me as a small rider. |
|
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
joycemelvin
Platinum Member
Scotland
1574 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 10:17:52 AM
|
The only attribute that I feel is totally important no matter what breed is temperament, sometimes this is too often over looked.
My mare Shamila Amira is only 14.2 but due to having a terrific front you feel that you have so much more horse underneath you. She also has a fabulous temperament.
I've ridden larger horses that ride smaller caus they have nothing up front. |
jhm68@btinternet.com
      |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 7:20:20 PM
|
| Last year I turned my mare and foal out to grass with a friends pony mare. The day the pony was dropped off the haulier was watching my mare strutt her stuff with his jaw on the ground. He was truly impressed at her moves and elevation and asked "How tall is she 16hh!" to which I replied with a huge grin 14.1hh |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 9:08:47 PM
|
Really interesting to read your comments on 'size' ! What I would point out is that evolution does have a part to play in Arabs getting taller. If you look at the comments you have referred to Lynda, they were written in 1862, and if you like looking at historical buildings, ie doorways etc, people were quite short then
If you take the arab from the sparse desert and feed him well, over the years he will get a bit taller. Bit like humans.
So I reckon we have to make an allowance for this to happen.
To breed specifically for a taller arab is nuts, but who am I to say what anyone should or shouldn't breed for? as has been said we need the overall balanced arab.
Hooray for Joyce to mention temperament,
What is interesting, on a judges course some years ago, we had to mark a class of arabs all were differing heights, one especially, I thought was stunning, but very small, about 14 hands. I liked it and put it fairly well up in my class, but found out later that the examiners said it was 'off type' for being too small.
So it is also interesting that our 'show arabs' seem to be getting taller.
At a show recently, a class of yearlings came in and I thought they were the three year olds, they were so big!! the steward said,"we breed em big up ere"
|
Edited by - SueB on 04 Jul 2006 9:14:21 PM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 06:00:12 AM
|
There has always been the odd unusually tall horse, Riffal was 16h as was El Shaklan rather more recently, whilst Rijm and Gharib were taller still However even Lady Wentworth found that getting quality, refinement, type, balance and height in one horse is incredibly difficult I don't personally believe that extra height for its own sake is something that should be pursued, not even by breeders of Lady W's calibre
Mike |
Edited by - Mike on 05 Jul 2006 06:02:38 AM |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 08:18:14 AM
|
Thanks for mentioning Lady W, not only studs as long ago as her and others did try to get extra height in their breeding, as well as trying to keep the balance and harmony etc, there are still studs around just trying to get that extra height
I find many arabs 'seem' to be tall, when in actual fact if you measure them properly, then they would shrink before your eyes! Don't you think that arabs have the ability to grow just by the 'peacock' effect they have, especially just as you enter that ring
How many prospective purchasers have been dissapointed to travel miles to find the 15 hand arab is in fact 14.2.
I am only 5.5 tall, and find the 15 hand arab more than tall enough for me. But then not everyone is me |
| Report to Moderator |
|
|
Topic |
|
Topic Locked 